Muhammad is not Seal of Prophets, He is Ring of Prophets!

[Truthseeker]

Well, I prefer the Shoghi Effendi translation. Thsose hadiths, and there is more than one refer to the "last Prophet" or "last Messenger". My first impression was wrong. I did my own investigation, and I disagree with InvestigateTruth. Also when I think about it, if these two wods lok exactly the same in Arabic, you would have to be ambivalent about which transaltion to use. Then you see the hadiths with the references to "last prophet" and Shoghi Effendi seems to be right.

It is evident that every age in which a Manifestation of God hath lived is divinely ordained, and may, in a sense, be characterized as God’s appointed Day. This Day, however, is unique, and is to be distinguished from those that have preceded it. The designation “Seal of the Prophets” fully revealeth its high station. The Prophetic Cycle hath, verily, ended. The Eternal Truth is now come. He hath lifted up the Ensign of Power, and is now shedding upon the world the unclouded splendor of His Revelation.
Bahá’u’lláh, "Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh", 25

This passage doesn't have the same meaning unless it means the last of the Prophets. However, I wonder about the use of the word "Messenger" in that one hadith. As it is but one hadith, it is not a huge problem for me. I'm not sure what "Messenger" implies as opposed to "Prophet". It doesn't seem to be about prophesizing a future special Day of God only.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

In the Study Qur'an I have hadiths are cited to prove that Muhammad is the last prophet. he is reported to have said "No Prophethood shall remain after me, save in true visions". "Messengerhood and prophethood have ceased. There will be no messenger or prophet after me."

What does "no messenger" mean? It seems to mean more than not prophesizing. Is this Hadith reliable?

The Hadith is true in my opinion. But it has nothing to do with the Title of Signet Ring of Prophets.
Muhammad was saying in Islam, there is no immediate Messenger or Prophet after Him. Comparing to Moses, that after Moses there came a number of Prophets immediately to promote religion of Moses.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

@Truthseeker
It is interesting that you prefer InvestigateTruth's interpretation of the Iqan to Shoghi Effendi's, Shoghi Effendi has translated Baha'u'llah's words reffering to Muhammad to mean both "seal" and "last".

I'll have to remember that amongst the central figures of the Baha'i faith now InvestigateTruth is ranked over Shoghi Effendi in the new Baha'i pecking order.

Boy oh boy how much do religions change from the time of their foundation.
In my opinion

Shoghi Effendi never translated Baha'u'llah's word to mean Last.
But I understand where the misunderstanding comes from.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Your links are not telling all the information in my opinion.
It is telling half the truth which is misleading. The purpose of the signet ring in historical context is as a seal.
From Wikipedia;
'A seal is a device for making an impression in wax, clay, paper, or some other medium, including an embossment on paper, and is also the impression thus made.'

'A signet ring is a ring bearing on its flat top surface the equivalent of a seal. A typical signet ring has a design, often a family or personal crest, created in intaglio so that it will leave a raised (relief) impression of the design when the ring is pressed onto liquid sealing wax.'
Source: Seal (emblem) - Wikipedia.

In my opinion.

The word Khatam is used in many other Hadithes as well. It always meant a signet ring. That's for sure.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Well, I prefer the Shoghi Effendi translation. Thsose hadiths, and there is more than one refer to the "last Prophet" or "last Messenger". My first impression was wrong. I did my own investigation, and I disagree with InvestigateTruth. Also when I think about it, if these two wods lok exactly the same in Arabic, you would have to be ambivalent about which transaltion to use. Then you see the hadiths with the references to "last prophet" and Shoghi Effendi seems to be right.

It is evident that every age in which a Manifestation of God hath lived is divinely ordained, and may, in a sense, be characterized as God’s appointed Day. This Day, however, is unique, and is to be distinguished from those that have preceded it. The designation “Seal of the Prophets” fully revealeth its high station. The Prophetic Cycle hath, verily, ended. The Eternal Truth is now come. He hath lifted up the Ensign of Power, and is now shedding upon the world the unclouded splendor of His Revelation.
Bahá’u’lláh, "Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh", 25

This passage doesn't have the same meaning unless it means the last of the Prophets. However, I wonder about the use of the word "Messenger" in that one hadith. As it is but one hadith, it is not a huge problem for me. I'm not sure what "Messenger" implies as opposed to "Prophet". It doesn't seem to be about prophesizing a future special Day of God only.

Baha'u'llah in the Book of Certitude wrote that, if all Prophets be called "Seal", it is true. Now, if Seal of Prophets meant end of prophetic cycle, then it means every prophet had ended prophetic cycle.
Is this true though?

I don't believe so. "Signet Ring of Prophets", means the best of the Prophets symbolically. In that sense, when their best has come, thus the prophetic cycle has ended.

Baha'u'llah did not want to get into these arguments too much and tell them Muhammad is not last Messenger and Seal does not mean End of Prophethood. This was His wisdom.
For example, In Iqan Baha'u'llah wrote Jesus went up to the forth Heaven. This was the ideas of the people, He was referring l, otherwise we Bahai do not believe such a thing happend.

 

[danieldemol]

Shoghi Effendi never translated Baha'u'llah's word to mean Last.
But I understand where the misunderstanding comes from.

'The Kitáb-i-Íqán: The Book of Certitude
A treatise revealed by Bahá’u’lláh in Baghdad in 1861/62 in response to questions posed by one of the maternal uncles of the Báb, translated by Shoghi Effendi and first published in English in 1931.'
Source: The Kitáb-i-Íqán | Bahá’í Reference Library

From the English translation of the Iqan their are a number of references to all the Prophets being the last, and some specifically referring to Muhammad, for example;

'Notwithstanding the obviousness of this theme, in the eyes of those that have quaffed the wine of 162 knowledge and certitude, yet how many are those who, through failure to understand its meaning, have allowed the term “Seal of the Prophets” to obscure their understanding, and deprive them of the grace of all His manifold bounties! Hath not Muḥammad, Himself, declared: “I am all the Prophets?” Hath He not said as We have already mentioned: “I am Adam, Noah, Moses, and Jesus?” Why should Muḥammad, that immortal Beauty, Who hath said: “I am the first Adam” be incapable of saying also: “I am the last Adam”? For even as He regarded Himself to be the “First of the Prophets”—that is Adam—in like manner, the “Seal of the Prophets” is also applicable unto that Divine Beauty. It is admittedly obvious that being the “First of the Prophets,” He likewise is their “Seal.”'

Source: Bahá'í Reference Library - The Kitáb-i-Íqán, Pages 161-200

'Inasmuch as the Cause is one and the same, the Exponents thereof also must needs be one and the same. Likewise, the Imáms of the Muḥammadan Faith, those lamps of certitude, have said: “Muḥammad is our first, Muḥammad our last, Muḥammad our all.”'

Source: Bahá'í Reference Library - The Kitáb-i-Íqán, Pages 121-160

So you see I believe if there is any misunderstanding it is all your own, Baha'u'llah as translated by Shoghi Effendi has referred to Muhammad as the "last"

In my opinion.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

'The Kitáb-i-Íqán: The Book of Certitude
A treatise revealed by Bahá’u’lláh in Baghdad in 1861/62 in response to questions posed by one of the maternal uncles of the Báb, translated by Shoghi Effendi and first published in English in 1931.'
Source: The Kitáb-i-Íqán | Bahá’í Reference Library

From the English translation of the Iqan their are a number of references to all the Prophets being the last, and some specifically referring to Muhammad, for example;

'Notwithstanding the obviousness of this theme, in the eyes of those that have quaffed the wine of 162 knowledge and certitude, yet how many are those who, through failure to understand its meaning, have allowed the term “Seal of the Prophets” to obscure their understanding, and deprive them of the grace of all His manifold bounties! Hath not Muḥammad, Himself, declared: “I am all the Prophets?” Hath He not said as We have already mentioned: “I am Adam, Noah, Moses, and Jesus?” Why should Muḥammad, that immortal Beauty, Who hath said: “I am the first Adam” be incapable of saying also: “I am the last Adam”? For even as He regarded Himself to be the “First of the Prophets”—that is Adam—in like manner, the “Seal of the Prophets” is also applicable unto that Divine Beauty. It is admittedly obvious that being the “First of the Prophets,” He likewise is their “Seal.”'

Source: Bahá'í Reference Library - The Kitáb-i-Íqán, Pages 161-200

'Inasmuch as the Cause is one and the same, the Exponents thereof also must needs be one and the same. Likewise, the Imáms of the Muḥammadan Faith, those lamps of certitude, have said: “Muḥammad is our first, Muḥammad our last, Muḥammad our all.”'

Source: Bahá'í Reference Library - The Kitáb-i-Íqán, Pages 121-160

So you see I believe if there is any misunderstanding it is all your own, Baha'u'llah as translated by Shoghi Effendi has referred to Muhammad as the "last"

In my opinion.

I don't think Baha'u'llah says Seal means Last. When He says Muhammad said He is the first and last, He is referring to a Hadith, where Muhammad used the word "Akhir". Akhir is Arabic means Last. Baha'u'llah is simplying saying All Prophets are one, so, when Muhammad said He is the Seal (Signet Ring", all of them can be called by this Name, as their first one is their last, and their last is the first one. Just as Jesus said I am first and last. In another words, He says, Seal, does not indicate the Finality. It is just a Name, or Title. That's all.

 

[danieldemol]

I don't think Baha'u'llah says Seal means Last. When He says Muhammad said He is the first and last, He is referring to a Hadith, where Muhammad used the word "Akhir". Akhir is Arabic means Last. Baha'u'llah is simplying saying All Prophets are one, so, when Muhammad said He is the Seal (Signet Ring", all of them can be called by this Name, as their first one is their last, and their last is the first one. Just as Jesus said I am first and last.

He uses the term "Last Adam" interchangeably with "Seal of the Prophets", the implication of that is obvious to me - that in His eyes the terms are equivalent in meaning

In another words, He says, Seal, does not indicate the Finality. It is just a Name, or Title. That's all.

You are addressing a strawman here, I never said Baha'u'llah or Shoghi Effendi said Seal indicates finality, I only said he uses the term "seal" and "last" for Muhammad so I believe your dodgy apologetics claiming it means "signet ring" and not "seal" or "last" are not compatible with the teaching of the founders of your faith.

In my opinion

 

[InvestigateTruth]

He uses the term "Last Adam" interchangeably with "Seal of the Prophets", the implication of that is obvious to me - that in His eyes the terms are equivalent in meaning

You are addressing a strawman here, I never said Baha'u'llah or Shoghi Effendi said Seal indicates finality, I only said he uses the term "seal" and "last" for Muhammad so I believe your dodgy apologetics claiming it means "signet ring" and not "seal" or "last" are not compatible with the teaching of the founders of your faith.

In my opinion

For example Baha'u'llah in the Tablet of Ahmed wrote, the Bab is the King of Messengers.
Does He mean literally?
Any of the Messengers can be called King of Messengers, any of the Messengers can be called the first Adam, any of them can be called their Last, and any if them can be called their Seal.
If you want to conclude that Baha'u'llah is using the Seal and Last interchangeable, fine, but I don't see this.

"It is admittedly obvious that being the “First of the Prophets,” He likewise is their “Seal.”'

To me the above statement of Baha'u'llah Does not indicate, Seal means Last.
What does the word Seal mean? It is a stamp. He is their seal, means he is their stamp. Whatever that means symbolically. Bahaullah does not really make it clear, what is intended by Seal. One can read more than what He says actually.

 

[Truthseeker]

Baha'u'llah in the Book of Certitude wrote that, if all Prophets be called "Seal", it is true. Now, if Seal of Prophets meant end of prophetic cycle, then it means every prophet had ended prophetic cycle.
Is this true though?

I don't believe so. "Signet Ring of Prophets", means the best of the Prophets symbolically. In that sense, when their best has come, thus the prophetic cycle has ended.

Baha'u'llah did not want to get into these arguments too much and tell them Muhammad is not last Messenger and Seal does not mean End of Prophethood. This was His wisdom.
For example, In Iqan Baha'u'llah wrote Jesus went up to the forth Heaven. This was the ideas of the people, He was referring l, otherwise we Bahai do not believe such a thing happend.

Yes, I know about the "fourth heaven" thing which was geared to the audience of the time, according to Shoghi Effendi. That is not something we believe today. Baha'u'llah said in this Hidden Word:

O Son of Beauty!
By My spirit and by My favor! By My mercy and by My beauty! All that I have revealed unto thee with the tongue of power, and have written for thee with the pen of might, hath been in accordance with thy capacity and understanding, not with My state and the melody of My voice.
Bahá’u’lláh, "The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh", a67

He did say things according to the understanding of the people of that time.

Whether you are correct about all this I will leave unresolved. What's important is that there are Manifestations of God after Muhammad. That's apparent to me.

 

[Truthseeker]

The Hadith is true in my opinion. But it has nothing to do with the Title of Signet Ring of Prophets.
Muhammad was saying in Islam, there is no immediate Messenger or Prophet after Him. Comparing to Moses, that after Moses there came a number of Prophets immediately to promote religion of Moses.

Well, I don't know. It is true there was one Prophet after Jesus also, as John of Patmos is considered to have true vision of the future according to Abdu'l-Baha. So you're saying for the first time there was no immediate Messengers to promote Muhammad for the first time in the Abrahmic branch of religion. But isn't there a difference between Prophets and Messengers in the Qur'an? Messengers come with a new Dispensation, and Prophets support the Dispensation, according to what I have believed up to now. I'm ignorant about what the original Arabic word for these were, though, which were translated to "Prophet" and "Messenger".

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Well, I don't know. It is true there was one Prophet after Jesus also, as John of Patmos is considered to have true vision of the future according to Abdu'l-Baha. So you're saying for the first time there was no immediate Messengers to promote Muhammad for the first time in the Abrahmic branch of religion. But isn't there a difference between Prophets and Messengers in the Qur'an? Messengers come with a new Dispensation, and Prophets support the Dispensation, according to what I have believed up to now. I'm ignorant about what the original Arabic word for these were, though, which were translated to "Prophet" and "Messenger".

The whole idea that God called Muhammad Khatam, is to test the Muslims. Since this word can easily and incorrectly be interpreted as last, hence, it caused the whole people of Islam to think there is no more Revelations after Quran. Then God sent new Revelations to test them, if they investigate the truth, or they simply ignore and blindly follow their forefathers. That was the wisdom of it. Because Surrah of Hud, in Quran is all about how people always rejected the Messengers. Now, Quran is a lesson for the Muslim. Once God gives the lesson, He tests practically from the lesson in the Book. If they had understood the message of the Quran, at the time of test, they pass. But if God had told them clearly, their Messnger is not the final Messenger, and that there will always be Messengers, then He could not test them!. It is like giving the answer to the test ahead of time. But to make it even a hard test, He made it appear to them, that their Book, is the final one, and their Messenger the Last One. Tests of God are hard.

"Even as thou dost witness how the people of the Qur’án, like unto the people of old, have allowed the words “Seal of the Prophets” to veil their eyes" Baha'u'llah


"Furthermore, among the “veils of glory” are such terms as the “Seal of the Prophets” and the like, the removal of which is a supreme achievement in the sight of these baseborn and erring souls. All, by reason of these mysterious sayings, these grievous “veils of glory,” have been hindered from beholding the light of truth. " Baha'u'llah

 

[syo]

how the Quran Translators ended up translating it as "Last"?

Copyright reasons?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Copyright reasons?

The Muslim Leaders said, since a Seal is placed at the end of a document, hence, the interpretation of the Seal of Prophets, is the Last Prophet. It is their interpretation, then the worldwide Muslim community just followed their Religious Leaders.

 

[Truthseeker]

The whole idea that God called Muhammad Khatam, is to test the Muslims. Since this word can easily and incorrectly be interpreted as last, hence, it caused the whole people of Islam to think there is no more Revelations after Quran. Then God sent new Revelations to test them, if they investigate the truth, or they simply ignore and blindly follow their forefathers. That was the wisdom of it. Because Surrah of Hud, in Quran is all about how people always rejected the Messengers. Now, Quran is a lesson for the Muslim. Once God gives the lesson, He tests practically from the lesson in the Book. If they had understood the message of the Quran, at the time of test, they pass. But if God had told them clearly, their Messnger is not the final Messenger, and that there will always be Messengers, then He could not test them!. It is like giving the answer to the test ahead of time. But to make it even a hard test, He made it appear to them, that their Book, is the final one, and their Messenger the Last One. Tests of God are hard.

"Even as thou dost witness how the people of the Qur’án, like unto the people of old, have allowed the words “Seal of the Prophets” to veil their eyes" Baha'u'llah


"Furthermore, among the “veils of glory” are such terms as the “Seal of the Prophets” and the like, the removal of which is a supreme achievement in the sight of these baseborn and erring souls. All, by reason of these mysterious sayings, these grievous “veils of glory,” have been hindered from beholding the light of truth. " Baha'u'llah

Wow! I found the following at Bahai-Library.com:

The definition of seal of the Prophets (Khatem al-Anbiyya), and its differing interpretation in the two Faiths has, at times, further increased the discord. A popular Bahá'í response to this when faced with the Muslim perspective on the two terms for Prophethood in Arabic, i.e. Nabi and Rasul (Messenger) has been to state that Muhammad was the last of the Nabi, but not of the Rasul. This point has not swayed many Muslims. Most Muslims use the terms interchangeably, and there are Hadith in which Muhammad also claims to be the Seal of the Messengers (Khatem al-Rasuleen). Bahá'u'lláh has also, in an untranslated portion of the Ishraqat, confirmed that Muhammad is, indeed, the Seal of both the Nabi and the Rasul. This being the case, and in order to increase dialogue between Muslims and Bahá'is, it would be beneficial to explore the concept of Messengers and Prophets as used by present day Islam. Then to explore the Bahá'í concept of the Manifestation and to demarcate a clear reference point for the Bahá'í belief in continuation of revelation beyond the point of Prophethood.

It should be noted that due to restrictions on the length of this paper I have had to be brief in areas where I would have preferred more depth and to generalize at times. I have also had to ignore whole traditions in Islam such as Ibn Arabi's concept of the perfect man so as to keep this paper within its defined length.

For simplicity's sake the concepts of prophet and messenger will henceforth be subsumed under the term Prophet, while there is some difference theologically between the two for brevity they will be discussed together.

Comparison of the concepts of Prophet and Messenger in Islam and Manifestation in the Baha'i Faith

He supposedly goes on to explain all of this works, but I have not read this yet. I don't know how he can work this out, though, by disscusing it by using the device of discussing "the concepts of prophet and messenger... subsumed under the term Prophet".

Anyhow, Muhammad did say He was Seal of the Mesengers, or as you would say "the ring of the Messengers".

 

[stvdv]

Before knowing it means signet Ring, When you read "Seal of Prophets", did you think it is Seal as in stamp, or you thought it is Seal as in closing?

My answer to your question:
I knew for sure that Muslims claiming their Prophet is "the final" is plain wrong (just common sense + gut feeling + conscience)

The Google definitions below are quite simple and straightforward, nothing to superimpose "last Prophet", that's just mental fantasy. And Koran even warns us that it's evil minded men who try to find mischievous and convenient interpretation

It just means it is authentic, as are other God revealed Scriptures before and after the Koran


And I am glad that you came to the same conclusion "it doesn't mean last Prophet". Would be blasphemy to pin God down this way. God decides whether or not new Prophets are needed.

Google definitions:
1) a device or substance that is used to join two things together so as to prevent them from coming apart or to prevent anything from passing between them.

2) a piece of wax, lead, or other material with an individual design stamped into it, attached to a document as a guarantee of authenticity.

 

[Debater Slayer]

This thread in a way is a continuation of another thread:

What Questions come to your mind when reading Quran 3:7?

In my opinion, and personal experience, verse 3:7, is like a key that unlocks true understanding of not only the Quran, but also, it is a key to understanding all Revelations from God being Abrahamic or non-Abrahamic. 2 So, I am curious, if you read verse 3:7 of the Quran, does it cause you to...

www.religiousforums.com

Although it may not be clear at first how they are related.

For those who do not read Arabic, this would seem strange if they are told that the true and correct translation of the verse of Quran, commonly known as where it says "Seal of Prophets", indeed from linguistic point view is a common wrong translation. It is widespread false translation for generations. When a false idea spreads worldwide, for generations, then no body thinks ever, ever that they were told wrong.

Even for Arabs, and Persians this may seem a false claim, to tell them, this word known as Khaatam (خاتَم) DID NOT mean Seal or Last at the time of Revelation of the Quran.

Those who know Arabic well at the expert level, in fact should know that, there are two similar words, one is Khaatam, and another Khaatim. They are both written the same in Arabic: خاتم. But pronounced differently. While the Latter means "Terminator", the former means "Ring". In fact even today, if you go to a Jewelry in an Arab country and want to buy a Ring, you ask for خاتم.

You don't believe me? Just look:

خاتم - Google Search

Even look here:

Seal of Solomon - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

More precisely Khaatam, in Classical and early Islam meant a "Signet Ring"



Now, then how the Quran Translators ended up translating it as "Last"?

The word خاتم has two pronunciations because of the choice of diacritic on the penultimate letter, the تاء (the T in khaatam or khaatim). With a fatha diacritic, it is rendered khaatam, meaning "the last/conclusion of." With a kasra, it is rendered khaatim, meaning "one who [or that] finishes/concludes."

The difference between the two words is quite subtle, with the latter being a noun denoting and emphasizing the subject—the doer of "khatm," or conclusion/finalization—and the former being a noun denoting the last, concluding, or finalizing person or thing.

 

[dybmh]

The whole idea that God called Muhammad Khatam, is to test the Muslims.

Is there anything in Quran to validate this idea that the Quran itself uses its own words to test?

Testing is division. This leads directly to 3:7. Those who use allegory to divide are ( depending on translation ):

• hearts are given to swerving from the truth
• deviant hearts
• stubborn hearts
• their hearts (is) perversity
• in whose hearts is doubt
• hearts are prone to falter

So, it wouldn't make sense for the words chosen by God would themself be a test.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

The word خاتم has two pronunciations because of the choice of diacritic on the penultimate letter, the تاء (the T in khaatam or khaatim). With a fatha diacritic, it is rendered khaatam, meaning "the last/conclusion of." With a kasra, it is rendered khaatim, meaning "one who [or that] finishes/concludes."

The difference between the two words is quite subtle, with the latter being a noun denoting and emphasizing the subject—the doer of "khatm," or conclusion/finalization—and the former being a noun denoting the last, concluding, or finalizing person or thing.

Did you have a chance to look at the link I provided?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Is there anything in Quran to validate this idea that the Quran itself uses its own words to test?

Testing is division. This leads directly to 3:7. Those who use allegory to divide are ( depending on translation ):

• hearts are given to swerving from the truth
• deviant hearts
• stubborn hearts
• their hearts (is) perversity
• in whose hearts is doubt
• hearts are prone to falter

So, it wouldn't make sense for the words chosen by God would themself be a test.

"Behold, God does not disdain to propound a parable of a gnat, or of something [even] less than that. Now, as for those who have attained to faith, they know that it is the truth from their Sustainer - whereas those who are bent on denying the truth say, "What could God mean by this parable?" In this way does He cause many a one to go astray, just as He guides many a one aright: but none does He cause thereby to go astray save the iniquitous"
2:26

This verse tells us that, God uses parables. And by these parables He misguides those who want to deny the truth. What truth to deny?
See, Quran is the Book for Muslims, thus its tests are for them as well.
So, Muhammad is Ring of Prophets. It means, if Prophets had a ring, that Ring was Muhammad. Muhammad is resembled to the Ring on the finger of all Prophets. This is a Parable. What does it mean really? God misguides many, and guides many by it.

Yes, the purpose of tests, is to separate the iniquitous from others. The iniquitous would say, Ring of Prophets, or Seal of Prophets, means the Last One, because when you seal a document, it means it is finished.
But as 3:7 says, only God knows its interpretation.