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Featured Muhammad and the Bible Proofs, an Islamic quandary

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Tony Bristow-Stagg, Aug 3, 2018.

  1. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg Ocean Immersion
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    In my search of faiths over the past years, I came across quite compelling thoughts that Muhammad is foretold of in the Bible.

    One would have to consider that if the Bible is to be seen as accurate with prophecy in the Abrahamic line, to have left out mentioning Muhammads Revelation, which had control over the Holy Land for centries prior to the 2nd appareance of Christ, that would indeed subtract from the potency of all prophecy.

    Now the quandry for a Muslim and to many Christians it would also seem. To show that Muhammad is in the Bible, one must also consider a new Revelation given in 1844. This new Revelation of the Bab, is what allows for Muhammad to be proved in the Bible, as it gives us the explanation of the 1260 of Revelation.

    The year AH1260 also being the year AD1844.

    Thus the greatest proof of Christ, also confirms Muhammad, but we need the revelation of the Bab to prove it.

    I am happy to share what I have found to date, I am finding this has been discussed in detail in many places, so this thread is about the quandry.

    If a new Revelation can prove your Faith is foretold in a past scripture, but you dare not consider the new Faith.

    What to do?

    Peace be upon all.
     
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  2. Ellen Brown

    Ellen Brown Well-Known Member
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    You'll find the Prophet indirectly mentioned in Genesis 16:12. Many experts believe that Islam came from this ancestry. Or perhaps it was Abraham's punishment for adultery? Or perhaps Sarah was being punished for being such a *****?

    Are you confused about how many times the Messiah has come? Jews believe, "Not at all". Most Christians believe, "Once". Muslims essentially believe, "Once", also.

    I'll bite, who is Bab? Oh, you are Bahi'i, why didn't you just say so?
     
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  3. England my lionheart

    England my lionheart Rockerjahili Rebel
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    Proof is the quandry for any religion imo
     
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  4. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg Ocean Immersion
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    I say Muhammad is a Messenger from God and the Koran was revelation from God, a miracle indeed. Am I a Muslim?

    I also see that is the same God that Christ gave a Message from. Am I a Christian?

    I see names become a barrier and as I have no intenet to push a Faith upon any person, I am here to talk about and find a unity of purpose that I find in all.

    I came across this quandry in my study of faiths based in God. I have not yet looked in any detail at faiths that do not have God.

    Thus if Muhammad can be proved in detail from both Daniel and Revelation by using the date of 1844/1260 where the declaration of the Bab took place, that is a quandry. First for a Muslim who may have developed a doctrine that there will be no more messengers and likewise a Christian that has a doctrine that after Christ there will be no other.

    I see a rejection pattern, in the claim of finality against a history where God doeth as He Willeth by sending more and more Messengers.

    Peace be upon Muhammad, you and all.
     
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  5. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg Ocean Immersion
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    That could be a good observation.

    My thought would be, that it is each of us that faces the quandry. It is up to us to resolve these problems, when they are shown to us.

    Peace be with you always.
     
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  6. England my lionheart

    England my lionheart Rockerjahili Rebel
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    Its not a problem for me but if Muhammed being in the song of Solomon being presented as proof for example that's definitely not true or proof,people do have different ideas of what proof is though.
     
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  7. Neuropteron

    Neuropteron Member

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    [QUOTE="Muhammad is foretold of in the Bible"

    Revelation given in 1844.
    This new Revelation of the Bab
    1260 of Revelation.

    I am happy to share what I have found to date, I am finding this has been discussed in detail in many places, so this thread is about the quandry.

    If a new Revelation can prove your Faith is foretold in a past scripture, but you dare not consider the new Faith.

    What to do? [/QUOTE]
    ---------------------

    I could not find your reference to Revelation 1844 not 1260 nor any mention of Muhammad in the Bible.

    Both Moses and Jesus were used to introduce new systems of things and each established himsel as God's pophet by the performance of many signs.
    But where were the signs establishing Muhammad as God's prophet and proving that God had introduced a new system of things in Arabia ?

    Could Muhammad say as did Jesus:"if you do not believe my message, believe my works, signs, miracles ?
    No, he could not, for he had none; none to establish the authenicity of his message.

    be well
     
  8. Ellen Brown

    Ellen Brown Well-Known Member
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    I won't challenge anything you said. I am sufficiently confused that I just say I am an Abrahamic Religionist researcher that writes really strange Science Fiction stories.
     
  9. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg Ocean Immersion
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    That quite understandable that one can not find it. After all how many saw Abraham, Moses and Jesus in writings prior to those Messages? How many Accepted in years after the Message?

    One had to accept Abraham, Moses and Jesus to see that they were indeed the Ones Promised in Gods Covenants.

    Now lets look, is it in the Bible

    These time periods occur eight times in scripture:

    All the above are references to 1260, written in different forms. Now we can use Biblical Scholars to come to and understanding. I will not repeat it here but this link will explain the Day for year Principal - Day-year principle - Wikipedia

    So 1260 years in the Bible and the year 1260 in the Islamic Calender is 1844.

    Calendar Converter At this link put 1260 in the bottom Islamic Year.

    Now we can understand why William Miller was excited when He got 1844 from other Daniel prophecies, no doubt he would have been much more excited if he had know this fact.

    It appears the key is excepting this is the question, "is Islam expecting any promised returns". To which it is, both Sunni and Shia......interesting!

    Peace be upon you and all.
     
    #9 Tony Bristow-Stagg, Aug 3, 2018
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  10. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg Ocean Immersion
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    That's great, as no challenge is needed. Confusion is good as that enables us to meditate and resolve the confusion.

    Truth can be a lot more amazing than fiction. Personally I see all our fiction is drawn for what is already possible ;) We just think we are clever and come up with brilliant ideas. I like to credit all knowledge possible to the one source, that is God.

    Peace be with you and all.
     
  11. Devananda

    Devananda Well-Known Member
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    Genesis 16:12 is not referring to the Prophet Muhammad at all. It refers rather to Ishmael and his descendants.
     
    #11 Devananda, Aug 3, 2018
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  12. Ellen Brown

    Ellen Brown Well-Known Member
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    I'm sorry, your reading comprehension could be better. Please go back and look at what I said.
     
  13. Ellen Brown

    Ellen Brown Well-Known Member
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    You'll find the Prophet indirectly mentioned in Genesis 16:12. It was from Hagar and Ishmael's ancestry that Muhammad PBUH came.
     
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  14. Devananda

    Devananda Well-Known Member
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    This is true. However, that could just as well be a reference to any Arab person underneath the Sun. However, I don't really think that matters too much because the verse – by and large – is quite negative in reading, so I do not think it wise to establish the legitimacy of any supposed Teacher based on an indirect reference found from within a rather condemning verse. That is, if such is your understanding. If not, then pardon my own misunderstandings.
     
    #14 Devananda, Aug 3, 2018
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  15. Ellen Brown

    Ellen Brown Well-Known Member
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    Look at the world around you. I do feel it unfair to essentially blame Ismael for the world's troubles, but on the other hand, humanity could have had the world in crisis without him. So, does the verse carry a hidden meaning? That's doubtful. So what does the Creator do to the Anvil of the Heavens to make it turn out such suffering and pain? I am not acquiescent to the idea that humanity, the perfect Creation, did all this without the influence of the shaitan. Did the Creator make us flawed in the first place?

    The thing that everyone seems to miss is that the only important thing might be that when someone from the Heavenlies, Jesus they say, shows up, will we do as he asks? I intend to.
     
  16. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg Ocean Immersion
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    In Revelation I see this being so;

    "...Muḥammad was the root and ‘Alí the branch, like Moses and Joshua. It is said they were “clothed in sackcloth”, meaning that they appeared to wear not a new raiment but an old one. In other words, they would initially appear to be of no consequence in the eyes of other peoples and their Cause would not seem new. For the spiritual principles of the religion of Muḥammad correspond to those of Christ in the Gospel, and His material commandments correspond for the most part to those of the Torah. This is the symbolism of the old raiment..."

    I found that interesting.

    Peace be upon you and all.
     
  17. Ellen Brown

    Ellen Brown Well-Known Member
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    I'm sad that both Christianity and Islam went off the rails.
     
  18. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg Ocean Immersion
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    Man has a history of this.

    What I see, is that God guides us always, even when we are getting it wrong. Thus at any time, we have the chance to impememt change in our lives.

    Peace be with you.
     
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  19. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
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    It would be interesting to hear from Muslims how they perceive the significance of the year AH 1260/1844 AD with Islamic prophecy. There was certainly a time of intense Meesianic expectation amongst both Muslims and Christians.

    For example Christians were expecting the return of Christ and William Miller predicted 1844 as you have alluded to:

    [​IMG]

    Actuallly 1844 was considered the great disappointment as his followers so strongly believed 1844 was the year, but I believe they were looking in the wrong places (everywhere but Persia).

    William Miller (preacher) - Wikipedia

    What did happen that year was The Bab, one of the prophets of my religion (the Baha'i Faith) proclaimed a Message that the promised Day had come. Like Elijah He was preparing the way for One whose Cause would be greater. The man was widely recognised as Baha'u'llah by most of the Babis.

    One of the specific prophecies in Islam referred to the Madhi or Qa'im.

    Mahdi - Wikipedia

    Like you, I'm doing research in this area to further my understanding so perhaps we could be of assistance to one another.

    I'm comfortable with an exegesis of the book of Revelation and Daniel and there are important sections that refer to Islam. Its all a work in progress so we may have similar ideas. It would be useful to better understand the Hadiths and how they relate to the same prophecy.

    What are your thoughts about the number 666 in Revelation 13:16-18?
     
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  20. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
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    I hope you don't mind me sharing this but as you had mentioned Islam I thought you might be interested in the nineth chapter of the book of revelation. It sets the scene leading up to the nineteenth century as the Islamic dispensation is unfurled. Its an example of a Baha'i exegesis of some of the more challenging biblical verses.

    Revelation 9

    1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.
    2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.
    3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
    4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
    5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
    6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.
    7 And the shapes of the locusts were like unto horses prepared unto battle; and on their heads were as it were crowns like gold, and their faces were as the faces of men.
    8 And they had hair as the hair of women, and their teeth were as the teeth of lions.
    9 And they had breastplates, as it were breastplates of iron; and the sound of their wings was as the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle.
    10 And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months.
    11 And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.
    12 One woe is past; and, behold, there come two woes more hereafter.


    This prophecy concerns the Muslim invasions of Asian and African Christendom that began about 633 AD. At first, Muslim warriors were noted for their justice and tolerance of other Faiths, such as Christianity and Judaism. Muslim warriors were, however, ferocious fighters against idol worshippers and other enemies of monotheism. It is important to understand that the aggressive invasions of Islam were not instigated by Muhammad but by the Successors (Caliphs) following the death of Muhammad.

    The question of the Successorship was the historical origin of the Shi'ah and Sunni divisions of Islam. The first four Caliphs, often called the Rightly-Guided, generally followed the policy laid down by Muhammad. However, according to Shi'a belief, Muhammad had actually chosen His son-in-law, 'Ali, as His Caliph. Although 'Ali later arose to His appointed station, He was assassinated before He could consolidate His power. The caliphate fell to the Umayyad pretender, Mu'awiya, whose father, Abu-Sufyan, was the arch-enemy of Muhammad and His Revelation. The course of political intrigue set in motion by Abu-Sufyan eventually achieved success, and, by beclouding the principles of Islam, Abu-Sufyan became a "fallen star."

    The bottomless pit is the pit of error. The smoke arising from the pit symbolizes obscurement. The sun of spiritual truth was dissensions, abrogation of obscured, and the atmosphere of nearness to God was stifled by the smoke.

    The scorpion was a quickfirer that permitted rapid discharge of arrows. John describes the plague of mounted warriors as "locusts." The magnificent horses of the Arabian warriors are commemorated in fable. Grass, green things and trees are the commoners, the righteous people and their spiritual leaders. The command not to hurt the righteous was given by Muhammad.

    A "month" is 30 years therefore 5 months is 150 years. The Muslim Empire was carved out in a space of about 150 years, from the initial invasions of 633 AD until the peak of the Empire under Caliph Harun ar-Rashid in 786 AD. Verses 7 to 10 describe the appearance of the mounted Arabian warriors (locusts), their quickfirers (scorpions), and the sound of their chariots (wings).

    Abaddon and Apollyon mean "The Destroyer" and refer to the Umayyad dynasty personified by Abu-Sufyan.

    The woe that is past is the Advent of Muhammad. The two remaining woes are to be the Advents of the Bab and Baha'u'llah.

    Forgive me please. I get a little excited when Islam and the Bible are mentioned, especially in regards to the islamic year AH 1260 or 1844AD.
     
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