Multi-Beings

[Master Vigil]

MV , all that I said is that there are those who have made that connection . Personally , I'm not getting into that because 1) I don't know enough about mental science 2) mental science is ... well , hardly a science . They don't seem to be able to agree on much , and it is always changing , depending upon the favour of the week , or so it appears

I agree. Even criteria for mental illness is constantly changing. I wonder when the DSM IV will become the DSM V. Even the DSM IV has been changed hundreds of times already.

 

[kreeden]

I have came across a New Age concept called " Huna ". It is based upon Hawiian beliefs , and is very close to my concept of our three " realities ", and three asspects of our being . { although I do disagree on many of the divisions they make , it is as close to how I view the world as anything I have yet found } .

 

[YmirGF]

Dear Kreeden and Master Vigil.

I just want to say that I have a profound respect for your ideas. Bravo.

 

[kreeden]

I'm still forming my " ideas ". But thank you YmirGF .

It just seems to me that there are so many aspects of what we call reality . Some people say that time is an illusion , others say that life it's self is an illusion . To me , everything is an illusion , in some ways , and yet , everything is very real in other ways . So , for me , it is easier to break reality into ... different aspects . Like time has real meaning in a physical sense , much less meaning in a mental sense , and no meaning in a Spiritual sense . .....

Did I just say that makes it easier for me to understand it ??? Oh well , it seems to work for me .

 

[1nharmony]

The Spiritual . The Mind is so Subjective , and it is the mind that connects us to the Spiritual , as well as the Physical , that I'm not going to try to explain it . All that I'm going to say here is that it IS NOT a different place . It is a Reality that we live in everyday , along with the Realities of the Physical and the Mental beings that we are . Oh yes , we belong to all three Realities . Exist in them simultanceously . But I'm not telling you anything new here , am I ?

Now , since we exist in these three realities , would it not make sense that we develope different personalities to deal with each ? Different personas ? Hell , most of us develope different personas to deal with the Physical Reality . The Mental Reality has even more , as it connects with more and things are more abstract . Jung's Archetypes just start to slim the surface , I think . And in the Spiritual , well the only limitations we have are those we bring with us from the Mental or Physical .

Anyway , on the edges of the area where our minds and the physical overlap we encounter things that we don't deal every well with . Experiences and the like . But we still have to deal with them . And that is where our different personas come into play , I think . For excample , we can be a man { or woman , or both at times } , a husband , businessperson , protector , whatever . Do we cope with which of these things in the same way ? No . We are very different people when we are confronting a person who backed their car into our car , then we are when we are sharing a loving moment with a loved one { at else I hope that we are } . And the more extreme the encounter , the more extreme the persona we use .

Of course , we are only using those personality treats that are best for each situation , but that is my point . We are mutli-leveled beings who enteract on a multi-leveled Reality .

First let me say that I am a big fan of "typos" and kreeden, you have created a classic in the first quote. You said that we exist in all three Realities (Physical, Mental, Spiritual) "simultanceously". Now, I know what you meant to say, but my mind read this as "simul-tenaciously" and the concept appeared to me of a somewhat tenuous co-existence in the three realms. Which leads me to ask, do you think our co-existence in these Realities is harmonious or confrontational? Your implication that we create different personas, or character traits, for different situations in our lives as well as the three different aspects of our lives suggests to me an unfriendly relationship within our Realities. In the second quote you again imply that we have what I will term "situational personas", that we are different people according to whatever we are experiencing at the moment. I disagree with you there on the grounds that our emotions change according to our surroundings, but not our personality.

But as far as having different persona for each Reality, well, that's a very interesting concept. But again I will disagree. I think each Reality merely reflects a different aspect of the overall character or personality of the individual. The Indians have a saying, "As within, so without." That is to say, whatever goes on within a person (mentally and/or spiritually) will become expressed outwardly as well. So if you are quick-tempered, then you will be prone to react physically to angry emotions. If you have a quiet spirit, you will react calmly and reasonably.

Yes, we are multi-leveled beings, but we interact with others predominately in the physical and mental/emotional realms. I cannot say that I have ever interacted with another being in the spiritual realm. I think I would like to, though!

I recognize that this is thread is a bit old, but I am new to the forum and found it quite intriguing. Thank you for posting it.

 

[kreeden]

I am sorry that I have not noticed your post untill now 1nharmony . I do tend to loss things on this forum .

To try and answer your questions , I believe that existing on these " realities " simultaneously can be both harmonious and confrontational , depending upon how " balanced " we are . For excample , if the " Physical Self " is always fighting with the " Mental Self " for some self gratifying need , or if the Mind is always deniling the Body such needs , then yes , it is very confrontational .

In the same way that Chakra points have to be " balanced ", so do the three " Realities " , in my opinion . If any one over balances another in any way , then we have problems .

It isn't so much that we are different people . I believe that we are different persona that make up one person . Jungian persona . Although our surroundings may effect our emotions , it is our emotions that bring out these persona . Once a persona is out in the open , it often colours our surroundings . The Jungian " Child " for excample . Once the Child is in play , then we will view all of our surroundings throught the eyes of the Child , untill we get control of the Child , or another " Archetype " takes it's place .

Now I dislike using Jung , as I really don't understand his work all that well and have had it pointed out to me before ... But even if I am disunderstanding him , the above excample is the easiest way I know of explaining what I mean . So please , try not to get too caught up in the terms of psychology here .

How I agree that to a large degree , we create our own " realities ". " As within , so without ". But the flip side to that would be " As without , so within ". There comes a point where we have to admit that " NO man is an island ". Time for excample . No matter how much we deny that Time is anything other then a concept , we grow older ... Time moves on with or without us . What does our " personality " have to do with Time ? Can we stop Time ?

Sorry . If I continue along those lines I will get very side-tracked . Cause and Effect is a better excample to use here . What is " within " before we have any interaction with the " without ". It all adds up to make us what we are . And of course our " Free Will " allows us to take what we are given and create our personality .

You see , it is all about how all of these things that appear to contradict each other actually do fit into our lifes . And understanding that is how the harmony is created out of the chaos .

Yes , we do spend most of our time in the physical world . Some may spend more in the mental world . { although I don't think that all emotions come from the mental world }. But we are also touched by the Spiritual while wandering aimlessly in this physical world . And all that I am trying to do is to put into my own words how this can be . Why ? Because a Raven told me that I should ...

Thank you for your post 1nharmony . I hope to hear your reply to the above .

 

[1nharmony]

kreeden, your PM helped me learn something new on this site - how to track down my own posts in my Profile. Wasn't sure I'd be able to find the thread otherwise!

I think our three Realities are in continuous interaction with each other. But I wouldn't say that my body "fights" with my mind over an extra chocolate chip cookie. In order to have the health I desire, my mind knows that an apple is better suited to that craving. The only battle, if any occurs, is in my mind over which one I desire more, good health or another cookie? My body, truly, is not capable of battling with my mind since it is subject to whatever decision my mind determines to act upon.
I feel that we may struggle in any (or all :faint: ) of our Realities independently, but interaction between them within ourselves is harmonious. My reason for thinking this is that we usually try to find ways to ease our struggles. If we are struggling with a physical problem we try to find ways that will help. Mentally we may research our problem. Spiritually we may pray or meditate. Sometimes we may find solution to our struggle within the same reality (such as physical therapy for a physical problem and psychotherapy for a mental problem).

In regards to creating our own realities I find myself asking this question. Can our physical reality create a mental struggle? (Or any other such combination?) Technically I would say no. I think any struggle is created within its own reality. If I get mad at someone for cutting me off on the highway, my mental struggle is created by my response to the physical reality, not the reality itself. It is within the realm of my mental Reality that the struggle has been created.

Balancing the three Realities is a difficult concept for me. How would that balance be known? By a lack of struggle?

On to the Jungian persona. I don't know Jung, only of him, and have not read his work. So let me just respond to this concept of having different persona making up the whole person. I agree that we put on different "masks" according to the variety of public situations we interact in each day. But not different personalities. If you had someone who knows you well follow you for a few days and comment upon your interactions they would say "You were kind to this person. You got very angry one day. You seemed bored when he was talking to you." The thing you would NOT hear them tell you is "Wow! You acted so different I didn't even know you!" Do you see what I mean? Sure we act different in a variety of situations,but we don't change.

Thanks for PMing me. I've been wondering how to keep track of my posts!

 

[kreeden]

That is a trick I sometimes use to find " lost " threads too . By going to my profile and checking out my posts . This forum is huge ...

Ok . I agree that on one level the " self " is one . I mean , my physical body does not " think " as such . However , just how much info is imprinted into our DNA is debatible . Instincts and the like . I do have a hard time deciding where these " instincts " end and emotions start . But for the sake of arguement , I have given my " body " a voice , a mind of it's own if you will .

Our Realities are in continuous interaction with each other . Which is what makes up the " self " as a whole . And being diabetic , I think that the " Body " has a very load voice at times . Using your excample , the " Body " doesn't really want a cookie , it wants something sweet . And by making the trade off from the cookie to the sweet apple can work . The " Mind " can train the " Body ". And that is where we can find conflict . If the Mind trys to push the Body too far . An extreme excample of this would be an addict . I am also a smoker , so I can say that is another battle that my Body wins over my Mind . I know that smoking is not good for me , but my Body is addicted and DEMANDS a cigarette very few minutes . Yes , there is a mental side to that addiction , but largely it is physical .

Yes , any " struggle " actually happens within our Mental Reality . The Physical Reality usually doesn't get that deep . It reacts . It is the primeval force of suevival that drives us . We are hungery , so we eat . What we eat doesn't much matter , however your " Physical Selves " are very easily contdictioned to desire ... cookies . But an excample of how our Physical Being could be in conflict with one of our " higher " Selves " would be Lust vs Love .

Your excample of someone cutting you off in traffic doesn't really go deep enough . Why were you cut off ? Were you too close ? Was it a mistake on the other driver's part ? Chances are , you weren't really reacting to anything " Physical " at all , but to what you " Mentally " believed happened . If so , one could ask if the " conflict " really had anything to do with the Physical at all ? Other then a physical triggering the reaction .

Yea , I am kinda pushing it a bit . But to see something in a way that we aren't use to viewing it sometimes requires being pushed beyond the norm .

A very good question . How do we know if the three Realities are in balance ? I'm afraid I don't have an answer . I think that this is a natural state of our being , and as such it would be as hard to define as how we know that we are truely alive . I mean we really have nothing to conpare it too if we have never been more " in balance " then we are right now . I guess this is where the Spiritual comes into play . The more in balance we are , the more Spiritual we are ??? If it works like the Chakra , then that would be the case . At least the easier it would be fore us to be in touch with the Spiritual side of ourselves .

Actually I have had people say that they didn't know me because of my actions . But I agree that usually we do stay " within character " while in a familuar environment . It is when we find ourselves outside this environment that the dark and secert parts of our personalities come out . Ok , they aren't always so dark , and perhaps not so secert . But you know what I mean .

And thank you for your comments . These are only my own beliefs and I am not trying to convince any others to follow them . But they should be able to stand on their own , at least to the point that another can kinda understand where I am coming from . And this is what this thread is all about really . To see if I can explain my beliefs in a way others can grasp . Or to find out if I am just totally delusional .

 

[EnhancedSpirit]

wow, this is a really old thread. I'm glad it has been resurrected. It goes along with something I've been working on. Getting all my parts in sync with one another. The only thing I wish to add is that I believe the emotions do not lie in the mental state of man, but in the spiritual state of man. The mental state decides what to do about the emotions, or tries to rationalize them.

I also think that while the physical state of man is indeed linear, and very limited by laws of physics, the mental state of man is limited to his/her experience, and the spiritual side of mankind has no limits. No limit of time, or gravity. I believe that the spiritual side of man hold the key to our highest potential, and it is in a constant tug of war with the physical and mental states.

I believe when you are very happy about something that is your spiritual self expressing itself, and unhappiness is caused by the spirit's desire to express itself.

 

[kreeden]

Personally , I think that there are " levels " of emotion . Depending upon how one defines " emotion " I guess . Higher emotions do come from the Spiritual . Such as Love . Greed or Fear on the other hand is purely a survival thing , so I believe that it is Physical . Such thing as " Honour " I believe to be man made , so would be mostly Mental . { but may be influenced by the Spirit ... kinda like a law to govern the Mental and Physical and would be an excample of how the Spirit interacts with our other Selves } .

You may be interested in " Huna " ES ? Personally I know very little about it , but it deals with different levels of Being , Souls , and Reality too .

 

[EnhancedSpirit]

Personally , I think that there are " levels " of emotion . Depending upon how one defines " emotion " I guess . Higher emotions do come from the Spiritual . Such as Love . Greed or Fear on the other hand is purely a survival thing , so I believe that it is Physical . Such thing as " Honour " I believe to be man made , so would be mostly Mental . { but may be influenced by the Spirit ... kinda like a law to govern the Mental and Physical and would be an excample of how the Spirit interacts with our other Selves } .

You may be interested in " Huna " ES ? Personally I know very little about it , but it deals with different levels of Being , Souls , and Reality too .

Looked into Huna. Very interesting stuff, it is further validation of the TRUTH. The similarities between Huna and the world's religions and beliefs are incredible. About the emotions, I agree, in fact I just posted a list of the emotions in order and the significance of that order in another thread, I won't post it here because it is off topic. But you can find it here: http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?p=401719#post401719

 

[kreeden]

Yes , the list of emotions you posted relate to something else , so doesn't really fit in with I am saying . I mean , depression is something totally different . Although they claim Huna is a method of healing , I am looking at this more as a method of self-awareness . Of course , being such different people are likely to have different views .

There is one VERY important thing that I should point out , which I have kinda overlloked before . When I talk about the Physical , Mental and Spiritual Selves , I am not placing one above the over . Each serves it's purpose . I belive that is one thing that Huna and I agree on . That each must be balanced .

Huna is based upon a " Shamanic " tradition . And some traditions disagree about just what makes up a " Vision ", " Journey ", or whatever it is that Shamans do . Some even go as far as to define a Shaman as a Healer , implying that non-Healers can not be Shamans . But that much can heal can also harm . So I am using a much broader defination of Shamanism .

Ok , I have no idea where I wanted to go with this . Just that I think that Shamanism is a very person thing , defined by one's self and their Guides . But again , there are those who would disagree ... and it is their right to do so . But what Shaman would take the word of another over that of their Guide ?

Now , back on topic ... There are those who say that a Guide will only come to you while in a " trance " or while on a Journey . I disagree . The Spiritual , the Mental , and the Physical all overlap . So why can't the Spiritual take on Physical form , or at least appear to . In the same way , the Physical can " become " Spiritual , for a time at least . Afterall , we live in all three realms at the same time . It is just that our attention tends to focus on the Physical or Mental .

Hmmm ? It appears that I am leading towards saying that the Spiritual is nothing more that a state of awareness ... but I don't think that is quite what I want to imply ? In part , yes I believe it is , But I also believe there is more to it ... aware of what ?

Sorry . I'm rambling on here . I need to get some sleep . I will see if I can figure out what that was all about later ...

 

[EnhancedSpirit]

Hmmm ? It appears that I am leading towards saying that the Spiritual is nothing more that a state of awareness ... but I don't think that is quite what I want to imply ? In part , yes I believe it is , But I also believe there is more to it ... aware of what ?

Sorry . I'm rambling on here . I need to get some sleep . I will see if I can figure out what that was all about later ...

No, I think youare on to something here. It is all about BEING AWARE. And you are right about being balanced. We are often, as in almost all the time, aware of our physical senses. In order to BE AWARE of the spiritual senses, we usually have to meditate, your 'go out of our mind' so to speak. I think you are right about the balance, we are supposed to BE AWARE on all levels, similtaneously, not predominetly one over the other.

 

[michel]

How very astute of you all to notice. If I may try to expand on this thinking. I would suggest that we are in fact inherently multidimensional beings that exist in an inherently multidimensional reality. I have had countless adventures in consciousness that have led me in many interesting, predominantly beautiful, directions.

How to say? In each "reality" that I encountered, I was always "me". The odd thing is, that that "me" took on the various "forms" that were relative or native to that given environ. Think of it this way. If you go to a formal state dinner, you must wear a Tux or a gown. That is the required "attire". If you are swimming, you would wear swimming "attire". If you are going shopping at the mall, you wear something nice, but casual. If you are bumming around the house, god only knows what seedy cherished thing you are wearing would be. Get the picture?

The thing is, YOU are always the focal point. You are always YOU, regardless of what locale you are perceiving. In the dreamscape, for example, your "attire" is you dream body. In other realities, you may well perceive yourself as being like a tiny star. In some realities you may not be able to discern any shape or form whatsoever.

Obviously there are some definite divisions between "reality" and "self". As well, there are some definite divisions within the self, but my point is, those divisions are not as great as some might think. The "whole self" (aka soul/entity/atma/Bozo the clown) is quite a bit larger than many would suspect and most certainly much larger than most experience. The thing is, we all have our own individualized "whole self", and our current three dimensional self is but one of its aspects. Here I don't wish to minimize the value of such aspects, as they serve a highly important role to the whole self.

VERY simply put, aspects are on field trips, within the physical system, investigating an "aspect" of reality that the whole self wishes to understand more completely. The complete "whole self" cannot "fit" in a single human body, and so it sends a trace element of itself to take up residency, so to speak. That "trace element" is somewhat magical in its properties however and is imbued with the core properties of the whole self.

The "magical property" has within its nature the ability to intuitively grasp its relationship with its whole self. By doing so, it becomes the whole self, although the whole self is not "brought down" into physical reality in literal terms. There is nothing from stopping the aspect from returning to its larger identity, by making this intuitive leap. This aspect self, normally intuits this relationship through out-of-body experiences and subsequent expansions of the self-imposed perimeters of consciousness. This intuitive leap is intrinsically spiritual in nature, but it would be a grave distortion to call it a religious experience.

Oh, well, I could be wrong. If only it didn't make so much sense.

Now I'm getting worried; that made sense!:biglaugh:

 

[kreeden]

ES . Yes , awareness is key . Both being aware of ourselves and of our enviroment ... on all levels . Where I got caught up is trying to explain that it goes beyond the imagination , which I think most here would agree with . But still , it is hard to put into words . Oh well . I was kinda getting off track anyway .

YmirGF , yes , we are actually Legion . Depending upon how we wish to break ourselves down . And each of these make up the whole . Perhaps it all doesn't make much difference how we view ourselves , other then to understand who and what we are . To become " aware " of our being .

But are " YOU " always the focal point ? Yes , the Mind is our focal point . Everything that we relate to , we do so through our Mind . But that could lead one to assume that there is nothing but the Mind . That is not as far fetched as it may seem , as there are those who say just that . In fact I once thought along those lines .

You are always You because that is how your Mind sees you . The Ego . Which can be a trap my friend , as it holds you to the Mental . Or it can ground you too . But again , these are just my views .

BTW I hope that the Spiritual NEVER becomes religion . Awareness is all about being aware , not having another to tell you what is ...

General statement : The Three Reality thing works for me now . But I do wonder what will happen when and if they ever balance to the point of becoming ONE ? Or will they split into more " realities "? This is just a journey .

 

[kreeden]

The concept of the Ego or Self is a hard one actually . The west usually considers the Self to be more or less constant , unchangely . The awareness of self does change but the Self does not . The east however has a different view { in my understanding } and belive that the Self is always changing .

It is my belief that the Self is nothing more then a Mental image . It doesn't even have to be true in the eyes of others . I am sure that we all know someone who thinks they are very good at something { like singing } but are not .

Now , the Mind likes to group thing together . Stack then in related order with each other . It tends to like things nice and organized . And as long as everything is nice and orderly , the Self remains mostly unchanged . But if the Mind gets a shock ... a trauma such as can happen in extreme sports , near death experiences , a good fright even , the Self can not only be changed , but can be left behind for a time .

I also believe that it such times the Mind can and often does redefine the Self .

So , although there is always " awareness " , I have to disagree that there is always " awareness of Self ".

{ Stopping the World YmirGF , or in this case , stopping the worldly image of the Self . The World as we nornally view it is mostly Physical . }

 

[kreeden]

I'm sorry YmirGF . It is very hard to find the words for describing something new . I think that we are talking about the same thing . And it is quite alright to have different views of it . No need to be uncomfortable . The whole idea of this to get people thinking { me in particular and I welcome any and all questions ... which I may take one step farther just to try and get it straight in my mind } .

By " Legion " I mean that we can break our personalities down into countless parts . The same can likely be done with " reality " . Huna has four realities , I have three . Whatever works eh ?

Ego is a term that I had a problem with as it is Freudian . But it usually refers to the awareness of self . So I couldn't think of a better term . Sorry . When you stated that " you " are always there , I wanted to point out that " you " may not be what most think of when they think of " self ", the Ego . I kinda figured that you were refering to something else . But what does one call it ? I have no idea ....

The way I see it is that the Ego is like a Tower , or Castle if you will . It is build up of memories and experiences and ideals that we believe make up who and what we are . It is what most think of as " Self ". And most believe that it can be builded upon , but pretty much is like a stone wall . But if you look closely at a stone wall , you will see that it is made up of blocks ... the mind works like that . Grouping ideas , experiences and the like into " blocks " of info . But if you look closer still , you will find that these " stone blocks " are actually made of of smaller particles , sand if you will .

Now we have an Ego which is nothing more then a " sand castle ". Waiting for a wave to come along and flatten it . And if a wave does wash it " away ", then what happens . The wave has only destroyed the construct , not the particles that made up the construct . In other words , the " Self " is still there , just not in the form of an Ego . To me the Mind is like a beach of sand , the waves being thoughts that shape the sand .

Ok , that is a very simple and rather silly way of putting it . But I don't know how else to say it . Not without redefining psychology .

I agree that the unconscious is aware , on a much wider range then our " conscious " is . Only that we are not usually aware of the unconscious on a conscious level . Why is that ? { I am sure that you know what I mean , ever if you don't believe there is an unconscious } .

 

[EnhancedSpirit]

When you stated that " you " are always there , I wanted to point out that " you " may not be what most think of when they think of " self ", the Ego . I kinda figured that you were refering to something else . But what does one call it ? I have no idea ....

HIGHER SELF.

I mother my children, I make websites, I create art, I do construction work. I do a lot of things, but these are not 'who I am'. It took me a while to realize that what I do is not who I am. When I examined who I really was, I found myself becoming an ordained minister. So I have found that I am a preacher, and a messenger, and a healer. These are my true self, and all the things I do, are in service of my higher self.

I'm really tired and don't know if I'm making sense or rambling. So I'll leave it at that for now. Come back to this thought later.

 

[kreeden]

Yes , you make sense ES . I'm afraid that I am the one not making much sense .

I have always figured that where our awareness of the three Realities overlap is our " Self ". But I have never defined just what that is or means . YmirGF's post kinda tiggered the question in my mind , and I have been trying to work out the answer ever since ... although I really wasn't conscious of where I was going or doing untill this evening . I knew that something was out of place , but could quite put my figure on it .

I apologize YmirGF if it appeared that I was quetioning your views . Actually I was questioning mine , and still am . Which is cool . That is one of things I was hoping for with this thread . My views have to be complete and be able to stand on their own merit or they are nothing but a personal fanasty .

There is an awareness on the Physical , Mental , and Spiritual level , all of which overlaps . So what would that awareness be where it overlaps ? Higher Self ? True Self ? The Core Self perhaps ?

Does that mean that there is a Core Reality also ?

It appears that I have some work to do ...

 

[EnhancedSpirit]

For example, there is much I agree with in Enhanced_Spirits posts, but the religious aspects leave me cold. (Sorry ES, just being honest.) You see, I do not look at my reality through the eyes of religion and so those labels are too abstract for me to fully appreciate. When I filter off the religious elements, in what ES is saying, her message crystalizes and I can understand. I think we are all saying much the same thing, in different ways.

No apology necessary. I think religion serves it's purpose, but it not absolutely necessary for remembering the TRUTH. I had given up on religion. What I was seeing in the churches I grew up in, actually made me turn to atheism. I feel I was able to recognize the TRUTH so quickly because I was no longer bound by the dogma and tradition of any religion. I was free to seek the TRUTH everywhere. I feel that the Buddhists and Taoists see the TRUTH more clearly than a majority of Christians. Because they are not clouded by a lot of 'opinions'. I see organized religion is like grade school (K-12), Buddhism and Taoism is like College. And gnosism, wicca and some others are like specialized fields of training.