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Muhammad in Bible!

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Anastasios, Mar 11, 2006.

  1. Anastasios

    Anastasios Member

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    Any ideas?



    Let me put my initial references:
    "And he said, the Lord came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; and shined forth from Mount Paran and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand went a fiery law for them. (Deuteronomy 33:2)


    In this verse Moses is promised three manifestations of the glory of God. The first of these appeared on Sinai in the time of Moses. Time passed. The second manifestation promised in the prophecy was to take place at Seir, a part of the world near where the miracles of Jesus took place. "Rising up from Seir," therefore, meant the advent of Jesus.
    The third manifestation of divine glory was to take its rise from Paran, and Paran (Arabic Faran) is the name of the hills which lie between Mecca, the birth place of Muhammad, and Medina, the town where he died. According to the Old Testament, Ishmael, the ancestor of Muhammad, lived in this part. Thus we have in the Bible:
    And God was with the lad (Ishmael): and he grew, and dwelt in the wilderness, and became an archer. And he dwelt in the wilderness of Paran. (Genesis 21:20-21)


    Historical and geographical evidence shows that the descendents of Abraham lived in Arabia. All of them held Mecca and Kaaba, the house of worship built by Abraham, in great reverence. His son Ishmael first settled in Mecca. Genesis gives the names of twelve sons of Ishmael including two named Tema and Kedar. (Genesis 25:13-16) This is further supported by the testimony of Isaiah where we read:
    The burden of Arabia. In the forest of Arabia shall ye lodge, O ye traveling companies of Dedanim.The inhabitants of the land of Tema brought water to him that was thirsty, they provided with their bread him that fled. For they fled from the swords, from the bent bow, and from the grievousness of war. For thus hath the Lord said unto me, Within a year, according to the years of an hireling, and all the glory of Kedar shall fail: And the residue of the number of archers, the mighty men of the children of Kedar, shall be diminished: for the Lord God of Israel hath spoken it. (Isaiah 21:13-16)


    This prophetic passage is a picture of the Battle of Badr which took place about a year after the Holy Prophet's migration from Mecca to Medina. In this battle the sons of Kedar , the people of Mecca and the territories around, unable to withstand the fierceness of Muslim swordsmen and archers, sustained disastrous defeat. God made a handful of men, poorly armed and without provisions, the means of inflicting this humiliation on an army led by experienced generals.
    The battles with the Meccans continued against heavy odds until such time that the Prophet Muhammad entered Mecca after a struggle of several years. This was the time when ten thousands of saints accompanied him. The Holy Prophet declared that the message of God had been completed in the form of the Holy Quran. Thus the prophecy of Moses was fulfilled that the Lord would shine forth from Paran with ten thousands of saints, with a fiery Law in his right hand. Thus also the prophecy of Jesus was fulfilled that the spirit of Truth "will guide you into all truth." His fiery Law, the Holy Quran, consumed all impurities of flesh and turned the grossest hearts into pure gold."
    Dr. Khalil Ahmad Nasir
    for more information: http://www.alislam.org/books/in-bible/index.html
     
  2. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    A good example of silliness grounded in ignorance. Seir is a reference to Edom. While the verse says a good deal about the history of monotheism, claims of reference to Jesus and Muhammad are childish delusion.
     
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  3. joeboonda

    joeboonda Well-Known Member

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    That is right, Mohammad was a false prophet, teaching at least two lies, that Jesus did not die on the cross and thus did not rise again, and that Isaac was not the one Abraham was to sacrifice, but that Ishmael was, proven wrong by the Dead Sea Scrolls. The Bible warns that anyone who denies Christ is anti-christ.

    2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
    2:23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.
    (King James Bible, 1 John)
    4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
    4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world
    (King James Bible, 1 John)
     
  4. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    Where in the DSS?
     
  5. Anastasios

    Anastasios Member

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    I am sorry but it is not a lie, it is the revelation of truth.

    Gen. 22.2: Then God said, "Take your son, your only son, Isaac, whom you love, and go to the region of Moriah. Sacrifice him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains I will tell you about.
    There seems that we have a contradiction here. Isaac cannot be the only son of Abraham since he had an elder brother, Ishmael. The expression "your only son" is possible only with Ishmael, before Isaac was born.

    No muslim denies that Jesus was Christ. He was recognized very honorably. We have just different approach to him and to his mission.


    New Testament
    Matthew 7: 21- Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 - Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23 - Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

    Quran
    [5:117] And when Allah will say, 'O Jesus, son of Mary, didst thou say to men, 'Take me and my mother for two gods beside Allah?' he will answer, 'Holy art THOU, I could never say that which I had no right. If I had said it, Thou wouldst have surely known it. Thou knowest what is in my mind, and I know not what is in Thy mind. It is Thou alone Who art the Knower of all hidden things;
    [5:118] 'I said nothing to them except that which Thou didst command me - Worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord. And I was a witness over them as long as I remained among them, but since Thou didst cause me to die, Thou, hast been the Watcher over them, and Thou art Witness over all things;
    [5:119] 'If Thou punish them, they are Thy servants; and if Thou forgive them, Thou surely art the Mighty, the Wise. '
    [5:120] Allah will say, 'This is a day when only the truthful shall profit by their truthfulness. For them are Gardens beneath which streams flow; therein shall they abide forever. Allah is well pleased with them, and they are well pleased with Him; that indeed is the supreme achievement.'
    [5:121] To Allah belongs the Kingdom of the heavens and the earth and whatever is in them; and He has power over all things.

    Regards.
     
  6. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    It's plagiarism. Worse - it's ignorant plagiarism. You're discrediting yourself and making a mockery of Islam. Good.
     
  7. Ori

    Ori Angel slayer

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    Does this mean you think it's good to mock anothers religion?

    Or am I just missing the point yet again? :confused:
     
  8. Popeyesays

    Popeyesays Well-Known Member

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    The arguers here might find this link interesting:

    http://www.missionislam.com/comprel/muhbib.htm

    I enquired, "According to you, are there not hundreds of prophecies regarding the coming of Jesus in the Old Testament." The dominee interjected, "Not hundreds, but thousands!" I said, "I am not going to dispute the 'thousand and one' prophecies in the Old Testament regarding the coming of Jesus Christ, because the whole Muslim-world has already accepted him without the testimony of any Biblical prophecy. We Muslims have accepted the de facto Jesus on the authority of Muhammad alone, and there are in the world today no less than 1,000,000,000 (1 in 5 people in the world is a Muslim) followers of Muhammad who love, respect and revere the great Messenger of God - Jesus Christ - without having the Christians to convince them by means of their Biblical dialectics. Out of the 'thousands' of prophecies referred to, can you please give me just one single prophecy where Jesus is mentioned by name? The term 'Messiah', translated as 'Christ', is not a name but a title. Is there a single prophecy where it says that the name of the Messiah will be Jesus, and that his mother's name will be Mary, that his supposed father will be Joseph the Carpenter; that he will be born in the reign of Herod the King, etc. etc? No! There are no such details! Then how can you conclude that those 'thousand' prophecies refer to Jesus (peace be upon him)?"
    What is Prophecy?
    The dominee replies, "You see, prophecies are word-pictures of something that is going to happen in the future. When that thing actually comes to pass, we see vividly in these prophecies the fulfilment of what had been predicted in the past." I said, "What you actually do is that you deduce, you reason, you put two and two together." He said, "Yes." I said, "If this is what you have to do with a 'thousand' prophecies to justify your claim with regards to the genuineness of Jesus, why should we not adopt the very same system for Muhammad ?" [7] The dominee agreed that it was a fair proposition, a reasonable way of dealing with the problem.
    I asked him to open up Deuteronomy, chapter 18, verse 18 (the fifth Book of the Christian and Jewish Bibles), which he did. I read from memory the verse in Afrikaans, because this was my purpose in having a little practice with the language of the ruling race in South Africa. [8]
    "N Profeet sal ek vir hulle verwek uit die midde van hulle broers, soos jy is, en ek sal my woorde in sy mond le, en hy sy sal ann hulle se alle wat ek hom beveel."
    The English translation reads as follows:
    "I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren like unto thee, and I will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him."
    (Bible, Deuteronomy 18:18)
    Prophet Like Moses
    Having recited the verse in Afrikaans, I apologised for my uncertain pronunciation, The dominee assured me that I was doing fine. I enquired, "To whom does this prophecy refer?" Without the slightest hesitation he answered, "Jesus!" I asked, "Why Jesus - his name is not mentioned here." The dominee replied, "Since prophecies are word-pictures of something that is going to happen in the future, we find that the wordings of this verse adequately describe him. You see the most important words of this prophecy are 'soos jy is' (like unto thee), - Like You - like Moses, and Jesus is like Moses." I questioned, "In which way is Jesus like Moses?" The answer was, "In the first place Moses was a Jew and Jesus was also a Jew; secondly, Moses was a Prophet and Jesus was also a Prophet - therefore Jesus is like Moses and that is exactly what God had foretold Moses - 'soos jy is'." "Can you think of any other similarities between Moses and Jesus?" I asked. The dominee said that he could not think of any. I replied, "If these are the only two criteria for discovering a candidate for this prophecy of Deuteronomy 18:18, then in that case the criteria could fit any one of the following Biblical personages after Moses: Solomon, Isaiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, Hosea, Joel, Malachi, John the Baptist etc, because they were also all "Jews" as well as "Prophets". Why should we not apply this prophecy to any one of these Prophets, and why only to Jesus? Why should we make fish of one and fowl of another?" The dominee had no reply. I continued, "You see, my conclusions are that Jesus is most unlike Moses, and if I am wrong I would like you to correct me."

    -------------------

    The simple truth is that in those hundreds of prophecies of Jesus Christinas like to cite in the Old Testament, not once is Jesus NAMED by His name, His mother's name, His place of birth or anything concrete. It actually gets worse if you go to a direct translation of the Hebrew (the TaNakh), since the "Old Testament" is not translated from the Hebrew at all.

    Regards,
    Scott

    Regards,
    Scott
     
  9. Smoke

    Smoke Done here.

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    You've got to be kidding with this.
     
  10. Anastasios

    Anastasios Member

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    Please, :tsk: I am very well aware about what I am saying, writing and doing here. You don't need to be disrespectful. It is not a way of defence from someone who has common sense. If you have arguments, put them forward istead of what you are saying above.
     
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  11. Popeyesays

    Popeyesays Well-Known Member

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    If anybody plagiarizes something in ignorance (not knowing he is plagiarzing) can it be plagiarism at all? Of course not, it is coincidence at worst. Some adjectives reduce an argument to absurdity - "ignorant plagiarism" is one of those oxymorons that discredit an argument.

    Regards,
    Scott
     
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  12. Judgement Day

    Judgement Day Active Member

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    Muhammad pbuh was an honorable and trustworthy man. He never tell lies. He's entitled Al-Amin(means the Trustworthy) and As-Sadiq(means the Truthful) by his people, foe and friend. Although a lot of the Meccans opposed Muhammad pbuh, they entrusted him with their valables because they knew of no other man whom they could trust as much as him. Muhammad was not only trusted by the Meccans but also gain trust from other parts of the world. When the Byzantine Emperor Heraclius received a letter from the Prophet inviting him and his people to Islam, he called the Arab traders who were then visiting his country. He asked Abu Sufyan, their leader, "Did you ever find Muhammad telling a lie before his claim to Prophethood?" He replied that he had not. Then Heraclius said, "I asked you if he had ever told a lie and you replied that he had not. I am sure, if he had spoken unjustly against Allah, he would not have abstained from speaking falsely against human-beings." Heraclius then questioned him about the Prophet's general behavior and conduct with people. Abu Sufyan replied, "Muhammad is nobly born, is honest and truthful, and has never broken a pledge. He enjoins his followers to worship none but One God and to pray to Him alone. He preaches kindness, piety and tolerance towards all and his followers are on the increase."

    JD
     
  13. ashai

    ashai Active Member

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    Ushta

    At the risk of a an expression of 'fire and brimstone',:rolleyes: 'if one who denies Christ is an anti christ there are % Billion anti-christ , at least, in the planet, including a lot od folks right here on RF.

    Gee!,Yyou guys , have to relax, let loose the collar, regain circulation you know? Wow:faint:

    Ushta te
    Ashai!

    :dan:
     
  14. ashai

    ashai Active Member

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    Ushta Anastasios

    Don't worry with him he is a boor insecure in his beliefs he afraid that he might actually be punished by the god he mocks , he has a miserable life and tries to make others miserable too:banghead3

    Ushta te
    Ashai
     
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  15. gnostic

    gnostic The Lost One

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    I had the same argument over the Deuteronomy with Muslims at islam.com.

    As to the geographical locations (Deut. 33:2), Moses was speaking of the pass appearance of the "Lord". not of a prophecy of the future.

    I seriously think you need to re-read the verses, Anastasios.

    Who is "them", Moses is talking about? The Israelites who followed him out of Egypt.

    Another name for Sinai is Horeb. As Jayhawker Soule said, Seir referred to the land or mountain in Edom.
    Which goes on list Esau's sons, which are tribal names of the Edomites. There are other earlier references to Seir in the Genesis (32:4; 33:14, 16), and all of them (except chapter 14) in regarding to Esau. Chapter 14:6
    The Horites, here, existed before Ishmael was born. Abraham didn't sleep with Hagar, until chapter 16.

    Paran proper referred to the wilderness region of the Sinai Pensinsula, west and southwest of Edom, nowhere near Mecca. The wilderness of Paran probably included part of Edom, and therefore Seir would sit within the bound of Paran.

    Yes, Ishmael moved to Paran, but so what? The Israelites had trek through the whole Paran; they have been in Sinai, Paran and Seir for some times before Moses' death and before they entered Canaan.

    You are reading the Deuteronomy out of context. Moses speak of these place where the "Lord" had already appeared before the Israelites.

    As to Abraham living in Arabia, or being anywhere near Mecca is totally absurd, and you have no proof. All the Genesis had given about Ishmael's sons are names, but that doesn't mean Abraham lived in Arabia in some point in time.

    Again, I would ask to take the time and place in context, in regarding to the quote you've posted from Isaiah 21. Isaiah flourished in the time when the kingdom of Judah and Israel was under pressures from their neighbours. Now re-read Isaiah 21:16 again.

    Excuse me, Anastasios, but how does "In exactly one year" in Isaiah's time equate over 1300 years in Muhammad's time. I think you need to do some serious calculation if you can mistake 1 year with a thousand year.
     
  16. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    You may think so, but I beg to differ; there can be no agreement between Muslims and Christians, on this point.

    And you might be interested in this, which explains exactly why:-
    http://debate.org.uk/topics/theo/states_christ_02.html

    A Comparison of the Biblical and Islamic Views of the States of Christ

    Part 1: The State of Humiliation (ii)


    4. The Sufferings of Christ

    A. The Biblical view




    The Scriptures, e.g. Acts 8:28-35, present Jesus is the Suffering Servant prophesied by Isaiah - cf. especially chapter 53:6-10:
    6. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all.
    7 He was oppressed, yet when he was afflicted he did not open his mouth; as a lamb that is led to the slaughter, and as a sheep that before its shearers is dumb, so he did not open his mouth.
    8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away; and as for his generation, who among them considered that he was cut off out of the land of the living for the transgression of my people to whom the stroke was due?
    9 And they made his grave with the wicked, and with a rich man in his death; although he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
    10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he has put him to grief: when you shall make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his offspring, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.



    The Gospel records display the hostility Jesus received from His contemporaries, even those of His own town: - Matthew 13:57 'And they were offended at him. But Jesus said to them, A prophet is not without honour, except in his own country, and in his own household.' John 1:11 'He came to his own, and those that were his own did not receive him.' This even included, at first, the unbelief of His own family – John 7:5 'For even his brothers did not believe on him.' Attempts and plots were made to kill Him - John 5:18 'Because of this the Jews sought all the more to kill him, because he not only broke the sabbath, but also called God his own Father, making himself equal with God.' 7:1 'And after these things Jesus walked in Galilee: for he was unwilling to walk in Judaea, because the Jews sought to kill him.'
    1. Thus we can say that He suffered at the hands of his fellows - in various ways outlined above.
    2. He suffered inasmuch as that He, the sinless One, was obliged to dwell in a sinful environment - Matthew 17:17 'And Jesus answered and said, O faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you? How long shall I bear with you?' John 8:23 'And he said unto them, You are from below; I am from above: you are of this world; I am not of this world.'
    3. Especially, He suffered in His loneliness - in Gethsemane, He was forsaken by everyone - Matthew 26:56 'But all this is coming to pass, so that the scriptures of the prophets might be fulfilled. Then all the disciples left him, and fled.'
    4. He suffered Temptation. Indeed, Hebrews 4:15 indicates that He endured the full range of temptation – 'For we do not have a high priest that cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but one that has been in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin.' Hebrews 5:7-8 makes clear the fact that such temptations were essential to His ministry - 7 Who in the days of his flesh, having offered up prayers and supplications with crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and having been heard for his godly fear, 8 though he was a Son, yet He learned obedience by the things which he suffered...' This text is often misunderstood, especially by Muslims, so the explanation of the great Princeton Professor Geerhardus Vos is appropriate at this point:
      The point of identification here is the experiential knowledge of obedience, as appears from the correspondence between this conception in verse 8 and verse 9: 'having learned obedience, He became the author of salvation to those that obey.' It has been too quickly inferred, however, from this statement that the author of Hebrews ascribes to Jesus a progressive moral development in general and associates this with the [FONT=OLBGRK,Courier New]teleiwoi[/FONT]s he predicates of Him. It must be plain to the most superficial reader that 'obedience' here has a very specific meaning: it is obedience to the call of suffering, for the Saviour learned it 'from what He suffered.' If in the two preceding passages the suffering appeared as a school in which was learned the strength of temptation as inherent in suffering, here we meet with the positive counterpart to this conception: the suffering as a school of obedience through the overcoming of the temptation proceeding from it. Because the obedience developed itself in suffering, the period of its development is called 'the days of His flesh,' i.e., the days in which He was subject to the weakness of the natural earthly life, and therefore had to conquer the dread of pain and death which is inseparable from this state. The prayers and supplications which He is said to have offered up were not that He might be saved from death, but that He might be saved out of it; they were expressions of that obedience He was learning, not expressions of a mood of weakness He had to unlearn. For the writer adds that He was heard, He obtained what He prayed for, and this was not escape from death, but salvation through and out of death.
      From the above it appears how we must understand the statement that 'He learned obedience.' 'Learning' is not here equivalent to acquiring what was not previously there in principle, far less to acquiring that of which the opposite was previously there. Chapter 10:5-7shows that the writer ascribes to Jesus the spirit of perfect obedience at the very moment of His coming into the world, for he makes Him say in the words of the Psalmist: 'Lo, I am come to do thy will, 0 God,' and the will of God he referred to is specifically the will that the Messiah should suffer and die. 'Learning' simply means to bring out into the conscious experience of action, that which is present as an avowed principle antecedent to the action. There is a difference between the desire and resolve to obey and the carrying through of this attitude of mind in the concrete circumstances of life, whilst natural inclinations assert themselves in the opposite direction. It should be noticed that the article stands before '[FONT=OLBGRK,Courier New]upacohn[/FONT], which shows once more that a specific type of obedience is in the author's mind. The contrast also indicated in the words 'although being a Son' is not a contrast between sonship and obedience in general, but between sonship and obedience evinced in suffering. It is natural for a son to obey, it is not natural for a son to have to learn obedience in this way.
      Now it is this training in obedience that the passage brings into connection with the [FONT=OLBGRK,Courier New]teleiwoi[/FONT]s of Christ. Having learned obedience and having been made perfect, He became the author of salvation. It is most natural to take the 'having been made perfect' here as resumptive of 'having learned obedience,' so that it adds not a second qualification to the first, but interprets the fact of the obedience which Christ learned in its significance as a qualification for His office. The rendering strictly ought to be: 'having learned obedience and thus been made perfect.' This, however, does not yet decide how the author understands the 'perfecting.' Does he mean to say: having learned obedience and having been made perfect in obedience, He became the author of salvation? Or is his meaning rather: having learned obedience and thereby been made a perfect high priest, He became author of salvation? The latter is to be preferred, because the emphasis in the context rests on the likeness between the obedience of Christ and that of believers. Because He practiced obedience Himself, He can appreciate and reward the obedience of those who follow Him. To introduce the thought of the absolute perfection of the Saviour's obedience would tea to obscure this parallelism. Of course the author conceived of Christ's obedience as absolutely perfect. But here it was out of place to call attention to this. What he affirms is simply that through the practice of obedience Christ became a perfect high priest, since now He is able to endow with eternal salvation all those who obey Him in however imperfect a degree. 18
    It is a matter of discussion as to whether Jesus could or could not sin, but two facts are certain: He did not sin, and the temptations were real. The setting of the Temptation by Satan in the desert is in the nature of fulfilment of prophecy, as we saw in our previous paper. Jesus endures the same temptations as Israel faced whilst in the desert with Moses, but whereas Old Testament Israel miserably failed the test, Jesus passes with flying colours.
     
  17. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    Pt 2.
    Deuteronomy 8:2ff, looking back to Exodus 16:2-3, recalls how God tested Old Israel with hunger, a test, like the others, which would reveal whether Israel knew itself to be, and thus whether in truth it was the People of God. By its moaning and desiring to return to Egypt, Israel displayed itself devoid of faith and thus fails. Jesus, on the other hand, although hungry, does not respond to Satan, but quotes Deuteronomy 8:3 to display that His is the true Son of God, unlike the failed old 'son'.

    The Temple pinnacle temptation was to put God to the test
    . Faith in God does not require props, or constant dynamic displays. By threatening to stone Moses at Massah, Israel drew from the LORD the act that proved them to be His people - Exodus 17:1-7, so Satan tempts Jesus to seek outward evidence that He is God's Son by forcing the hand of the LORD, but Jesus refuses, quoting Deuteronomy 6:16.
    The third temptation reflects the collapse into total lack of faith that characterised Israel in Exodus 34 when Moses was up the mountain. Israel committed idolatry. Deuteronomy 6:13-14 forbids the worship of other gods, and Jesus quotes this in passing the test here. The significance of this is that Israel was to secure its national existence by no compromises with the heathen, especially their gods. They were not to be a nation like any other, but rather to be a holy nation. Jesus refuses to the invitation to become a ruler like any other through the means Satan offers - obeisance to him, compromise with the forces controlling the world.
    It must be underlined that these were not only temptations from Satan, they were tests from God - note how Jesus was led by the Spirit into the desert, which the Old Testament reveals to the place of testing: the true Son of God is revealed thereby - Jesus, the true Israel - Matthew 4:1 'Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.' Temptation of itself does not indicate inward sin - rather, it has its origins in the natural desires - James 1:13-15. Adam and Eve were still sinless when they were tempted.
    To understand the importance of the sufferings of Christ, we must consider the purpose of His incarnation – John 3:16 -to provide salvation for anyone with faith in Him; 1 John 3:8 – to destroy the works of the Evil One. This involved the ultimate suffering on the cross, for our sakes. We shall see later that His death on Calvary is characterised as the Passive obedience of Christ. This is made by possible by His active obedience. His role as the Suffering Servant ' implies commission by the Father, subjection to, and fulfilment of, the father's will. All of this involves obedience.' 19 We see evidence of this in His Baptism by John - Matthew 3:15 - it was performed for the sake of righteousness, identifying with the people He came to save. His work is performed at the behest of the Father - John 4:34; 6:38; 10:17-18. Note the emphasis in the Epistles on the subject - Romans 5:19; Philippians 2:7; Hebrews 5:8, etc.
    The Atonement was necessary by reason of the demands of Divine Law. 1 Peter 1:19 shows that the offering had to be an entity without 'blemish or defect', since that which was blemished by iniquity could never remove such pollution. Thus Christ, as the offering, must live as a flawless believer - offering perfect and total adherence to the Torah, both in outward action and inward thought - in short, He must love God with all His heart, etc, and love His neighbour as Himself, with all that this implies. Berkhof, makes the vital point that '...if Christ had suffered only the penalty imposed on man, those who shared in the fruits of His work would have been left exactly where Adam was before he fell.' 20 As the old hymn says, 'in Him the tribes of Adam boast more blessings than their father lost'. The righteous life, as well as the death of Christ gains for us the following blessings:
    1. Freedom from the Law as the means of either entering or maintaining eternal Life - Galatians 4:4, 5.
    2. Adoption as Sons of God - (ditto).
    3. An inheritance and position of heirship - v7. The Righteousness of Faith (both in terms of entry and maintenance) supersedes that of the Torah - Romans 10:3, 4; 8:3, 4; 2 Corinthians 5:21.
    B. The Islamic view





    Ahmed Deedat, in The God that never was, refers to Hebrews 5:7-8 in a dismissive and derogatory way, and, as in the whole of his pamphlet, ignores the Biblical dogma (of which he must be aware), that Jesus was simultaneously divine and human, states that '"God" Learnt Through Experience: "Learned he obedience by the things which he suffered." (Hebrews, 5:8)' 21 We have already addressed this issue. Deedat also attacks the Biblical narrative of the temptations of Jesus, once again either displaying his complete ignorance of the theological import of the narrative as explained above, or wilfully engaging in pejorative polemics:
    THE TEMPTING OF "GOD" The Devil Tempted "God" For 40 Days: "And immediately the spirit driveth him into the wilderness. And he was there in the wilderness forty days, tempted of Satan." (Mark, 1:12-13) The Devil Tempted "God" Continuously: "And when the devil had ended all the temptation, he departed from him for a season." (Luke, 4:13) Like the Sinners, "God" Was Tempted In All Things: "But (he) was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin." (Hebrews, 4:15) True God Cannot be Tempted With Evil: "God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man." (James, 1:13) Only The Ungodly Are Tempted With Evil: "But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed." (James, 1:14) 22




    However, the Qur'an does picture Jesus as enduring suffering. Whilst Islam denies original sin, it does hold to the sinlessness of the Prophets - Surah Al-An'am 6:85 - 'And Zakariya and John and Jesus and Elias: all in the ranks of the righteous...' The Biblical position, however, is that Jesus was uniquely sinless, something Islam traditionally denies in favour of the collegiality of the prophets. However, in seeming contradiction to this assertion, the Hadith does imply that only Jesus had no charge of sin against Him, something no other prophet can claim, and equally the Qur'an apparently implies that even Muhammad had to ask forgiveness for his sins. 23 Jesus is described as a 'holy son' in Surah Maryam 19:16ff. 24 It is likely that this unwitting affirmation of the unique sinlessness of Jesus reflects Qur'anic borrowing from Christianity, and the presence of this belief in both Qur'anic and Hadith texts is significant. Similarly, the contradictory claim of the impeccability of all the prophets is probably an attempt to assert equality for Muhammad with respect to Jesus. There is not the same sense in Islam as in the Bible that it involved a state of humiliation for the sinless one to enter the realm of the sinful, but in practical terms, the fact that the ministry of Jesus was met by unbelief and hostility is definitely apparent. The Jews are portrayed in the Qur'an as being guilty of unbelief with respect to the ministry and message of Jesus, S. 3:52ff:
    52 ...Jesus found unbelief on their part...
    54 And (then unbelievers) plotted and planned and Allah too planned and the best of planners is Allah.
    55 Behold! Allah said: 'O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme...'




     
  18. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    Pt3.
    The Muslim translator and commentator, Yusuf Ali, refers to the iniquity of the Jews in this passage:
    394 Read this with iv. 157, where it is said that 'whereas they slew him not nor they crucified him but it was made dubious unto them.' The guilt of the Jews remained, but Jesus was eventually taken up to Allah. (3.55)
    395 Jesus was charged by the Jews with blasphemy as claiming to be Allah or the son of Allah...
    396 Those who follow thee refers to those who followed Jesus in contrast to the Jews who rejected him. (3.55)



    One aspect of the suffering of Jesus according to Islam is found in S. 4:156, which indicates that Mary was accused of immorality, implying that Jesus was illegitimate: 'That they rejected faith: that they uttered against Mary a grave false charge.' Yusuf Ali comments: 'The false charge against Mary was that she was unchaste. Cf. xix. 27-28. Such a charge is bad enough to make against any woman, but to make it against Mary, the mother of Jesus, was to bring into ridicule Allah's power itself.' Samuel Zwemer in his book The Muslim Christ suggests that the statement in S. 4:172 'Christ disdaineth not to serve and worship Allah...' is a reference to 'the title of the Messiah in Isaiah as the servant of Jehovah.' 25 Whether this is so or not, there seems to be no specific theological necessity for Jesus to suffer according to Islam. Rather, the Qur'an simply makes the historical observation that this occurred, and notes that this was the common inheritance of the prophets:
    Surah Al-Baqara 2:87ff
    87 We gave Moses the Book and followed him up with a succession of Apostles; We gave Jesus the son of Mary clear (Signs) and strengthened him with the holy spirit. Is it that whenever there comes to you an Apostle with what ye yourselves desire not ye are puffed up with pride? Some ye called impostors and others ye slay!
    91 When it is said to them: 'believe in what Allah hath sent down' they say 'We believe in what was sent down to us'; yet they reject all besides even if it be truth confirming what is with them. Say: 'Why then have ye slain the prophets of Allah in times gone by if ye did indeed believe?'
    Surah An-Nisaa 4:155
    155 (They have incurred divine displeasure): in that they broke their Covenant: that they rejected the Signs of Allah; that they slew the Messengers in defiance of right; that they said 'Our hearts are the wrappings (which preserve Allah's Word; we need no more)'; nay Allah hath set the seal on their hearts for their blasphemy and little is it they believe.
    156 That they rejected faith: that they uttered against Mary a grave false charge.
    157 That they said (in boast) 'We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary the Apostle of Allah'; but they killed him not nor crucified him but so it was made to appear to them and those who differ therein are full of doubts with no (certain) knowledge but only conjecture to follow for of a surety they killed him not.
    Al-Tirmidhi Hadith 6093
    Narrated by Ali ibn AbuTalib
    Allah's Messenger (peace be upon him) said to him, "You have a resemblance to Jesus whom the Jews hated so much that they slandered his mother...Ahmad transmitted it.



    Given that Muhammad, rather than Jesus, is the central figure in Islam, we should not be surprised that there is no presentation of Jesus as the Man of Sorrows and acquainted with grief. In the Bible, His sufferings presage and climax in the Crucifixion, which Islam denies. Islam, however, presents the sufferings of Jesus as presaging those of Muhammad. It can be seen that ultimately, the ministry of Muhammad supplants the role of the crucifixion of Christ. In this respect, it is significant that the Qur'an contains nothing comparable to the temptations of Jesus in the New Testament. Given that Jesus is not presented as either the climax or the crux of salvation-history, this is not surprising. As we have seen, the temptations of Jesus as presented in the Bible play a specific salvatory role, for which the Islamic portrait of Jesus has no place or point. In this respect, the temptations of Jesus would be superfluous as to the Islamic theological schema. At any rate, it is taken for granted that prophets are sinless. However, Zwemer notes a Muslim tradition about the temptation of Jesus that obviously borrows from the Biblical account:...............
     
  19. TashaN

    TashaN Veteran Member
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  20. Anastasios

    Anastasios Member

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    As you wish. First, let me make clear some point is the verse, that you gave as “And approached from Ribeboth-kodesh, Lightning flashing at them from His right.”

    I don’t know Hebrew, but I put the verse here in the case someone needs to read it. Sorry for this.
    &#1489; &#1493;&#1463;&#1497;&#1468;&#1465;&#1488;&#1502;&#1463;&#1512;, &#1497;&#1456;&#1492;&#1493;&#1464;&#1492; &#1502;&#1460;&#1505;&#1468;&#1460;&#1497;&#1504;&#1463;&#1497; &#1489;&#1468;&#1464;&#1488; &#1493;&#1456;&#1494;&#1464;&#1512;&#1463;&#1495; &#1502;&#1460;&#1513;&#1468;&#1474;&#1461;&#1506;&#1460;&#1497;&#1512; &#1500;&#1464;&#1502;&#1493;&#1465;--&#1492;&#1493;&#1465;&#1508;&#1460;&#1497;&#1506;&#1463; &#1502;&#1461;&#1492;&#1463;&#1512; &#1508;&#1468;&#1464;&#1488;&#1512;&#1464;&#1503;, &#1493;&#1456;&#1488;&#1464;&#1514;&#1464;&#1492; &#1502;&#1461;&#1512;&#1460;&#1489;&#1456;&#1489;&#1465;&#1514; &#1511;&#1465;&#1491;&#1462;&#1513;&#1473;; &#1502;&#1460;&#1497;&#1502;&#1460;&#1497;&#1504;&#1493;&#1465;, &#1488;&#1513;&#1491;&#1514; (&#1488;&#1461;&#1513;&#1473; &#1491;&#1468;&#1464;&#1514;) &#1500;&#1464;&#1502;&#1493;&#1465;.
    And he said: The LORD came from Sinai, and rose from Seir unto them; He shined forth from mount Paran, and He came from the myriads holy, at His right hand was a fiery law unto them.
    (http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt0533.htm)


    Septuaginta (from TLG): &#954;&#945;&#8054; &#949;&#7990;&#960;&#949;&#957; &#922;&#8059;&#961;&#953;&#959;&#962; &#7952;&#954; &#931;&#953;&#957;&#945; &#7973;&#954;&#949;&#953; &#954;&#945;&#8054; &#7952;&#960;&#8051;&#966;&#945;&#957;&#949;&#957; &#7952;&#954; &#931;&#951;&#953;&#961; &#7969;&#956;&#8150;&#957; &#954;&#945;&#8054; &#954;&#945;&#964;&#8051;&#963;&#960;&#949;&#965;&#963;&#949;&#957; &#7952;&#958; &#8004;&#961;&#959;&#965;&#962; &#934;&#945;&#961;&#945;&#957; &#963;&#8058;&#957; &#956;&#965;&#961;&#953;&#8049;&#963;&#953;&#957; &#922;&#945;&#948;&#951;&#962;, &#7952;&#954; &#948;&#949;&#958;&#953;&#8182;&#957; &#945;&#8016;&#964;&#959;&#8166; &#7940;&#947;&#947;&#949;&#955;&#959;&#953; &#956;&#949;&#964;&#8125; &#945;&#8016;&#964;&#959;&#8166;.
    KJV: And he said, The Lord came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand went a fiery law for them.
    Well if you take into consideration, my translation of the passage from Septuagent is:
    “And he said, The Lord comes from Sinai (&#7973;&#954;&#949;&#953; is present tense), and shined from Seir upon us (&#7969;&#956;&#8150;&#957; is plural dative form of &#7952;&#947;&#8061;, which means I); he made haste from mount Pharan with ten thousands of Kades, angels! (or maybe “messengers”! as its first literal meaning) together with him (were) from his right hand.



    Latin Vulgate, St. Jerome:
    (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0060&layout=&loc=Deuteronomy+33.1)
    et ait Dominus de Sina venit et de Seir ortus est nobis apparuit de monte Pharan et cum eo sanctorum milia in dextera eius ignea lex.

    Rainbow Missions, Inc.: He said, Yahweh came from Sinai, Rose from Seir to them; He shined forth from Mount Paran, He came from the ten thousands of holy ones: At his right hand was a fiery law for them.
    My translation would be possiblyl like (of course if you care:)):
    He said, The Lord comes from Sinai (again present tense), rose from Seir to us (again, nobis); He came in sight (or appeared, appareo) from Mount Pharan and with ten thousands of saints, at his right hand was a fiery law.


    I would be grateful if someone could help with Hebrew.

    Well, after this analysis. I will give another comment on it:


    http://jamaat.net/letters/deut33.html

    But to the issue at hand, lets dissect this verse, and look at it keyword by keyword.

    And he (Moses) said, the Lord came from Sinai, and rose from Seir unto
    them; he shined Forth from Mount Paran, and he came with Ten Thousand
    Saints: from his right hand went a fiery law For them.
    (HOLY BIBLE) Deuteronomy 33: 2

    Remember the verse (Deut, 18:18) about Moses speaking of a Prophet of that would arise like himself. If you've read Sheikh Deedats book, you'll see that this refers to the Prophet of Islam, and not Jesus (Peace be upon them).
    In this statement by Moses, he is making a prophecy about the Prophet who would be like him. He only mentioned one Prophecy of a Prophet that was to come, and it's fair to say that this Deut 33:2 can be linked with Deut 18:18.
    This is subject to debate, and its only a possible interpretation.

    "THE LORD CAME FROM SINAI, AND ROSE FROM SEIR UNTO THEM ; HE SHINED FORTH FROM MOUNT PARAN..."

    According to traditional Biblical atlases, Sinai, Seir and Paran are placed in the Sinai Peninsula. This is incorrect for obvious reasons, this verse makes mention of three distinct entities. It does not make sense for someone to come from one area, rise from that same area, and shine from that very same area. Its needless repetition and self-contradictory. Placing it in a more modern understanding, Does it make sense for someone to say
    "I came out of California, then went to Los Angeles, to make an appearance in San Francisco"
    I know its confusing, but to scholars (all Christian), these places have been placed in their proper geographical landscape.
    SEIR if you look at a map today, it is the Arabic ASIR (a region in western Saudi Arabia). Kamal Salibi, a Lebanese Christian scholar in his book
    "The Bible came from Arabia" says in regards to Seir on page 204
    "..The name Asir ('sr, or 'syr') denotes the tribal highlands around Abha.. The name appers to be a survival, by metathesis of the Biblical 'Seir', or 'Mount Seir'"
    and it became applied (although the author does not indicate when) to the administrated (south of Makkah) Western borderland. While the Hejaz became the administrated north of Makkah.
    Mount Paran, these are the mountain or series of mountains, that exist just east of Makkah.
    In Arabic, it's pronounced F'aran. This is only a difference of linguistcs; as the Jews pronounced Palestine with a 'P'. We pronounce it as Philistine, the beginning having an 'F' vocal sound. In the Douay (Catholic) version, the Deuteronomy 33:2 verse is written as

    "..he hath appeared from mount Pharan.."

    Which leans more towards the Arabic/Aramaic way of pronouncing it.
    The mention of Paran is significant, as it rules out any Jewish or Christian claim to this verse, unless they want to contend that their Prophets dwellings where in Arabia, especially on the outskirts of Makkah. Who else supports this fact?, the Book of Genesis does. Remember the story when Hagar and her son Ishmael are banished to a wilderness. Where was this wilderness?

    And he dwelt in the wilderness of Paran: and his mother took him a wife out of the land of Egypt.
    Genesis 21:21

    And Arab and Islamic history and tradition shows that Ishmael dwelt in the Western Arabia (particularly around the area of Makkah), and him and his father built the Kaaba. And in due time, the descendants dwelt in this region, and the Prophet Muhammed (PBUH) sprang also from the very same region. It would be ludicrous to say that the Arabs dwelt in the Sinai peninsula, especially when their is no Biblical or anthropological support for this notion. And who would know their own origins better, the Jews of Canaan, or the Arabs themselves. I don't think the Hebrews were in the game of recording the traditions and wars, trades etc of the Arabian people.
    What we have established here is that this verse is to take place in this specific region of the Middle east; Seir and Paran which is in Western Arabia. Not in the Sinai peninsula.
    This verse is very explicit in terms of historical context and geography as you can see. Now if you know your Islamic history pretty well, you'll remember that the Prophet of Islam's triumphant march onto Makka in 630 C.E. In which he smashed the idols that adorned the Kaaba. On this event, he was accompanied by 10 000 sahabas (companians). All Islamic sources seem to be unanimous on this number. Biblical history does not have any recording of 10 000 persons of any physical/historical event in Paran and Seir.





     
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