Muhammad is not Seal of Prophets, He is Ring of Prophets!

[danieldemol]

My reaserch tells me, in early Islam, Khaatam, had only one meaning. And that was Signet Ring.

I withhold agreement to this.

It is like the Sun in English. There is only one thing that we call the Sun in English.

Now, the Sun can be used metaphorically as well. Sun of Righteousness.
Khaatam can be used Metaphorical as well. Khaatam of Prophets, or signet ring of prophets. But what is intended by this?
Quran verse 3:7 says, no one knows its interpretation except God and those well-grounded in knowledge.
That's the whole point I am making here.

Sure, and in this case (of the Baha'i teachings) "God and those well grounded in knowledge" is a reference to Baha'u'llah and Shoghi Effendi respectively. Not to yourself as I see it.

If you had seen my other thread, about verse 3:7. Why there are verses which are unclear in the Quran?

Because these verses are meant to conceal the prophecies about the Next Revelation of the Quran, and even produce a misunderstanding that Muhammad is Last one, by calling Him, Khaatam, which is an unclear word (unclear what is intended, but many thought it means Seal as in Last).
And if you have seen my other thread about God creating Dark and Light, then this is exactly how God creates Dark, if you know what I mean. By using the unclear words, which misleads those who God does not want to guide, thus God creates darkness.

I believe if your God misleads people without a decent reason (which I'm pretty sure you are unable to provide) your God is malevolent.

In my opinion.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

I withhold agreement to this.

Sure, and in this case (of the Baha'i teachings) "God and those well grounded in knowledge" is a reference to Baha'u'llah and Shoghi Effendi respectively. Not to yourself as I see it.

I believe if your God misleads people without a decent reason (which I'm pretty sure you are unable to provide) your God is malevolent.

In my opinion.

Off course I do not consider myself well-grounded in knowledge. I am saying Baha'u'llah or Shoghi Effendi, or Abdulbaha did not say, the interpretation of Khaatam of Prophets, is so and so.
For example look at Some Answered Questions, how Abdulbaha interprets and elaborates. Baha'u'llah did not really interpret Khaatam. Likewise Shoghi effendi, just used a Translation of Quran in this case. He did not say Khaatam of Prophets means so and so.

God in Quran said, there are unclear verses, that no one knows its interpretation except God. Now, if anyone insists I know its interpretation, it is obvious, he or she does not really believe in the Quran. Then how can anyone who has believed Quran is from God, says, I know Khaatam of Prophets interpretation is the Last Prophet? This is how God separates the true believers and guides them, from the fake belivers and misgiides them as Baha'u'llah explained in the Iqan, if you remember.

 

[Truthseeker]

"For all that hath been exalted in the Bayán is but as a ring (khaatam) upon My hand, and I Myself am, verily, but a ring (Khaatam) upon the hand of Him Whom God shall make manifest"!

Apparently it could be translated either way.

So, the only reason that in Iqan, Shoghi Effendi translated the title of Muhammad as Seal, is because most translators had already used the word Seal, so, He just used their translation for the title of Muhammad. It is not like God forbidden, Shoghi Effendi did not know, it really means Ring.

Or did he know that the meaning of the word was ambiguous, could be translated one way or the other according to the context?

It is fruitless, why argue? There is no value in it. There is only ego at stake.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Apparently it could be translated either way.

Or did he know that the meaning of the word was ambiguous, could be translated one way or the other according to the context?

It is fruitless, why argue? There is no value in it. There is only ego at stake.

I think it is beneficial for Bahais to know that. I believe many of the Bahais think Khaatam means Seal as in Last. So, if their Muslim friends asks them, why you believe after the Last Prophet, another Prophet came, they don't have a good answer.
In my view, and I feel certain, that the actual and accurate translation should be Signet Ring of Prophets. You can make your own conclusion.

 

[Truthseeker]

I think it is beneficial for Bahais to know that. I believe many of the Bahais think Khaatam means Seal as in Last. So, if their Muslim friends asks them, why you believe after the Last Prophet, another Prophet came, they don't have a good answer.
In my view, and I feel certain, that the actual and accurate translation should be Signet Ring of Prophets. You can make your own conclusion.

I think I see what you mean, it could be an alternative argument to the usual Seal of Prophets argument. I will copy your translations where Khaatam is translated differently for possible future use.

 

[Truthseeker]

I believe if your God misleads people without a decent reason (which I'm pretty sure you are unable to provide) your God is malevolent.

God does not mislead, in my opinion, God allows them to mislead themselves. That is the meaning of Judgement Day, some judge rightly, and some don't.

 

[danieldemol]

God does not mislead, in my opinion, God allows them to mislead themselves. That is the meaning of Judgement Day, some judge rightly, and some don't.

In that case I believe your supposedly All-Powerful God has acted negligently, but I suppose we are getting off the original topic which is the meaning of Khatam in context.
In my opinion.

 

[Harel13]

From linguistic point of view, it means "Signet Ring", which is a Ring with an ornament that something or some words are engraved on it.
It could have been used to stamp a document as well.
But "Seal of Prophets " is inaccurate, because in English, "Seal" can mean different things.

But in Classical Arabic, when they wanted to emphasize Station of a Person, they said it with this word. For example, "Ring of Poets", "Ring of Believers", "Ring of Immigrants",..etc.

It is a symbology, as if, let's say, a Ring, that qualifies a person to be a Poet, a Believer, or a Prophet. This is just how it was used in Classical Arabic.
So, Ring of Prophets, symbolically means, Muhammad is a Ring, that only when other Prophets wore the Ring, then they had permission to be a Prophet. There is a Hadith that exactly says this.

Khotam in Hebrew has the same double meaning. In any case, you seem to be missing the point of the term: A signet ring in the old world was used to sign a wax or clay seal laid upon a scroll. That means it is very much the object that closes a scroll. Changing Muhammad's title to "(signet) ring of the prophets" does not change that it still equals in symbolical meaning "seal of the prophets".

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Khotam in Hebrew has the same double meaning. In any case, you seem to be missing the point of the term: A signet ring in the old world was used to sign a wax or clay seal laid upon a scroll. That means it is very much the object that closes a scroll. Changing Muhammad's title to "(signet) ring of the prophets" does not change that it still equals in symbolical meaning "seal of the prophets".

Understood.
in Arabic, there are two words.
One written ختم Khatm، and the other خاتم Khaatam.
The former means Seal, which can include Signet Rings. But the latter specifically means Ring. The one used for Muhammad is the latter.

ختم - ويكيبيديا

ar.wikipedia.org

خاتم - ويكيبيديا

ar.wikipedia.org

From Wikipedia:


Because it is used to attest to the authority of its bearer, the ring has also been seen as a symbol of power, which is why it is included in the regalia of certain monarchies. After the death of a Pope, the destruction of his signet ring is a prescribed act clearing the way for the sede vacante and subsequent election of a new Pope.[41]

Signet rings are also used as souvenir or membership attribute, e.g., class ring (typically bear the coat of arms or crest of the school), as an alternative to one with a stone. One may also have their initials engraved as a sign of their personal stature.[citation needed]

The less noble classes began wearing and using signet rings as early as the 13th century. In the 17th century, signet rings fell out of favor in the upper levels of society, replaced by other means for mounting and carrying the signet. In the 18th century, though, signet rings again became popular, and by the 19th century, men of all classes wore them.[42]

Seal (emblem) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

But the word "Seal", does not bear so much meaning into it. Because Seals exist today, and everyone can have. But signet Rings are from old times and had a different meaning. Anyone can have a Seal today bearing their name. I actually had one, when I was a teenager with my name on it. I also have one now, it is an Engineering Seal.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

I think I see what you mean, it could be an alternative argument to the usual Seal of Prophets argument. I will copy your translations where Khaatam is translated differently for possible future use.

Actually from discussing this with you and @danieldemol , now i discoverd a fuller understanding of the term Khaatam of Prophets.


There is a Hadith from Imam Ali:

: "ولم يجز لنبي نبوة حتى يأخذ خاتما من محمد فلذلك سمي خاتم النبيين ، محمد سيد النبيين وأنا سيد الوصيين"


" Imam Ali has said,

" It is not permitted to a Prophet to do Prophecy untill he recieves a Khaatam from Muhammad, for this, He is named the Khaatam of Prophets. Muhammad is the Master of the Prophets and I am the Master of Imams"

Now, let's ponder about this Hadith. Obviously at the time of Prophets who had appeared before Muhammad, He was not born yet, then how could it be said that they had recieved a Khaatam from Muhammad to be a Prophet?
This is actually an allusion to a future Prophet after Muhammad.
For example the Bab said, He is like a Khaatam on the finger of next Manifestation.
What does that mean really?
I understand that to mean, the Next Manifestation after the Bab, would recieve Authority and Permission from the Bab. Now since the Bab had announced about Baha'u'llah, in this sense, the Bab was like a Ring of Authority on the Finger of Baha'u'llah.
Likewise Muhammad had announced about The Qaim, or Mahdi. In this sense Muhammad was the Khaatam that give Authority and Permission to the Next Prophet. Thus Baha'u'llah said, if all Prophets be called Khaatam it is true, meaning, every Prophet is like a Ring of Authority on the finger of the next one. Thus Moses announced about Messiah. Jesus announced about the Comforter, and so forth. Thus any Prophet is Khaatam, or Ring of Authority.

Now, here is another Hadith:

Muhammad said to Imam Ali, You are Khaatam of Imams, as I am Khaatam of Prophets.
In this sense, Ali gave Authority to the Imams after himself, by announcing that there will be 11 Imams after him, and Muhammad gave Authority to the two Prophets after Himself, the Mahdi, and Return of Christ.

 

[Truthseeker]

In that case I believe your supposedly All-Powerful God has acted negligently, but I suppose we are getting off the original topic which is the meaning of Khatam in context.
In my opinion.

Yes, that's true, the topic has been departed from.

 

[Truthseeker]

Actually from discussing this with you and @danieldemol , now i discoverd a fuller understanding of the term Khaatam of Prophets.


There is a Hadith from Imam Ali:

: "ولم يجز لنبي نبوة حتى يأخذ خاتما من محمد فلذلك سمي خاتم النبيين ، محمد سيد النبيين وأنا سيد الوصيين"


" Imam Ali has said,

" It is not permitted to a Prophet to do Prophecy untill he recieves a Khaatam from Muhammad, for this, He is named the Khaatam of Prophets. Muhammad is the Master of the Prophets and I am the Master of Imams"

Now, let's ponder about this Hadith. Obviously at the time of Prophets who had appeared before Muhammad, He was not born yet, then how could it be said that they had recieved a Khaatam from Muhammad to be a Prophet?
This is actually an allusion to a future Prophet after Muhammad.
For example the Bab said, He is like a Khaatam on the finger of next Manifestation.
What does that mean really?
I understand that to mean, the Next Manifestation after the Bab, would recieve Authority and Permission from the Bab. Now since the Bab had announced about Baha'u'llah, in this sense, the Bab was like a Ring of Authority on the Finger of Baha'u'llah.
Likewise Muhammad had announced about The Qaim, or Mahdi. In this sense Muhammad was the Khaatam that give Authority and Permission to the Next Prophet. Thus Baha'u'llah said, if all Prophets be called Khaatam it is true, meaning, every Prophet is like a Ring of Authority on the finger of the next one. Thus Moses announced about Messiah. Jesus announced about the Comforter, and so forth. Thus any Prophet is Khaatam, or Ring of Authority.

Now, here is another Hadith:

Muhammad said to Imam Ali, You are Khaatam of Imams, as I am Khaatam of Prophets.
In this sense, Ali gave Authority to the Imams after himself, by announcing that there will be 11 Imams after him, and Muhammad gave Authority to the two Prophets after Himself, the Mahdi, and Return of Christ.

This is making my head whirl. I'm having trouble processing all of it, so I saved this in a document for further consideration. I can't answer this right now.