Moving on up!

[Shadow Wolf]

Although Christians and Muslims are still the religious majority in the world, just over 200 years after authors like Percy Bysshe Shelley took bold steps in defending atheism those who have no religious affiliation (this includes atheists, agnostics, and those with spiritual beliefs) now make up the largest group in seven nations, and the unaffiliated are the second-largest group in 65% of countries where Christianity is the majority.
http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tan...each-countrys-second-largest-religious-group/

Religiously unaffiliated people – sometimes called the “nones” – account for 16% of the world’s population, and they make up the largest “religious group” in seven countries and territories. Perhaps more remarkably, they also are the second-largest group in roughly half (48%) of the world’s nations. Indeed, while either Christians or Muslims make up the largest religious group in nine-in-ten nations around the globe, “nones” rank second in size in most of the Americas and Europe, as well as in many countries in sub-Saharan Africa.

Personally, I think this is wonderful news! Although much of the world still lives in accordance to ancient superstitions and books filled with believes and practices that we shun and hate today, it does mean we gradually moving away from the mindset that having no religion is a bad thing, that atheists are evil, agnostics are "fence sitters," and that those who just "believe in something" are just delusional and misguided. More importantly, it means we are moving closer to having something that needlessly divides us and has and is causing bloody wars is falling out of favor.
This may also be a potential indication in my prediction that eventually we are going to realize that our ways are so disconnected from the Bible, that because we don't believe in most of it, because we have criminalized many of the acceptable practices in it, and because we just do not believe, accept, or follow so much of it that we are going to realize there is no longer any point in clinging onto it, and we will move on and form new beliefs that are based on new ideas - new ideas that are acceptable and congruent with contemporary ideals and values and have none of the questionable baggage such as genocide, slavery, and misogyny.

 

[Quintessence]

When one understands religion to be along the lines of "the way of life which informs our day-to-day narratives that bring meaningfulness to our lives, and consequently informs and guides the relationships we have with all things around us," it is difficult to see a decline in that to be a good thing or anything other than an artifact of how groups like PEW go about their demography. Their assessments, while interesting, are often very superficial.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

it is difficult to see a decline in that to be a good thing

It's the abandonment of ancient and archaic laws and dogma that we don't adhere to anymore. And we simply do not need religion to inform us of our daily narratives of the world or to bring meaning to our lives.

 

[MARCELLO]

Before the xmas of 2016,I never experimented a true and real xmas in my life. Religion was something to be ridiculed in my family. But this xmas I chanted and enjoyed it so much. Maybe I needed a change and it did help,I cannot know,who knows either?

 

[Quintessence]

It's the abandonment of ancient and archaic laws and dogma that we don't adhere to anymore.

I think that interpretation is making some assumptions. It's not as if all religion is traditionalist or fundamentalist. There are plenty of religions and sects within religions that are progressive and contemporary.

And we simply do not need religion to inform us of our daily narratives of the world or to bring meaning to our lives.

Well... part of what I was getting at earlier is that whatever system we use to inform those narratives is effectively one's religion, whether it is called that or not. Religions are basically systems for articulating cultural values, and is present whether the systems are given that label or not. Like other major institutions (e.g., education, government), it's intrinsic to all cultures (or so I'm told) regardless of being formally named as such.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

There are plenty of religions and sects within religions that are progressive and contemporary.

That is true. But how long can it really go on before this "do what you want and feels right" in regards to religion is looked upon as absurd? It's a given that all religions can be correct. A "belief in something" is one thing, and I do think it is going to be much more predominate in the future, but beliefs in ancient books wrote by men, religions that believe in things that are blatantly false or condone practices and institutions that are today considered nearly universally illegal and immoral, those are an entirely different thing, and they tend to lack the centralized authority that religion often has.

Religions are basically systems for articulating cultural values, and is present whether the systems are given that label or not.

Religion has also given us honor killings, crusades, infidels, "divine right" to rule, and many other atrocities. Atheist states have also committed atrocities, but the focus is looking at things like the Bible and Quran, and having one group that picks a few of a positive aspects while ignoring the rest (this is what I refer to as being "so far removed/disconnected from their core beliefs), and another group that takes it very literally, which can manifest as groups like the Amish who tend to keep to themselves and take "be not of this world" very seriously, or religious extremists who cause great acts of violence because of what they find in the very same books the other group is reading.
Yes, people are violent, weird, and sometimes just plain dumb over many things that aren't religion, but what I am trying to focus on the things that just don't fly in today's society. The current thread about Lot and how he offered his daughters to be gang raped is a great example. Today, we would never call someone who did such a thing righteous, we would scorn them (and rightfully so), and they would face prison time. Those aren't characteristics we admire today, we are very far removed from anything that could reasonable consider such actions as good, and this is why I think that eventually we, as a society, will give up on the whole religion thing just because we don't actually believe it anymore. People may say they believe that Christ died for them, but most of them seem to not believe he instructed his followers to sell everything they own and give the money to the poor.

 

[LuisDantas]

I think that interpretation is making some assumptions. It's not as if all religion is traditionalist or fundamentalist. There are plenty of religions and sects within religions that are progressive and contemporary.

That is certainly true, but it is a reasonable assumption that many of even most of those who lose interest have been taught more traditionalistic approaches that never quite connected with them in the first place.

Well... part of what I was getting at earlier is that whatever system we use to inform those narratives is effectively one's religion, whether it is called that or not.

I agree. It is dangerous and confusing to simply use the word without any context or clarification.

Religions are basically systems for articulating cultural values, and is present whether the systems are given that label or not. Like other major institutions (e.g., education, government), it's intrinsic to all cultures (or so I'm told) regardless of being formally named as such.

I so agree!

 

[George-ananda]

those who have no religious affiliation (this includes atheists, agnostics, and those with spiritual beliefs) now make up the largest group in seven nations

Seems strange that atheists and Advaita folks are counted together in the same category 'no religious affiliation'. But I guess it depends what the study is intending to look at; the drop in traditional religious affiliations in this case.

 

[Nietzsche]

Before the xmas of 2016,I never experimented a true and real xmas in my life. Religion was something to be ridiculed in my family. But this xmas I chanted and enjoyed it so much. Maybe I needed a change and it did help,I cannot know,who knows either?

Group activity releases endorphins in the brain, so as to encourage further group-activity.

 

[Nietzsche]

Religion has also given us honor killings, crusades, infidels, "divine right" to rule, and many other atrocities. Atheist states have also committed atrocities, but the focus is looking at things like the Bible and Quran, and having one group that picks a few of a positive aspects while ignoring the rest (this is what I refer to as being "so far removed/disconnected from their core beliefs), and another group that takes it very literally, which can manifest as groups like the Amish who tend to keep to themselves and take "be not of this world" very seriously, or religious extremists who cause great acts of violence because of what they find in the very same books the other group is reading.
Yes, people are violent, weird, and sometimes just plain dumb over many things that aren't religion, but what I am trying to focus on the things that just don't fly in today's society. The current thread about Lot and how he offered his daughters to be gang raped is a great example. Today, we would never call someone who did such a thing righteous, we would scorn them (and rightfully so), and they would face prison time. Those aren't characteristics we admire today, we are very far removed from anything that could reasonable consider such actions as good, and this is why I think that eventually we, as a society, will give up on the whole religion thing just because we don't actually believe it anymore. People may say they believe that Christ died for them, but most of them seem to not believe he instructed his followers to sell everything they own and give the money to the poor.

I'm hardly supportive of, you know, really anything. But that isn't really "religion" at fault, it's us. We're kinda terrible, and nothing will change that.

 

[Quintessence]

@Shadow Wolf , it really sounds like your beef is with specific types of religions, not religions as a whole. Would that be correct? I suppose I'm assuming so, because I have a hard time imagining someone being wholesale against religions, considering the existence of things like... well... Buddhism and Unitarian Universalism and progressive Chrsitianity.

 

[Riverwolf]

If something no longer functions in a society, it's eventually discarded via cultural evolution. But unlike in biological evolution, often things that were once discarded are brought back, if they can once again serve a function they once lost that isn't fulfilled by present elements.

This idea of "none" growing so rapidly might actually be pointing to just such a phenomenon. The separation between "religious" and "secular" is as old as pre-Christian Rome, but this division didn't always exist in other cultures, including our own (Ingvaeonic/Ingwine). Effectively, there was no word for "religion" in these languages, and to this day, there are similarly no such words for "religion" in many languages. (Though we often translate certain words to "religion", such as Sanskrit "dharma" or Mandarin "dào", which is wrong; neither can truly be translated into English). When Christianity was spreading in the North, people called it the "new way", contrasting it with the "old way" (forn sidu in Old English; fore side) that they practiced earlier. That was the best they could do, since they lacked any words that meant "religion" in the modern (and Roman) sense.

So the way I see it, this might be more of a reclamation of something lost, rather than moving "forward". I don't believe in the modern myth of "progress", since more often than not, it's mired in cultural colonialism, intellectual elitism, and in the worst cases, blatent ableism. Not surprising, since it's rooted in Roman imperialism and reared by Christianity.

 

[Jumi]

Before the xmas of 2016,I never experimented a true and real xmas in my life. Religion was something to be ridiculed in my family. But this xmas I chanted and enjoyed it so much. Maybe I needed a change and it did help,I cannot know,who knows either?

I think it was good for you and I'm not a theist or Christian.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

@Shadow Wolf , it really sounds like your beef is with specific types of religions, not religions as a whole. Would that be correct? I suppose I'm assuming so, because I have a hard time imagining someone being wholesale against religions, considering the existence of things like... well... Buddhism and Unitarian Universalism and progressive Chrsitianity.

Yes, but that would be an over simplification. Objectively speaking, the Bible and Koran have some very nasty parts in them, and my question is when we will realize that we are so far removed and disconnected from such things that we no longer bother to practice them because we realized that long ago (even before today) we stopped really caring about what they say. I also have an issue with the mentality of "do what you feel is right" in regards to religion because such a thinking is not at all logical. Either the Mayans (or whatever religion) had it right, or they didn't. What such a mentality reveals is it doesn't matter if you are right, if you have the idea of god right, but just that you follow something (this thought may be due because I live in a conservative area, and not believing in at least something is viewed as something bad - so bad that you can't even possibly be a rational or good person).

I'm hardly supportive of, you know, really anything. But that isn't really "religion" at fault, it's us. We're kinda terrible, and nothing will change that.

While that is true, and even non-violent doctrine has been used for some pretty bad things, when it comes to things like religion, we find that what we have are ancient superstitions, or even modern superstitions, that have no basis in reality, belief in things that are simply impossible, and just one more thing that needlessly divides us. And to use a modern example, with Muslim extremists, because they believe in a next-life that is better than this, there is a very real concern as to what extremes they will go to. "Mutually assured destruction" is not applicable to someone with the mindset that sees their own destruction as the end of this chapter and the beginning of one that is so much better.

But, the focus of this thread is that those of us who do not adhere to any sort of religious doctrine are becoming more common. A couple hundred years ago and even in the West the you may have potentially faced anti-blasphemy laws (Thomas Paine himself was jailed over such things), but today we are numerous enough to say we are the second largest group in many nations throughout the globe. This is progress. To me, someone who has to deal with the bull**** of not having religion, it's great news.

 

[Riverwolf]

A couple hundred years ago and even in the West the you may have potentially faced anti-blasphemy laws (Thomas Paine himself was jailed over such things), but today we are numerous enough to say we are the second largest group in many nations throughout the globe. This is progress.

No, it's not progress. It's a return to the way things were before.

Sure, a few hundred years ago we'd all be tried for violating blasphemy laws (in Europe anyway), but a few thousand years ago, nobody would have given an auroch's rear end who we worshiped, or if we even worshiped at all.

 

[Quintessence]

Yes, but that would be an over simplification. Objectively speaking, the Bible and Koran have some very nasty parts in them, and my question is when we will realize that we are so far removed and disconnected from such things that we no longer bother to practice them because we realized that long ago (even before today) we stopped really caring about what they say. I also have an issue with the mentality of "do what you feel is right" in regards to religion because such a thinking is not at all logical. Either the Mayans (or whatever religion) had it right, or they didn't. What such a mentality reveals is it doesn't matter if you are right, if you have the idea of god right, but just that you follow something (this thought may be due because I live in a conservative area, and not believing in at least something is viewed as something bad - so bad that you can't even possibly be a rational or good person).

It's very interesting to get a window into understanding how your experiences shape your perspectives (and better that you seem to be aware of it). Where you react to "do what you feel is right" as a negative because of - could I call it a sheep mentality? - I look at something like that and see an expression of pluralism and tolerance. I didn't grow up in a conservative area, and more importantly, in a multi-religious household that let me just be me. Yeah, kinda spoiled, right?

On the whole, I don't disagree with many of your points about some religions being disconnected from the present. It's one of the reasons Catholicism didn't interest me as a kid. I asked myself "aren't there any modern religions that actually make sense?" Unaware that there were any, I just wholesale abandoned the religion thing for many years. Even now as a contemporary Pagan, I draw much more inspiration from sciences and modern mythology/storytelling than I do from historical stuff.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

The projections I've seen are that the atheist population is going to shrink and that Islam will be the world's dominant religion by mid-century. It's because religious people have more kids, mostly. Christianity is waning in the West, but a lot of Westerners are converting to Islam and rejecting materialistic society.

http://www.cnn.com/2015/04/02/living/pew-study-religion/

 

[lewisnotmiller]

The projections I've seen are that the atheist population is going to shrink and that Islam will be the world's dominant religion by mid-century. It's because religious people have more kids, mostly. Christianity is waning in the West, but a lot of Westerners are converting to Islam and rejecting materialistic society.

http://www.cnn.com/2015/04/02/living/pew-study-religion/

Ironic when you consider some Muslims see us as fornicating and immoral. Well, I won't stand for it. Any hot atheist women out there who like unprotected sex, you know where to leave your details.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

It's very interesting to get a window into understanding how your experiences shape your perspectives (and better that you seem to be aware of it). Where you react to "do what you feel is right" as a negative because of - could I call it a sheep mentality? - I look at something like that and see an expression of pluralism and tolerance. I didn't grow up in a conservative area, and more importantly, in a multi-religious household that let me just be me. Yeah, kinda spoiled, right?

I like that response. It does help me to put things back into perspective. Asides from the religious environment, my sister has been bugging the crap out of me with religion. It normally doesn't bother me. But her desperation for belief, I suppose the best way to describe it is she wants to believe, she wants to have something to follow, perhaps a drug addict looking for the next fix, but I feel the German word sensucht is more appropriate. I've even noticed that I've been posting more anti-religious stuff lately than I normally would. I've had plenty of drug addicts in my family, and my dad is even a recovered alcoholic. But my sister, in terms of religion, is really no different. She wanted the 10 Commandments tattooed on her, and she couldn't name them all, she didn't know that a few of them would have put her to a very violent and agonizing death, she's never read the Bible, she claims that she isn't a Christian because Christians have it all wrong, but she is all into Jesus because of all these dumb *** stupid books she's have been reading that have zero evidence to back them up (it includes the type of fictional stuff than Dan Brown drew upon for his Da Vinci Code books). I really don't care if people are religious. I don't care what people believe (well, sort of, but the fact I'm using parenthesis suggests it's of all those extraneous stuff that is outside the norm), some of my favorite works of art are religious based (such as the Divine Comedy), I even cherished the time I got to spend getting to know some Middle Eastern Muslims while I was in college because it's all the proof I need to know I am on the correct side when I say Islam isn't really the problem, but at the same time my sister's religious addiction has been driving me absolutely ****ing insane. Especially when I started to bring up Eastern religions and philosophy, and she asked "what's their '10 Commandments.'"
Sorry for the rant. I really didn't intend this to come off as anything anti-religious, but rather that those who are not religious, especially in regards to atheists, have come along way in society, and all of us who do not adhere to any religious dogma can stand firm in knowing we are not alone, we are growing in numbers, and, overall, that means there are less people who are likely to dismiss you just because you don't believe in some ancient god of ancient nomads (again, that is probably just because where I live it is not unusual for some public gather to begin with a prayer).

 

[Quintessence]

I'm pleased with the greater acceptance of non-theism too, though distressed at some of the negative manifestations that have come out of it. Seems to me that most of us want basic respect and courtesy for who and what we are - acceptance and understanding, as it were. One thing that is great about RF is it gives us the opportunity to have dialogues we might not ordinarily have in day-to-day life. Even better when those moments of understanding happen.