Moving Towards Atheism or Theism? Shifts, New Beliefs, Etc.

[DagonVarunaMitraApolloZan]

(If this first post doesn't make sense, please read several of my posts underneath it where I repeatedly explain the concept and the sliding bar or spectrum from the extreme left end to the extreme right end so you can figure out where on it you used to sit, where on it you currently sit, and what you may be shifting towards or back to)

Do you feel you are moving towards Atheism or towards Theism or moving at all in any direction? Are you here to learn? To practice? To fool around? To enjoy?

If you are moving towards or have moved towards Theistic ideas, please let me know the whole story or how you are feeling and dealing with everything now and what seemed to move you towards that.

The same if you are moving ir have moved towards or into atheism.

I am an extreme theist on the spectrum, an extreme atheist would be someone who:

Vote Code 0(Singular True Random Unintelligent Chaos and Circumstance Determinism No Agency)
genuinely does not believe there is any intelligence whatsoever generating or interacting with experience or reality and influencing what emerged and emerges and that nothing whatsoever with any intelligence is responsible for anything generated.

Vote Code 1,2,3(Multiple "Dead" Forces)
In between somewhere before the next point is someone who thinks there are multiple vying forces doing so unconsciously.

Vote Code 4 the X(Self Only 1 and 2)
In the middle would be someone who thinks they themselves are the intelligence responsible for all that they experience and is generated as their experience, on the more atheistic end they mean it more physically and on the more theistic side as they themselves are somehow bringing about everything almost magically.

Vote Code 5 split(Multiple Intelligences with Agency)
in the middle between the last and next is multiple independent intelligences working against or together consciously and with power.

Vote Code 6 a.k.a 7(Singular Intelligence and Singular Agency of The Only Living Power Only)
At the other extreme end is a singular "external" or in other terms even if also internal, not exclusive and not personally controlled singular power generating everything.

Where are you on a spectrum like this, where are you headed or moving at all if you think about it and notice how through your life you may have moved and how gradual the moving has been if at all or rapid and sudden and what the causes were or why you think such has occurred or is occurring.

I was inspired to write this after reading some comments (Deja Vu sensation occurring) which seemed to discuss past or present pondering and was eager to also invite newcomers to join in and discuss what is going on with them and has gone on with them.

Please also discuss if and what you have shifted from and towards in detail, like if you went from Christian to pagan on what or how.

All the various beliefs and philosophies fit onto that spectrum somewhere.

 

[Secret Chief]

Well I'm here! I'm sorry, but i can't really relate to the jist of your OP and the options, but that's probably just me.

 

[Spirit of Light]

Do you feel you are moving towards Atheism or towards Theism or moving at all in any direction? Are you here to learn? To practice? To fool around? To enjoy?

If you are moving towards or have moved towards Theistic ideas, please let me know the whole story or how you are feeling and dealing with everything now and what seemed to move you towards that.

The same if you are moving ir have moved towards or into atheism.

I am an extreme theist on the spectrum, an extreme atheist would be someone who:

Vote Code 0(Singular True Random Unintelligent Chaos and Circumstance Determinism No Agency)
genuinely does not believe there is any intelligence whatsoever generating or interacting with experience or reality and influencing what emerged and emerges and that nothing whatsoever with any intelligence is responsible for anything generated.

Vote Code 1,2,3(Multiple "Dead" Forces)
In between somewhere before the next point is someone who thinks there are multiple vying forces doing so unconsciously.

Vote Code 4 the X(Self Only 1 and 2)
In the middle would be someone who thinks they themselves are the intelligence responsible for all that they experience and is generated as their experience, on the more atheistic end they mean it more physically and on the more theistic side as they themselves are somehow bringing about everything almost magically.

Vote Code 5 split(Multiple Intelligences with Agency)
in the middle between the last and next is multiple independent intelligences working against or together consciously and with power.

Vote Code 6 a.k.a 7(Singular Intelligence and Singular Agency of The Only Living Power Only)
At the other extreme end is a singular "external" or in other terms even if also internal, not exclusive and not personally controlled singular power generating everything.

Where are you on a spectrum like this, where are you headed or moving at all if you think about it and notice how through your life you may have moved and how gradual the moving has been if at all or rapid and sudden and what the causes were or why you think such has occurred or is occurring.

I was inspired to write this after reading some comments (Deja Vu sensation occurring) which seemed to discuss past or present pondering and was eager to also invite newcomers to join in and discuss what is going on with them and has gone on with them.

Please also discuss if and what you have shifted from and towards in detail, like if you went from Christian to pagan on what or how.

All the various beliefs and philosophies fit onto that spectrum somewhere.

I am 100% moving away from atheism, never been an atheists and will never be one, nobody can change that within me.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Do you feel you are moving towards Atheism or towards Theism or moving at all in any direction? Are you here to learn? To practice? To fool around? To enjoy?

If you are moving towards or have moved towards Theistic ideas, please let me know the whole story or how you are feeling and dealing with everything now and what seemed to move you towards that.

The same if you are moving ir have moved towards or into atheism.

I am an extreme theist on the spectrum, an extreme atheist would be someone who:

Vote Code 0(Singular True Random Unintelligent Chaos and Circumstance Determinism No Agency)
genuinely does not believe there is any intelligence whatsoever generating or interacting with experience or reality and influencing what emerged and emerges and that nothing whatsoever with any intelligence is responsible for anything generated.

Vote Code 1,2,3(Multiple "Dead" Forces)
In between somewhere before the next point is someone who thinks there are multiple vying forces doing so unconsciously.

Vote Code 4 the X(Self Only 1 and 2)
In the middle would be someone who thinks they themselves are the intelligence responsible for all that they experience and is generated as their experience, on the more atheistic end they mean it more physically and on the more theistic side as they themselves are somehow bringing about everything almost magically.

Vote Code 5 split(Multiple Intelligences with Agency)
in the middle between the last and next is multiple independent intelligences working against or together consciously and with power.

Vote Code 6 a.k.a 7(Singular Intelligence and Singular Agency of The Only Living Power Only)
At the other extreme end is a singular "external" or in other terms even if also internal, not exclusive and not personally controlled singular power generating everything.

Where are you on a spectrum like this, where are you headed or moving at all if you think about it and notice how through your life you may have moved and how gradual the moving has been if at all or rapid and sudden and what the causes were or why you think such has occurred or is occurring.

I was inspired to write this after reading some comments (Deja Vu sensation occurring) which seemed to discuss past or present pondering and was eager to also invite newcomers to join in and discuss what is going on with them and has gone on with them.

Please also discuss if and what you have shifted from and towards in detail, like if you went from Christian to pagan on what or how.

All the various beliefs and philosophies fit onto that spectrum somewhere.

I don't understand what you mean by vote codes (after re-reading). Usually, based on life circumstances etc we tend to shift what we believe, don't believe, etc. A lot of people who are theist had a revelation of some sort. Probably quite a few who are atheist may be the same or never was introduced with the concept of god "as true" to begin with. So, shifting maybe depends on age, where one is in life, how open they are, and do they question their experiences.

Since I don't believe deities exist, there would have to be a huge shift for me to believe in deities-maybe a revealing experience or profound revelation of some sort. If so, I would most definitely fall under polytheism in and of itself. As for which religion falls under that, I'm not sure. There are thousands but not many you can just adapt overnight by yourself.

So far my beliefs aren't spiritual or religious. If anything, it's hard to talk about it separate because there isn't anything that I do and say that represents what people would call anything spiritual. So, in other words, it's not too popular in RF threads unless there's the word god attached to it. But nonetheless, I'm just me. I'd probably shift as time goes on but with theism and polytheism (if gods were my shift), I'd be the latter.

 

[Twilight Hue]

I am 100% moving away from atheism, never been an atheists and will never be one, nobody can change that within me.

I said the same exact thing in 2005.

 

[Polymath257]

I believe that humans are (partly) independent intelligences that work together or against each other to produce some effects on this small planet.

I do not believe in a deity.

So I really don't understand the levels you have outlined.

 

[DagonVarunaMitraApolloZan]

Well wherever I might be, there is no movement going on. 

Yes, a lot of people are in one place and stay there, I am too, I have had these beliefs for an extremely long time, I've never shifted down or to the left.

My descent would go like this, a shift down would be going from the belief in singular independent of me sentience to multiple independent of the singular and of me sentiences influencing phenomena and what is generated, going down from there is the belief that I am one such influential sentience, the middle is that its just me, then the other end of the middle is that I am unintelligently colliding and interacting with other forces, then that other forces are unintelligently colliding with each other which is driving me, and at the extreme left is that there is just no sentience whatsoever just random emerges and phenomena popping in and out with no Conscious Living Mind and Sentience Deliberately and Actively and Purposefully and Knowingly Generating it or Participating in it, does that give you a picture of the scale? I started at the far right and went to the far left, or started at the top and went to the bottom.

Well I'm here! I'm sorry, but i can't really relate to the jist of your OP and the options, but that's probably just me.

Thats ok! How about, if you have it available already or can discuss it here, you share how you arrived at your current beliefs, what the move was from and to, what your beliefs seemed to be and how they shifted, the thread is about "Shifts".

 

[DagonVarunaMitraApolloZan]

I am 100% moving away from atheism, never been an atheists and will never be one, nobody can change that within me.

Ok! So since people did not understand what I have written, this would be a shift moving away from the one edge, lets say the left of the spectrum if one images it on a bar, where the furthest left represents atheism and the belief in nothing magical or spiritual and just colliding forces or randomness and no intelligences with powers, and on the far right the various theistic positions concluding in the furthest right which represents singular monist or monotheistic intelligence controlling all things.

So its like a scale of 0 to 1.

 

[Nakosis]

Do you feel you are moving towards Atheism or towards Theism or moving at all in any direction? Are you here to learn? To practice? To fool around? To enjoy?

If you are moving towards or have moved towards Theistic ideas, please let me know the whole story or how you are feeling and dealing with everything now and what seemed to move you towards that.

The same if you are moving ir have moved towards or into atheism.

I am an extreme theist on the spectrum, an extreme atheist would be someone who:

Vote Code 0(Singular True Random Unintelligent Chaos and Circumstance Determinism No Agency)
genuinely does not believe there is any intelligence whatsoever generating or interacting with experience or reality and influencing what emerged and emerges and that nothing whatsoever with any intelligence is responsible for anything generated.

Vote Code 1,2,3(Multiple "Dead" Forces)
In between somewhere before the next point is someone who thinks there are multiple vying forces doing so unconsciously.

Vote Code 4 the X(Self Only 1 and 2)
In the middle would be someone who thinks they themselves are the intelligence responsible for all that they experience and is generated as their experience, on the more atheistic end they mean it more physically and on the more theistic side as they themselves are somehow bringing about everything almost magically.

Vote Code 5 split(Multiple Intelligences with Agency)
in the middle between the last and next is multiple independent intelligences working against or together consciously and with power.

Vote Code 6 a.k.a 7(Singular Intelligence and Singular Agency of The Only Living Power Only)
At the other extreme end is a singular "external" or in other terms even if also internal, not exclusive and not personally controlled singular power generating everything.

Where are you on a spectrum like this, where are you headed or moving at all if you think about it and notice how through your life you may have moved and how gradual the moving has been if at all or rapid and sudden and what the causes were or why you think such has occurred or is occurring.

I was inspired to write this after reading some comments (Deja Vu sensation occurring) which seemed to discuss past or present pondering and was eager to also invite newcomers to join in and discuss what is going on with them and has gone on with them.

Please also discuss if and what you have shifted from and towards in detail, like if you went from Christian to pagan on what or how.

All the various beliefs and philosophies fit onto that spectrum somewhere.

Atheism for me is a movement away from any belief. Not moving towards any particular philosophy.

So moving away from 6 a.k.a 7 but not towards 0.

From a lack of knowledge, I don't think I ought to be moving towards any position. I'm basically leaving my options open until some knowledge I see as reliable comes available.

 

[DagonVarunaMitraApolloZan]

I don't understand what you mean by vote codes (after re-reading). Usually, based on life circumstances etc we tend to shift what we believe, don't believe, etc. A lot of people who are theist had a revelation of some sort. Probably quite a few who are atheist may be the same or never was introduced with the concept of god "as true" to begin with. So, shifting maybe depends on age, where one is in life, how open they are, and do they question their experiences.

Since I don't believe deities exist, there would have to be a huge shift for me to believe in deities-maybe a revealing experience or profound revelation of some sort. If so, I would most definitely fall under polytheism in and of itself. As for which religion falls under that, I'm not sure. There are thousands but not many you can just adapt overnight by yourself.

So far my beliefs aren't spiritual or religious. If anything, it's hard to talk about it separate because there isn't anything that I do and say that represents what people would call anything spiritual. So, in other words, it's not too popular in RF threads unless there's the word god attached to it. But nonetheless, I'm just me. I'd probably shift as time goes on but with theism and polytheism (if gods were my shift), I'd be the latter.

So were you not raised with any religion or how did you arrive at your ideas in the first place and what is it that you imagine "deities" would be, that don't exist but which you would shift to if they somehoe seemed to?

 

[Spirit of Light]

I said the same exact thing in 2005.

Ok! So since people did not understand what I have written, this would be a shift moving away from the one edge, lets say the left of the spectrum if one images it on a bar, where the furthest left represents atheism and the belief in nothing magical or spiritual and just colliding forces or randomness and no intelligences with powers, and on the far right the various theistic positions concluding in the furthest right which represents singular monist or monotheistic intelligence controlling all things.

So its like a scale of 0 to 1.

I am not on the of the edges lett or right, i believe there is a multitude of Gods, Buddhas and Daos so i dont be live there is one God who is the only spiritual being, nor do i belive for a second that atheism is correct either.

 

[DagonVarunaMitraApolloZan]

I don't understand what you mean by vote codes (after re-reading).

Those are just the options of what people are at or moving towards. The weird but also somewhat arbitrary but creatively named and referring to some other themes in my writing titles of the codes are not important, just that the first one is like on a bar, so you can imagine it on the far left of the spectrum as someone who believes in absolutely no spiritual or magical anything, no intelligences, just random collision or whatever, a completely dead and illusory chaos where the illusory part is even our own consciousness and intelligence or freedom, its just deterministic generating random matter that turned out this way and people are driven by nothing and nothing matters or leads anywhere and then you die.

On the opposite end of the spectrum is the belief that there is only One singular intelligence which is not in your control. In the middle between those two extremes is the Solipsistic position that you alone are responsible for your experiences somehow.

In between those are the other things I mentioned.

(0) (1,2,3)(4 X)(5)(6&7)
/___________|___________\

 

[Unveiled Artist]

So were you not raised with any religion or how did you arrive at your ideas in the first place and what is it that you imagine "deities" would be, that don't exist but which you would shift to if they somehoe seemed to?

I moved around a lot and all my schools were not religious oriented. Mostly in and out of the hospital, religion, god, whatever was the last on my mind. I was introduced by religion (rather than the word god) in high school only because my former friend was highly religious Catholic. I liked the Catholic faith so about eight years more without religion and god I prematurely jumped into it. (The concept of gods I had was mythology (no pun intended); so, Paganism was not my thing.)

Anyway. I got the gist after practicing in the sacraments and other religions the human tendency to have a mystic experience is Similar always punctuated by "this can't be described on words" or "only X people in this coven gets it" etc. God is experience.

So, I never had an experience of god apart from religion. So, I never knew god as a mystic personal feeling or action. Likewise, mythology is the only deities I'm familiar with and I never believed they exist. Though I think many Pagans do.

The rest of the ideas was here on RF. I came here years ago about a year after I stopped going to Mass. If I didn't know RF, I would have no concept of god outside what I observe from external points of view.

I think my perspective and bias would be different if I was introduced to god as an idea of its own if it was introduced to me earlier. Thank RF for all the concepts I wouldn't have known ten years back.

 

[DagonVarunaMitraApolloZan]

I said the same exact thing in 2005.

So what is your story from and to? What were you, what did you become? How? What moved you in whatever direction?

 

[DagonVarunaMitraApolloZan]

I believe that humans are (partly) independent intelligences that work together or against each other to produce some effects on this small planet.

I do not believe in a deity.

So I really don't understand the levels you have outlined.

That would be either in between (0) and (4 the X) or (4 the X) and (5) or in between (4 the X) and (6 a.k.a 7)

On the one extreme end of the spectrum, lets say the left, is the belief in deterministic randomness.

Next to it moving more to the right but still on the left, is the belief in various forces that are not intelligent which are working against each other or together like colliding, and may appear to be intelligences but are not, this can include people.

Then in the middle is the "You" stuff, where one believes they themselves are the cause of what they experience and not forces outside themselves.

Then over on the beginning of the right it starts getting less material based and more spiritual and metaphysical so its X a crossover point, and the next area is someone who believes in multiple intelligences which become increasingly abstract and more like a singularity as you move to the extreme right which is a Singular Intelligence which is "Not You" exactly, but beyond you or your control and does not need you but encompasses all things and manifests all experiences in detail and in every nuance, so the exact opposite of the left extreme end of the spectrum where its No intelligence randomly generating all this stuff.

 

[DagonVarunaMitraApolloZan]

Atheism for me is a movement away from any belief. Not moving towards any particular philosophy.

So moving away from 6 a.k.a 7 but not towards 0.

From a lack of knowledge, I don't think I ought to be moving towards any position. I'm basically leaving my options open until some knowledge I see as reliable comes available.

Isn't that Agnosticism? Agnosticism is the belief that one is A (Not) gnostic (Knowing).

Atheism is an affirmative belief, that there are no gods, and which often extends into there being no magic or psychich powers or anything.

In what I listed there are 3 Atheistic stopping points, and three theistic stopping points and one can be a dot anywhere on the spectrum.

You're probably somewhere on there too, since you believe in water for example but don't really have any belief that its actually living. You are probably somewhere on the left end of the spectrum in the Atheistic zones if you're not prone to magical thinking.

The most extreme end of the spectrum is the belief in there being no intelligence or independence at all, just deterministic chains of events caused by no intelligence.

On the extreme opposite end "agency" which is Free Will dissappears againm and you are driven by an Ocassionalist (see wikipedia for that) singular Intelligence and have no true intelligence yourself but only an "artificial" or appearance of an intelligence at best as all your decisions and experiences are generated by this force.

In the middle is the height of "Agency" and "Free Will" and the belief that You or your "Self" somehow in your control or attached to you and considered you is unconsciously or consciously and physically (left) or metaphysically (right) causing everything you experience, "You" therefore are The Only God or Active Being in that position.

In between the Extreme Left and Middle is the position of most Atheistic people where a bunch of different forces are colliding and cooperating variously without their knowledge or intelligence to bring about whatever is.

In between the extreme middle and the extreme right is the belief that there are multiple powerful intelligences at work with free wills each which are increasingly abstract as they get closer to the singular power on the extreme right.

 

[DagonVarunaMitraApolloZan]

I moved around a lot and all my schools were not religious oriented. Mostly in and out of the hospital, religion, god, whatever was the last on my mind. I was introduced by religion (rather than the word god) in high school only because my former friend was highly religious Catholic. I liked the Catholic faith so about eight years more without religion and god I prematurely jumped into it. (The concept of gods I had was mythology (no pun intended); so, Paganism was not my thing.)

Anyway. I got the gist after practicing in the sacraments and other religions the human tendency to have a mystic experience is Similar always punctuated by "this can't be described on words" or "only X people in this coven gets it" etc. God is experience.

So, I never had an experience of god apart from religion. So, I never knew god as a mystic personal feeling or action. Likewise, mythology is the only deities I'm familiar with and I never believed they exist. Though I think many Pagans do.

The rest of the ideas was here on RF. I came here years ago about a year after I stopped going to Mass. If I didn't know RF, I would have no concept of god outside what I observe from external points of view.

I think my perspective and bias would be different if I was introduced to god as an idea of its own if it was introduced to me earlier. Thank RF for all the concepts I wouldn't have known ten years back.

Could you, if you find the time, carefully read all of this without skimming and tell me what you think, either here or by messages or by my email at [email protected] ?

I want to understand how what I write and then describe processes for you.

So are you currently moving in the direction I've described in posts you can read here as the Atheistic end on the extreme left or the Solipsistic Middle or the Theistic end on the extreme right if it was imagined in a bar?

Two Logics One Miracup(s) - Pastebin.com

Anyone else can read that carefully and see if it shifts them wherever they may be currently on the bar I've described, left or right. The position presented there encompasses all the positions potentially but its an extreme right end type.

 

[Secret Chief]

Thats ok! How about, if you have it available already or can discuss it here, you share how you arrived at your current beliefs, what the move was from and to, what your beliefs seemed to be and how they shifted, the thread is about "Shifts".

Sure thing. Will come back later to post.

 

[DagonVarunaMitraApolloZan]

Sure thing. Will come back later to post.

Thank you! I appreciate it a lot! What I really wanted were stories and experiences I like to study and learn from and simulate using my imagination and think about.

If you read all the posts I've made here in this thread so far, they better clarify and explain the design of the bar or spectrum I'm hoping people can begin to imagine and then figure out there past, present, and future points or dots on.

 

[Nakosis]

Isn't that Agnosticism? Agnosticism is the belief that one is A (Not) gnostic (Knowing).

Sure but what does this have to do with God or Theism? I see Agnosticism leads to atheism which in this case means to possess no beliefs about a God.

Atheism is an affirmative belief, that there are no gods, and which often extends into there being no magic or psychich powers or anything.

IMO this idea there are no Gods is antitheism.

In what I listed there are 3 Atheistic stopping points, and three theistic stopping points and one can be a dot anywhere on the spectrum.

You're probably somewhere on there too, since you believe in water for example but don't really have any belief that its actually living. You are probably somewhere on the left end of the spectrum in the Atheistic zones if you're not prone to magical thinking.

The most extreme end of the spectrum is the belief in there being no intelligence or independence at all, just deterministic chains of events caused by no intelligence.

I think your spectrum is in reference to ideas about God. Theism, there is a God to antitheism, there is no God. The other spectrum is spiritualism to materialism. I am towards the materialist end, that's true but I see theism vs antitheism on a separate axis.

On the extreme opposite end "agency" which is Free Will dissappears againm and you are driven by an Ocassionalist (see wikipedia for that) singular Intelligence and have no true intelligence yourself but only an "artificial" or appearance of an intelligence at best as all your decisions and experiences are generated by this force.

In the middle is the height of "Agency" and "Free Will" and the belief that You or your "Self" somehow in your control or attached to you and considered you is unconsciously or consciously and physically (left) or metaphysically (right) causing everything you experience, "You" therefore are The Only God or Active Being in that position.

A lot of references to God. I don't see God as a part of this spiritual to material axis.

In between the Extreme Left and Middle is the position of most Atheistic people where a bunch of different forces are colliding and cooperating variously without their knowledge or intelligence to bring about whatever is.

Spiritual forces? Material forces?

In between the extreme middle and the extreme right is the belief that there are multiple powerful intelligences at work with free wills each which are increasingly abstract as they get closer to the singular power on the extreme right.

I suspect your spectrum may need more than a single axis for folks to place themselves on.