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Mother of NYC heiress paid 'deprogrammer' big bucks after daughter 'brainwashed' by college's woke a

fantome profane

Anti-Woke = Anti-Justice
Premium Member
Interesting reactions in this thread. I think it's at least possible that schools can develop unhealthy cultures. Take the feminist perspective and particulars out for a moment, and leave it there as a general statement. Does anyone disagree with that?

If yes, I'd be interested in why/how. If not, then it would seem at least possible for a school to become toxic to dissenting and non-mainstream views. That's unhealthy, in my opinion.

Now, has that happened with this school? No idea, really. Is this person's perspective valid, transparent and an honest representation of their experience? I don't know. She has 'flipped' back to her apparently original conservatism, which strikes me as strange step to take.
(My general thought being that 'you can never go back')

So, if we're talking specifics, this whole thing strikes me as 'Who knows?'

If we're talking generically, though, the topic is a little more interesting. What should education facilities 'stand for' politically? What does a healthy student culture look like? To what level are schools responsible for that culture?
Yes educational facilities can have unhealthy cultures, and yes sometimes people can be overly affected. But I don’t believe this is the equivalent of being in a cult, and paying 300 dollars a day for a “deprogrammer” is absurd.

When students go of to university they are often exposed to a wider range of idea and concepts than they had previously been exposed to, and have more freedom than they had before. That is the opposite of a cult.

Steven Hassan's BITE Model of Authoritarian Control
 

SomeRandom

Still learning to be wise
Staff member
Premium Member
I'm still intrigued by the idea of a "deprogrammer" to deprogram someone from "woke" back to conservative. What does that look like? How does it work? Are they locked in a room where they listen to 16 hours of Rush Limbaugh tapes all day?
Ironically I think that would send me flying in the opposite direction lol
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
Interesting reactions in this thread. I think it's at least possible that schools can develop unhealthy cultures. Take the feminist perspective and particulars out for a moment, and leave it there as a general statement. Does anyone disagree with that?

If yes, I'd be interested in why/how. If not, then it would seem at least possible for a school to become toxic to dissenting and non-mainstream views. That's unhealthy, in my opinion.

Now, has that happened with this school? No idea, really. Is this person's perspective valid, transparent and an honest representation of their experience? I don't know. She has 'flipped' back to her apparently original conservatism, which strikes me as strange step to take.
(My general thought being that 'you can never go back')

So, if we're talking specifics, this whole thing strikes me as 'Who knows?'

If we're talking generically, though, the topic is a little more interesting. What should education facilities 'stand for' politically? What does a healthy student culture look like? To what level are schools responsible for that culture?
It just sounds so cliche. She saw everyone equal but now all white men are guilty, oppression is everywhere, the patriarchy made her not get along with her mom, it sounds like someone narrating the RW talking points about Critical Race Theory in her personal life. She was innocent and pure but that liberal education ruined her so much it was detrimental for the relationship with her mother. That reads like centuries of American Conservative grievances about anything more than the absolute barebones minimal education.
And no where are her original views stated. Maybe she was actually a ***** who just thought she was a good person and she learned she actually isn't? What if it's her mom who's wrong for wanting her to believe anti-social ideologies?
 

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
Yes educational facilities can have unhealthy cultures, and yes sometimes people can be overly affected. But I don’t believe this is the equivalent of being in a cult, and paying 300 dollars a day for a “deprogrammer” is absurd.

Let me be clear...'deprogramming' sounds like an attempt to brainwash someone back in the original direction, and nothing I'm reading in the admittedly limited info makes me suspect that's not the case. That is every bit as bad/harmful as the original 'brainwashing' (if we can just accept that term for ease of making my point).

The goal of undoing brainwashing actually shouldn't be to reinstate original views, but instead to promote freedom of thought and critical evaluation of ideas. My possibly cryptic comment about 'never going back' really alludes to that. The 'brainwashed' person would never just go back to their pre-washed state. They are forever changed, as we all are by formative experiences.

$300 a day to cause active harm to your own kid seems ridiculous. I wouldn't do this to my kids for $0. Again, assuming 'deprogramming' is being used in the sense I assume.


When students go of to university they are often exposed to a wider range of idea and concepts than they had previously been exposed to, and have more freedom than they had before. That is the opposite of a cult.

Steven Hassan's BITE Model of Authoritarian Control

Often? Sure.
But that would depend on a few factors, including what their backgrounds included, right?

My point isn't 'Universities are brainwashing institutions.'

My point is that Universities are trending in the wrong direction in terms of supporting the free flow of ideas and transformative discourse. It's a generic statement that would apply to different levels in different contexts, but that's my belief.

If we believe polarisation is bad...which I do...then the centre right has a vital role to play in allowing broad discussion and debate on political issues.

Then again, I also largely (but not totally) see trigger warnings as unhelpful, safe spaces as unhelpful, etc...
Whilst these things are clearly done with good intentions, their long term impact doesn't seem healthy at a macro level to me.
 

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
It just sounds so cliche. She saw everyone equal but now all white men are guilty, oppression is everywhere, the patriarchy made her not get along with her mom, it sounds like someone narrating the RW talking points about Critical Race Theory in her personal life. She was innocent and pure but that liberal education ruined her so much it was detrimental for the relationship with her mother. That reads like centuries of American Conservative grievances about anything more than the absolute barebones minimal education.
And no where are her original views stated. Maybe she was actually a ***** who just thought she was a good person and she learned she actually isn't? What if it's her mom who's wrong for wanting her to believe anti-social ideologies?

It does sound cliche, and I wouldn't waste time on the specifics since it's impossible to verify. But there are reasons to believe students feel less free to openly express political views. I don't see that as positive in universities.

Some of this is more societal in general, but perhaps some is related to academic environments. Some academic environments, I would think.
 

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member

Sorry, I forgot to more fully comment about the above.
I'm more familiar with Festinger's work in this area, mentioned in the attached doc. I don't have formal psych training of any kind, but it was my major back in the Dark Ages (93-96) and social psychology and related topics was a decent size part of that.

So...no, I don't see Universities as cult-like in any sense. I do think they can normalise a more Leftist position than is commonly held in wider society, and for the most part I think that is normal, and even healthy.

I think it's really the way in which dissenting voices are treated as bad, or anti-social, or in other prejorative terms that I find harmful. Uni should challenge all views, not move everyone to a comfortably Left view of the world. And challenging all beliefs outside 'The Truth' but not challenging the truth itself would have a natural consequence (at the macro level) of mainlining a particular set of beliefs, and making them more difficult to challenge than other beliefs.

I don't see that as healthy.
 

Wildswanderer

Veteran Member
Mother of NYC heiress paid 'deprogrammer' big bucks after daughter 'brainwashed' by college's woke agenda (msn.com)

I'm not sure what to make of this one.



I didn't even know there were "deprogrammers" to deprogram people brainwashed by the woke agenda. $300 a day? As Jeff Spicoli would say "Righteous bucks."





In addition to the deprogrammer, she enlisted the help from her daughter's former tennis coach. It "might take seven years before Annabella would revert to her old ways of thinking."





Now, she's fundraising for PragerU?

I almost thought this was some kind of parody story, but I guess it's real, at least as far as anything is real. But this whole idea of a "deprogrammer"? I've heard of deprogrammers for people who have been caught up in cults, and I've heard horror stories in relation to that.

I'm not sure if we're getting an accurate glimpse of what goes on at Mount Holyoke.

Thoughts?
No difference between that and a life coach.
 

SomeRandom

Still learning to be wise
Staff member
Premium Member
Me too. But I suspect the figure in the OP is somewhat suggestible (assuming they are real and as presented). We might just be ornery.
Lol Perhaps that’s true

That said I’ve known some folks who were otherwise suggestible make some surprising stands every so often
 

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
Lol Perhaps that’s true

That said I’ve known some folks who were otherwise suggestible make some surprising stands every so often

People get surprised by some of the things I'm intractable on if they don't know me. I'm very easy going and laid back on many things.
Then they'll hit a pushbutton issue, and I'm pretty low key, but VERY firm and direct.

All seems consistent to me, but some people assume what I'm always like based on what I'm normally like.
 

SomeRandom

Still learning to be wise
Staff member
Premium Member
People get surprised by some of the things I'm intractable on if they don't know me. I'm very easy going and laid back on many things.
Then they'll hit a pushbutton issue, and I'm pretty low key, but VERY firm and direct.

All seems consistent to me, but some people assume what I'm always like based on what I'm normally like.

Well I suppose we all have our own lines in the sand

But people can change too.
I know many current “allies” who were once staunch homophobes. Some were I guess “conditioned” if you like into such beliefs originally.

That said, such changes usually involved their loved one’s being negatively affected by such attitudes eventually
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Mother of NYC heiress paid 'deprogrammer' big bucks after daughter 'brainwashed' by college's woke agenda (msn.com)

I'm not sure what to make of this one.



I didn't even know there were "deprogrammers" to deprogram people brainwashed by the woke agenda. $300 a day? As Jeff Spicoli would say "Righteous bucks."





In addition to the deprogrammer, she enlisted the help from her daughter's former tennis coach. It "might take seven years before Annabella would revert to her old ways of thinking."





Now, she's fundraising for PragerU?

I almost thought this was some kind of parody story, but I guess it's real, at least as far as anything is real. But this whole idea of a "deprogrammer"? I've heard of deprogrammers for people who have been caught up in cults, and I've heard horror stories in relation to that.

I'm not sure if we're getting an accurate glimpse of what goes on at Mount Holyoke.

Thoughts?
I think the college should countersue for defamation and libel against this family for saying such absurd nonsense.
 

Heyo

Veteran Member
If we're talking generically, though, the topic is a little more interesting. What should education facilities 'stand for' politically? What does a healthy student culture look like? To what level are schools responsible for that culture?
Schools should be politically neutral. A healthy student culture should be sceptic about the teachings and society in general. If everything is OK, society doesn't have to fear scepticism as the students will find out by themselves.
 

Heyo

Veteran Member
I'm still intrigued by the idea of a "deprogrammer" to deprogram someone from "woke" back to conservative. What does that look like? How does it work? Are they locked in a room where they listen to 16 hours of Rush Limbaugh tapes all day?
Let's go shopping! See, the fact that you can is because of the way society is structured.

It's easy to convince an upper class girl of conservative values. It's what fuels her life style. It's her "natural" view. It is hard to convince her otherwise. Props to the school if they really did, if only for a time.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
...

Then again, I also largely (but not totally) see trigger warnings as unhelpful, safe spaces as unhelpful, etc...
Whilst these things are clearly done with good intentions, their long term impact doesn't seem healthy at a macro level to me.

Okay, I can answer that.
Now remember this. This is neither true nor false. I am playing with different cognitive/mental/social models of good and bad.

There are several factors.
The first one is the doxa of a common folk belief, namely that other people are bad, think/have bad beliefs and do bad behavior.
Read Lawrence Kohlberg's cognitive model of morality as related to morality.

So here is what can happen as per healthy versus unhealthy.
And I will use myself.
I have an unreflected model of good/bad and I will make it simple. Poor people are bad, because in the end they are lazy and it is their own fault, because they don't pull themselves together.
Now I change sub-culture and replaces it with another model. Poor people are always repressed as the only factor and if the evil, rich people were removed, all our problems would be gone.

Both those models are unhealthy, because they are over-reductive or cases of greedy reductionism, likely a case of special pleading and likely involves the nirvana fallacy.

So what is it, that is the ideal of education? Well, I will use myself as an example. I am supposed to have a lot of theories/models/tools for any context, for which I as a former civil servant in an auxiliary role as a "fixer" in an education institution for the "opposite" of the "bright" students had to know the basics for the law as relevant, the formal side of education, the social side of education, the psychology of learning and a **** load of other theories/models for which to account for the following.
What relevant macro factors are at play for the objective, the intersubjective and the individual subjective?
What local culture/institutional factors are at play for the same 3 factors?
What is at the micro level the factors as for me and the other human/humans for the same 3 factors.
What is that for the words for factors of time and other physical resources at play, the social factors of authority, privilege, norms as both formal and informal, power relations as both equal and asymmetrical?
What is both in me and the other human/humans the actual abilities as formal intelligence, social intelligence and the relevant schemata?

That is the ideal of education for a fixer like me. And here is the conditioning of someone like me for the ideal of being a local fixer, i.e. a cog in the machinery in the world in a local culture as a local fixer.
For any sufficiently complex plan and that is the human condition at certain *UBAR moments, the plan breaks down as it get in contact with the rest of reality, for which if I am involved as a "fixer/grunt in both military or civilian sense", I had the duty if I survived and was still functional to take stock of the local situation and act.

There is even more to being a fixer, but here it is for trigger words, safe zones and culture and to much education. ;)
In culture if not in too much stress, that culture is a safe zone for the most of the time for most of the normal people. I.e. they are sufficiently adapted for nature and nurture to function without being triggered for their norms.
So here it is for the normal versus my kind. Some of them trigger me sometimes because in effect they are normal and I am not for which I am irrelevant and I am not allowed to unmask and challenge their safe zone of normal.
But they are allowed to trigger me, because I am not normal and I am not allowed to have a safe zone, because I am not relevant as not normal.

Yeah, that is the joke of safe zones for a non-normal like me. Some people as normal don't know that they are lucky in that they are in their safe zone, but they will point out that I am not allowed to challenge that, because they are normal and I am not.
The joke is that they have no evidence for that with objective reason, logic and evidence, but I am not supposed to trigger them and challenge their safe zone of normal.

And here is the joke for education. Since I am a bright student I have learned to learn on my own, because that is what bright students do.
I always check the books/Internet for relevant academic explanation and in general I am bright enough that I get the patterns of the local part of reality.
My biggest disorder is that I seek patterns for regular and variations, for which normal people adapt to them and function good enough.

So again for your words.
"Then again, I also largely (but not totally) see trigger warnings as unhelpful, safe spaces as unhelpful, etc...
Whilst these things are clearly done with good intentions, their long term impact doesn't seem healthy at a macro level to me."

Well, it depends if that safe zone is healthy or not, but that depends on the educational understanding of normal. And that applies to all of us, including you and I.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
I think the college should countersue for defamation and libel against this family for saying such absurd nonsense.

It seems that they reached out to Mount Holyoke for comment, but apparently they had no comment. I would have been interested in hearing their side.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
There are no "leftist" or "rightist" cults. Cults are all about control, not whatever ideology they are spewing. The ideology is just the mask they use to hide the control.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Let's go shopping! See, the fact that you can is because of the way society is structured.

It's easy to convince an upper class girl of conservative values. It's what fuels her life style. It's her "natural" view. It is hard to convince her otherwise. Props to the school if they really did, if only for a time.

Mount Holyoke is one of the "Seven Sisters," associated with the elitist Ivy League schools. Another one is Wellesley College, where Hillary Clinton went to school, and she turned out to be a conservative capitalist.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
There are no "leftist" or "rightist" cults. Cults are all about control, not whatever ideology they are spewing. The ideology is just the mask they use to hide the control.

Yeah, the trick is that the left/right line is that, but also a circle of power/control between flat, dispersed control versus totally top down in that the left and right stops being that and ends in totally top down.
 
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