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Move the Agnostics DIR?

Discussion in 'General Debates' started by Laika, Sep 13, 2017.

?
  1. Yes- and I would use the Agnostics DIR

    2 vote(s)
    12.5%
  2. Yes- this is a good idea

    5 vote(s)
    31.3%
  3. No- things are fine the way they are

    5 vote(s)
    31.3%
  4. Don't know/Not sure

    4 vote(s)
    25.0%
  1. Laika

    Laika Well-Known Member
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    I'd like to propose that the Agnostics DIR is moved out of the Non-theistic/Non-religious DIR and is totally separate from it. Here's a few reasons:
    • In Practice, Agnostics are not non-theists or non-religious. They are simply "undecided" on the matter. They should therefore be in a "neutral" environment rather than in with the atheists.
    • Even though "Agnostic Atheists" blur the distinction between Atheism and Agnosticism, their "lack of belief" is typically based on assuming a "lack of evidence". Strong Agnostics assert the impossibility of knowing whether god exists and Weak Agnostics are undecided. This is not the same thing and given that "revealed theology" will be treated often as an illegitimate path of knowledge as "blind faith" this means atheists can dictate terms of debate. Consequently, Agnostic Atheists are in practice atheists because they have made a decision, whereas Weak Agnostics have not and Strong Agnostics do not believe a decision is possible.
    • An Agnostic DIR is potentially a space where people who "don't know" can ask questions and answer them without the intervention of either Theists or Atheists. As we now have to select which DIR we use before we can post, this means that it is now possible to have a space where people are free to make a genuinely independent decision about which faith to join, or if they do not want to join any at all. In the long-run this may create a more conducive environment for those who are "seeking" to find their religion.
    • As the recent poll shows "Atheist/Agnostic/Irreligious" group make up almost 50% of the respondents to the poll, and therefore likely to represent the active members of the forum. This give them a significant ability to determine the content of the forum and is not necessarily healthy in the long-run. In so far as the forum is a marketplace of ideas, it is within the rights of staff members to promote competition between belief systems to ensure diversity of beliefs as part of RF's culture and protect minority belief systems from the intentional or unintentional power of a larger group to dictate the terms of debate or the culture of the forums.
    I know these threads typically go nowhere, but lets see if this one has mileage.

    Any thoughts?
     
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  2. Revoltingest

    Revoltingest Ignorant Atheist Capitalist Libertarian Gearhead
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    Things are good as they are.
    Moving the Agnostic DIR elsewhere would mean a new section.
    No need to make it more complicated.
     
  3. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

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    I disagree. As Merriam Webster puts it.

    Theism
    "belief in the existence of a god or gods; specifically to be a theist belief in the existence of one God viewed as the creative source of the human race and the world who transcends yet is immanent in the world."
    So the deciding question is, Do agnostics believe in the existence of one God viewed as the creative source of the human race and the world who transcends yet is immanent in the world.? The answer is, No. So they fail to qualify as theists and subsequently merit the label "non-theist."

    As for not being non-religious, again one has to consider what the word "religion" signifies.

    Religion
    the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods.
    "ideas about the relationship between science and religion"
    a particular system of faith and worship.​

    Think this describes the agnostic? It doesn't; therefore, they don't qualify as " not. . . non-religious," or "religious."

    In any case, as a DIR the Agnostic forum already protects its members from intrusions by either theists or atheists.

    .
     
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  4. columbus

    columbus Conservative Catholic from Hell

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    As an agnostic deist,
    I see the point to DIRs as protection for obviously wrong beliefs and concepts. So, I wouldn't vote for a separate agnostic DIR, because we don't need one.
    Bring it on believers!*
    Tom
    *Both atheistic and theistic. ;)
     
  5. Rival

    Rival Noachide Fundamentalist Pro-Semite
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    And all the resident Agnostics answered, "Don't know/Not sure."
     
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  6. SalixIncendium

    SalixIncendium Resident Hermit
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    My opinion: Change the title of the sub-forum to Non-Theistic/Non-Religious/Agnostic Beliefs DIR and be done with it.
     
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  7. Laika

    Laika Well-Known Member
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    I would have thought that Agnosticism was not simply a "negative" of theism or religion and was much more ambiguous and open position for the exploration of religious and non-religious beliefs but that is simply my view. I'm thinking more of a weak atheist (undecided) view but am I right in thinking you are a strong agnostic (knowledge of god is impossible)? Is there actually much difference between those views?

    However, as an Agnostic, you're view ultimately takes precedence over mine as someone who uses the Agnostic DIR. And you're right that in principle the Agnostic DIR should already be protected from Atheists.

    It's good to have you back Rival. :D
     
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  8. beenherebeforeagain

    beenherebeforeagain Rogue Animist
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    Strong agnostic here. I hate being labeled an "atheist agnostic" or whatever. I find the reasoning behind the label ridiculous...end of editorial statement....

    I selected the don't know/not sure option because I wasn't really aware of any problems in posting as an agnostic--except for in the past having gotten into arguments about whether or not I'm a strong or weak, and/or theistic or atheistic agnostic. I learned sometime ago not to bother with such discussions.

    Frankly, at this point, I can't think of anything I'd want to discuss/debate concerning agnosticism that couldn't or wouldn't be appropriate for the existing forums.
     
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  9. Laika

    Laika Well-Known Member
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    So basically, what you're saying is this is a terrible idea because it's really divisive and brings up the often arbitrary nature of the distinctions between agnostics, atheists and everything in between up to the surface?

    If the answer is "yes", coming from an agnostic I think that makes this idea pretty stone cold dead.
     
  10. Rival

    Rival Noachide Fundamentalist Pro-Semite
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    Yeh but isn't that just RF tho.
     
  11. columbus

    columbus Conservative Catholic from Hell

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    Isn't that the point to RF?
    Tom
     
  12. Laika

    Laika Well-Known Member
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    Yeah. I wish it wasn't though and we could have deeper discussions than threads devolving into "define this". Its so depressing and futile.
     
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  13. Quintessence

    Quintessence Tale Weaver
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    Yes and no. Anyone who is an agnostic theist or an agnostic atheist is welcome to use the Agnostic DIR or the parent forum. Similarly, someone who identifies as an atheist but is also religious is welcome to use the Atheism DIR or the parent forum. It'd be expected that those with such identities conform to the spirit of the area in which they are posting, but we don't intend to exclude people who are, say, agnostic Pagans from discussing their experiences as an agnostic with other agnostics in the Agnostic DIR (or similar for an atheistic Pagan). Just to clarify. :D
     
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  14. beenherebeforeagain

    beenherebeforeagain Rogue Animist
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    Uh...No?:confused:

    Just because I don't see a burning need for it doesn't mean that others don't see it, and need it, and that it wouldn't actually be a good idea...:cool:
     
  15. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
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    Well stated and good points IMHO.

    Agnosticism and atheism are entirely different. An agnostic may lean towards any established belief system, theist or non theist or simply not be that interested in the discussion at all. That is quite different from having decided on atheism or any other belief system.
     
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  16. idav

    idav Being
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    That poll is skewed that way to not allow a spread of a very diverse group called agnostics. What that poll is really saying, 50 percent religious and 50 percent irreligious, while irreligious and agnostic don't exclude theism.
     
  17. Epic Beard Man

    Epic Beard Man Bearded Philosopher

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    LOL I did!
     
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  18. Willamena

    Willamena Just be there, doing that
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    It's a good idea.
     
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  19. columbus

    columbus Conservative Catholic from Hell

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    Let me rephrase my snarky post.
    Do agnostics have a problem just posting in the nontheist DIR?
    I understand that Hindus don't want Abrahamic religionists butting in to their discussions of their own thing. Etc etc.
    But frankly, I don't see what agnostics have to talk about that differs noticeably from other nontheists. It seems difficult to even figure out where a line might be.
    Is this a solution looking for a problem, or is there something I am missing?
    Tom
     
  20. Laika

    Laika Well-Known Member
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    This is an idea I suggested maybe a year or two ago and got a half decent reception as a post in another thread. The timing is mainly do with the poll as it would now make sense to see if the differences amongst "non-theists" are actually significant enough to merit changing things around. that's what you're missing.

    Its the best information I've got. Even if you split up that option, its still a lot of atheists/agnostics/irreligious people. I was under the impression that group might be in the top 3 with Christians and Muslims, so maybe I'd expect that group to have a 20-30% share. Its a little concerning that its nearly 50%.
     
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