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Featured Muhkam Verses and Muthasabih verses in the Quran.

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by firedragon, Dec 26, 2020.

  1. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    Thus since this question was asked, lets do an analysis and anyone who wishes to ask more questions on this particular topic are welcome.

    Muhkam means to judge, straight forward or stable. Fixed. It comes from the root word Hakama. The usage of this word would of course defer in meaning according to the context of the sentence in use. For example, if I am to associate this word with God, then it is judgement. Who else is a better judge? But when it is an issuance from God, it is a command. As in when I say "hukmihee" it is a judgement issued.

    Thus, the Quran says that there are verses that are called Muhkam. They are the fixed verses.

    Second are the Muthasabih verses. It comes from Shabaha, Sheen, Ba, second Ha. This means Dual, comparable, allegorical. The meaning depends on the context of the sentence. Shubbiha means that the situation was not "explicitly unclear". For example, when the Jesus and his crucifixion comes up in the Quran it says Shubbiha, which means it was not clear to people. But the Quran also makes it a point in the verse 3:7 that there will be people with a sickness or disease in their hearts who will use this kind of verse to build their doctrine, and that is what we should watch out for.

    A lot of people, Muslims included use this verse about Jesus and his crucifixion which is clearly a Muthasabih verse because it says explicitly it was Shubbiha. So what some Muslims did was to make the case that Jesus was not killed on the cross, but another was because it was not "clear". Thats just assumption. Many others may have many other ideas they wish to impose upon a verse like that. But the Quran says in 3:7 that this would expose them. They will use this Muthasabih verse to make their major case, where in as the Muhkam verses are the foundation and should be such. So if you wish to identify at least someone who is going the right way, without any intent of deviation, they would based their doctrine on "Muhkam verses", not on "Muthasabih Verses".

    He is the One who sent down to you the Book, from which there are definite/fixed (Muthasabih) signs; they are the essence of the book; and others, which are dual/multiple (Muthasabih). As for those who have disease in their hearts, eager to cause confusion and eager to derive their interpretation, they will follow what is multiple-meaning from it. But none knows their meaning except God and those who are well founded in knowledge; they say, "We acknowledge it, all is from our Lord." None will remember except the people of intellect.* - Quran 3:7

    This thread was opened because this question was asked.
     
  2. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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  3. InvestigateTruth

    InvestigateTruth Well-Known Member

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    1. Can you give an example of Mutishabihat verses in the Quran?

    2. Why in the Quran, the interpretation of Mutishabihat is called "Taweel"?
     
  4. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    Given already. Maybe you didnt know the verse. So here you go. 4:157

    Lol. What? I thought the way you were cutting and pasting arabic words at a rate you at least had some basic idea.

    Your statement does not make any sense whatsoever. Let me put it in context.

    You asked: Why in the Quran, the interpretation of Mutishabihat is called "Taweel"

    This happens when you cherry pick one verse and then pretend to be an expert, and insult people. It is you who deserve it.

    I have explained to you already in a who other thread what Taweel is. Its just a word. Since you pretend that you did not see it, I will cut and paste it just for anyone to see.

    Taweel comes from Awal. It means the fundamental, first or primary meaning of something.

    And Taweel is a generic word. It is not exclusive for any other word. You are making a false association. How did you come up with that?

    Taweel means interpretation or the primary. Thus, your question is like asking "why in the Quran, the interpretation of Muthasabih is called "interpretation".

    Doesnt make sense. So maybe get to your point directly rather than beating about the bush.
     
  5. InvestigateTruth

    InvestigateTruth Well-Known Member

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    @firedragon

    Why are you so angry my friend? The way you reply is like you are in a fight or battle with an enemy. Just keep it cool, will you?
     
  6. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    Nope.

    Any more questions on the topic?
     
  7. InvestigateTruth

    InvestigateTruth Well-Known Member

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    I ask questions, because, I want to see your view, and common points.

    Ok, how do you know 4:157 is Mutishabihat? And why did God say this 4:157
    In Mutishabihat? Why not Muhkamaat?

    What i mean is simple. Do you agree that the word Taweel, has a connection with Mutishabihat in Quran, since both of these terms are used in the same verse 3:7?

    Let me aks the question another way. When it comes to explaining Muhkamaat verses, should one say Taweel, or should say Tafseer?
     
  8. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    I explained in the OP.

    Its used also with the word God in the Quran. So is that connected? Thats verse 12:100.
    It is also used with two orphaned young boys, their father, and God in verse 18:82.

    No. They are not connected in some magical way. Its just a word.
     
  9. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    Its strange that I opened a thread simply to discuss this, quoted you there, you read it, then responded, yet still ask a question as if you never did. I will make another cut and paste so that anyone can see what I have already shown you and see if one could understand.

    1. Taweel comes from Awal. It means the fundamental, first or primary meaning of something.
    2. Tafseer means an exegesis.

    Two different words. And again, you are an expert who insults people saying others dont know the answers, but you seem to be absolutely ignorant of simple things. Such basic things.

    Your question is like "when it comes to explaining, should I say explanation". "Obviously an explanation is called an explanation" is my answer.
     
  10. InvestigateTruth

    InvestigateTruth Well-Known Member

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    Yes, agree 12:100 is a good example:

    Sahih International: And he raised his parents upon the throne, and they bowed to him in prostration. And he said, "O my father, this is the explanation of my vision of before. My Lord has made it reality. And He was certainly good to me when He took me out of prison and brought you [here] from bedouin life after Satan had induced [estrangement] between me and my brothers. Indeed, my Lord is Subtle in what He wills. Indeed, it is He who is the Knowing, the Wise.


    1. Is the vision here, the vision of seeing 12 stars?

    2. So, do you agree that this dream or vision which was fulfilled later, was in the form of Mutishabihat? And the reason we know it was Mutishabihat is confirmed by the Quran, since its Taweel came?

    3. In another words based in these examples, can we conclude that, those sayings or visions, which require Taweel, are those which are Mutishabihat?
     
  11. InvestigateTruth

    InvestigateTruth Well-Known Member

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    @firedragon

    In the example you gave 12:100, why did not God show in the dream that His brothers, father and mother will prostrate before Joseph? Why did God, instead of showing them, showed stars and the Sun and the moon?
     
  12. InvestigateTruth

    InvestigateTruth Well-Known Member

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    What i was trying to point out, is Taweel, as per example given in the Quran, is based on symbols.


    Consider in the vision of Joseph, mentioned in 12:100, the stars, moon and the sun have symbolic meanings.

    He saw these symbols, but when its Taweel came, it was His brothers, father and mother.

    Similarly in another example in Surrah of Joseph, a man saw a dream of seven fat cows followed by seven skinny cows.
    But when its Taweel came, it did not appear as cows. It appears as 7 years of prosperity followed by 7 years of poverty.

    So, my question again, is, what lessons does these stories give us?

    Why did God prophecies came as symbolic (Mutishabihat), rather than explicit?

    When we ponder on these stories, we see a wisdom. The wisdom is, God does not always want to reveal a future event explicitly when it is not wise to do so. Rather He reveals it with symbols, and when the event comes to pass, we see, how the symbols correspond with the event.
    Another lesson is, only a Prophet of God, could interpret (Taweel) of Mutishabihat.


    Do, you now understand where I am going with this yet? Just think really. Why did I bring this up? It is a test of IQ.
     
  13. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    No.

    Thats the problem with extreme cherry picking. I have given you two more verses and that's the least you could do to take "AT LEAST TWO VERSES INTO THE CONTEXT".

    Who said "Gods prophecies come as Muthasabih? You just made that up. I can ask for the verse that says "Prophecies are given in Muthasabih signs" but I know you will never ever in your life answer that question so there is absolutely no point asking you. Thus, I dont have a choice but to say "you just made that up". There are plenty of verses this generic word is used in. Of course, you would not care so that's that.

    And how did you make that a Muthasabih verse? Lets see if you could explain that!

    Of course I know where you are going, I always knew, and have preemptively answered your question on the first attempt in answering you when you pretended you were an arabic expert in the classical language and insulted me saying "you dont know", ignoring that you are not even a kindergarten level in the language. If you think you deserve respect being that, you are absolutely mistaken. It will not happen.

    I have already answered you. I know that you were trying to make all prophecies Muthasabih, and somehow plug Bahaullah into every prophecy because you dont understand the OP, you dont wish to understand it, and your intention was always a beat-about-the-bush.

    Not good. Its strange.
     
  14. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    I quote a verse of Quran from the very beginning of the Quran:

    [2:3] ذٰلِکَ الۡکِتٰبُ لَا رَیۡبَ ۚۖۛ فِیۡہِ ۚۛ ہُدًی لِّلۡمُتَّقِیۡنَ ۙ﴿۳﴾
    This is a perfect Book; there is no doubt in it; it is a guidance for the righteous,
    ^^^^^^^
    What is one's understanding of the verses said to be Muthasabih, please? Aren't these also without any doubt in them, please?
    Right friend, please?

    Regards
    ____________
    The Holy Quran
     
    #14 paarsurrey, Jan 16, 2021
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2021
  15. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    1. The verse you quoted does not say "perfect". Wrong translation.
    2. I have explained what Muthasabih means and you have replied to that post. So I think the response is already there.
     
  16. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    paarsurrey said:
    I quote a verse of Quran from the very beginning of the Quran:

    [2:3] ذٰلِکَ الۡکِتٰبُ لَا رَیۡبَ ۚۖۛ فِیۡہِ ۚۛ ہُدًی لِّلۡمُتَّقِیۡنَ ۙ﴿۳﴾
    This is a perfect Book; there is no doubt in it; it is a guidance for the righteous,
    ^^^^^^^
    What is one's understanding of the verses said to be Muthasabih, please? Aren't these also without any doubt in them, please?
    Right friend, please?
    Please give one's own translation, my point was in respect of colored in magenta ^, please.
    It is a brotherly discussion, please.

    Regards
     
  17. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    Wrong translation.

    Zalikal Kithaaba. This is the book or That book.
    La raiba feehi - there is no doubt in it
    Hudallil muttakeen - a guidance to the muttakeen (one with taqwa)

    About Mutasabih, I have already explained it. No one said that "Muthasabih means doubt" so Quran saying "no doubt" does not refer to Muthasabih or Muhkam.

    The primary meaning of the Muthasabih Verses are only known to God. Thats bottomline. The example of a Muthasabih verse was already given to you. ""Second are the Muthasabih verses. It comes from Shabaha, Sheen, Ba, second Ha. This means Dual, comparable, allegorical. The meaning depends on the context of the sentence. Shubbiha means that the situation was not "explicitly unclear". For example, when the Jesus and his crucifixion comes up in the Quran it says Shubbiha, which means it was not clear to people. But the Quran also makes it a point in the verse 3:7 that there will be people with a sickness or disease in their hearts who will use this kind of verse to build their doctrine, and that is what we should watch out for.""
     
  18. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    firedragon ," The meaning depends on the context of the sentence."
    1. Does one mean from "sentence" the verse that is being pondered upon, please?
    2. Is the context located in the verses around the verse being pondered upon, please?
    Right, please?

    Regards
     
  19. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    No. Not right. When someone adds words that are not there, it is wrong translation.
     
  20. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    firedragon, " Zalikal Kithaaba. This is the book or That book. La raiba feehi - there is no doubt in it "

    Doesn't one agree that the verses of Quran whether Muhkam or Muthasabih , in the wake of the above ^ have no doubt in it, please?

    Right brother, please?

    Regards
     
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