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Featured Muhammad. Mastermind or Prophet?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Jesus from the Ghetto, Jan 20, 2019.

  1. adrian009

    adrian009 Veteran Member
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    True.

    False. Islam and Christianity believe in the same God.

    Reflecting the reverence His followers have towards Muhammad.

    God in the Old Testament appears to have assisted the Hebrew people and the likes of King David in battles.

    Polygamy was the norm in many cultures until relatively recently in history.

    Polygamy in Christianity - Wikipedia

    The age of Aisha is debatable. Regardless, she became one of the outstanding female leaders of Islam in her time.

    Muhammad united a group of disparate Arab tribes on the Arabian Peninsula so there are parallels to King David. He taught them to worship the One True God and to turn away from the polytheism and idol worship of His ancestors. He revealed the Quran so in that sense He was like Moses who revealed the Torah.

    Through the Arabs and the Holy Quran, a great civilisation emerged that led to a rapid proliferation of the arts and sciences.

    Islamic Golden Age - Wikipedia
     
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  2. Prometheus85

    Prometheus85 Active Member

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    Did Muhammad even exist?
     
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  3. Audie

    Audie Veteran Member

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    Every "god" and associated superstitions / religion,
    is b.s. msde up by phoney "prophets", and then
    promoted by people who came after, for who
    knows what all reasons.

    All except for your chosen from among the
    phonies, which is the gem of truth and holiness
    Right? How smsrt and luvky, to hit on the right one.

    Which is fine; it is what they all say about theirs.

    How could you deny that the Emporer of Japan
    was descended from God? Or that Jor Smith
    found gold holy books?

    You ponder, if you are capable of it.
    So far you' ve not even figured out
    your false dichotomy.
     
  4. Audie

    Audie Veteran Member

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    So, Joseph Smith..a sleazy little con man,
    would you credit him with being highly
    influential, or was it Brigham Young et all
    who fluffed him up into a prophet, for theit
    own reasons?
     
  5. A REAL CHRISTIAN

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    Guess my posts went over your head
     
  6. Audie

    Audie Veteran Member

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    Nobody knows if this wonderfully important
    guy ever even existed.

    And, still less credible that the koran really
    is what he said.

    Like the supposed verbatim quotes from
    "Jesus", true and correct only if "god" saw
    to it that his guys made no mistakes.
     
  7. Audie

    Audie Veteran Member

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    All of which is pure and total irrelevance and 100%
    unresponsive to what I said..as well as a big
    dollop of b.s.

    Totally different? That is too absurd to warrant
    rebuttal.
     
  8. adrian009

    adrian009 Veteran Member
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    I don’t believe Joseph Smith was a prophet of God. Regardless, His followers do still follow Jesus Christ as well, who like Muhammad was the real deal.
     
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  9. A REAL CHRISTIAN

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    Ive looked through your past posts. Your responses are
    I noticed you never actually addressed any of my points you just make the same broad statements over and over
    I looked at some of your other posts on other threads and all you do is make bold broad claims " he didnt exist" " your wrong"
     
  10. 12jtartar

    12jtartar Active Member
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    Jesus from the GHetto,
    Because of the natural Inclination of fallen men to go the wrong way and do the wrong things, I don’t think popularity or influence is what we should follow. Mohammed was popular, but Satan is even more influential; should we follow him??
    The only True God, Who inspired the Holy Scriptures tells us where we came from and why we are in the terrible condition we find ourselves in. He also tells us what to do to receive the same hope that Adam and Eve has.
    Think about this; no other “god”, but the one that had the Bible written, even claims to have Created all things on earth and in heavens. He says that He is the One True God, and that He is jealous of people worshipping these false gods, and will destroy all who worship them, as well as the false gods, Exodus 34:14, 20:3-6, Jeremiah 10:10-15,25, Psalms 115:1-8, John 17:3. The Almighty God, whose name is Jehovah, has given ONE name under heaven, by which we MUST get saved, Acts 4:12.
    So, it seems to me, to be a waste of time to study all these influential men, and go to the One who cares about us and has the power to bring about all His Purposes, John 3:16, Hebrews 6:9-20, 2Peter 3:10-14, Revelation 21:1-5. Agape!!!
     
  11. 12jtartar

    12jtartar Active Member
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    adrian009,
    The Bible seems to say that there is only ONE NAME, under heaven, by whom we MUST get saved, Acts 4:12, That Name is Jesus, so it seems to me that it is a waste of time to be following any other man, 1Peter 2:21. Agape!!!
     
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  12. Spiderman

    Spiderman Veteran Member

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    My opinion was he was a pedophile and a military dictator trying to compensate for something. He was severely sick and Disturbed, but maybe he thought he was doing the right thing. Perhaps figures like Jeffrey Dahmer or charles Manson also believe they were doing the right thing.
     
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  13. Spiderman

    Spiderman Veteran Member

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    He was the epitome of narcissistic as well.
     
  14. InvestigateTruth

    InvestigateTruth Well-Known Member

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    If Muhammad was not Messenger of God, Jesus would have come down and let us know, so too many people don''t get misled by such a false prophet. Is not God able to do that, or doesn't He care for people to follow the true Christ?
    Muhammad said in the Quran, God does not have a son. Billions of Muslims believed Muhammad. If what Muhammad says about God is false, why He does not come down to defend Himself? Is He powerless to do that, or unaware?
     
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  15. Augustus

    Augustus the Unreasonable

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    It's pretty clear that he did (near contemporary non-Muslim references)
     
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  16. Vouthon

    Vouthon Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
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    As @Augustus notes, near contemporaneous sources written by non-Muslims seem to make mention of Muhammad or a prophet of the Arabians, so there does appear to be a historical Muhammad - just not the Muhammad of the Hadith.

    The first extant source mentioning Muhammad is that of Thomas The Presbyter, 19 AH / 640 CE (AG 945, indiction VII), it reads:


    AG 945, indiction VII: On Friday, 4 February, [i.e., 634 CE / Dhul Qa‘dah 12 AH] at the ninth hour, there was a battle between the Romans and the Arabs of Mụhammad [Syr. tayyāyē d-Ṃhmt] in Palestine twelve miles east of Gaza. The Romans fled, leaving behind the patrician YRDN (Syr. BRYRDN), whom the Arabs killed. Some 4000 poor villagers of Palestine were killed there, Christians, Jews and Samaritans. The Arabs ravaged the whole region.

    However, there is a potentially slightly earlier source even than that, while not mentioning the name 'Muhammad', refers to a Prophet of the Saracens (Muslims). It is presumed by most scholars that this was Muhammad:


    Doctrina Iacobi Nuper Baptizati, 13–20 AH / 634–640 CE.

    When the candidatus was killed by the Saracens, I was at Caesarea and I set off by boat to Sykamina. People were saying "the candidatus has been killed," and we Jews were overjoyed. And they were saying that the prophet had appeared, coming with the Saracens, and that he was proclaiming the advent of the anointed one, the Christ who was to come. I, having arrived at Sykamina, stopped by a certain old man well-versed in scriptures, and I said to him: "What can you tell me about the prophet who has appeared with the Saracens?"

    He replied, groaning deeply: "He is false, for the prophets do not come armed with a sword. Truly they are works of anarchy being committed today...But you go, master Abraham, and find out about the prophet who has appeared." So I, Abraham, inquired and heard from those who had met him that there was no truth to be found in the so-called prophet, only the shedding of men's blood. He says also that he has the keys of paradise, which is incredible.



    Orthodox Muslims adhere to a set of Hadith chains (which vary significantly between Sunni and Shia) that purport to detail the major events of Muhammad's life and teaching career outside the Qur'an, which are known collectively as "the Sunnah".

    These sources for the life of Muhammad are, unfortunately, not trustworthy. Western scholars don’t consider them even remotely reliable.

    There is basically nothing in Bukhari, the most trusted chronicler, that can in anyway be viewed as conclusively reaching back to Muhammad himself. There is no mention of any Mecca, for example, in any datable text for a century after Muhammed's death.

    Of course, that doesn’t matter so much as what Muslims believe about the authenticity of the Sunnah but we are talking here about a yawning gap of more than 200 years - and that's for the EARLIEST hadith.

    For that reason, I tend to focus on the Qur'anic witness alone when evaluating his teachings. The accounts of his life are almost entirely legendary, since the earliest non-Islamic references to the Prophet portray his career very differently to how the much later Muslim sources do.

    Even in terms of the Qur’an itself, there is the not insignificant exegetical problem raised by the fact that the mushrikun (the unbelievers of whom Muhammad engages with throughout the text) are clearly described as being agriculturalists.

    Agriculture and lush vegetation feature prominently in the Qur’an, something that is historically anachronistic if the events alluded to really did take place in the arid deserts of Mecca and Medina during the lifetime of the Prophet, a time before irrigation and dams had been installed (which they were by later Caliphs), as the Sunnah would have us believe.

    Since this casts the traditional story of Muhammad's life in even greater uncertainty, we don't really know that much about the original Prophet behind the Qur'anic revelation.

    Muhammad, whomever he was, showed evident concern for social injustice when he condemned the Arab practice of female infanticide in a number of Qur'anic verses (3:35-36; 81:7-9). I commend this as progress in the context of late antiquity Arabia.

    Moreover, according to some hadith chains, the Last Sermon of Muhammad at Mount Arafat in 632 AD included a powerfully worded criticism of discrimination based upon race or skin colour:

    An Arab has no superiority over a non-Arab, nor a non-Arab has any superiority over an Arab ... a white person has no superiority over a black, nor does a black have any superiority over white except by piety and good action.”
    Again, highly commendable.

    There are, nevertheless, teachings attributed to him that I find much less appealing - some even objectionable - but which can largely be explained on the basis of the time period in which he lived and the overarching cultural milieu.

    So, in sum, I have no clear position on the Prophet. There are elements of his teaching I commend and elements that I don't. Evidently, he must have been an incredibly charismatic person and managed to persuade many people to back his cause. Ultimately, he founded a world religion that would go on to become one of the great fulcrums of human civilisation.
     
    #36 Vouthon, Jan 20, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2019
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  17. loverofhumanity

    loverofhumanity Well-Known Member
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    There is no person on earth today that is as humble as Prophet Muhammad was in my view. He received a Revelation direct from God. He married Aisha when she was about 19.
     
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  18. Audie

    Audie Veteran Member

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    Lots of references to mermaids, too.
    Doesnt matter.

    It appears there really was aJoe Smith.

    And thete is controversy re "Mohammed" as an
    actual person.

    What does matter for these "prophets" is to peddle their wares at the
    rihht time and place, where others will take it up and run with it.

    Mozart could have been born in Borneo 800 yrs ago. Nobody would
    hear his music, same for Newton "Jesus" or "Mohammed".
     
    #38 Audie, Jan 20, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2019
  19. Audie

    Audie Veteran Member

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    that is like totally just your opinion, man. :D
     
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  20. Audie

    Audie Veteran Member

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    "God" did not bother to mention that the whole Noahs ark
    story is bs, and that it is horribly disrespectful to accuse
    "God" of being a psycho monster who would do such a thing?

    SOME "revelation" that was.
     
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