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Most people follow Paul not Christ

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by wizanda, Oct 20, 2004.

  1. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    Has anybody else noticed how much Saul/Paul contradicts Christ and turned the word faith into religious belief



    I have a lot of the scriptures in concern on my site and with out copying and pasting them all



    I will try and explain some of it:



    Christ came to set us free he was against the church and the way that the church cared more about profit, then love or wisdom



    He asked that we remember him for sharing and through life as god is the lord of the living



    After his death there were almost 5000 people living together as one, selling all they owned and putting it into the community.



    Until Saul/Paul came along lied about Stephen and then had him killed



    Christ said his disciples should drink just water, Paul made communion



    He asked us to worship god, yet Paul added the confusion that makes people worship Christ as god



    Christ said if there is sinners embrace them so that they might see through your ways how to be good



    Paul told us to push out sinners and not to have anything to do with them



    Christ said God would provide all we needed, which is true and if we lived more in touch with nature as Christ did then all would be free.



    Where as Paul went back to work while he preached and said if you don’t work you don’t eat



    Fair enough if there is someone lazy who does nothing whilst the rest work this is unfair



    Yet if we lived as Christ had said we would work and live as a community and all do our fair share to fetch in the food and offer what talents we have



    The way god intended, not the way the roman government wanted us to pay our taxes just to live.



    Christ said not to judge and even he didn’t, yet Paul told us the spiritual can judge and should not be judged by anyone



    Christ said call no man your teacher or father other then God, yet Paul told us he is the teacher or Christ is and that he had begotten us in Christ



    This is just the start of it and there is a load more. If you question that the bible is infallible you have to remember that it was rearranged by an x-pagan and the roman church



    Yet god doesn’t make mistakes this is why I feel that the vision Daniel refers to this



    It also was made a proverb in Samuel is Saul among the prophets, a proverb meaning it stands for all off time



    Christ also warned us against the Pharisees and that someone would come after him and change what he had said



    Yet as what had been said by Paul was supposed to convince people into the church many haven’t noticed



    I could add loads to this yet scriptures do it far better and let Paul condemn him self with his own words.
     
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  2. Michelle

    Michelle We are all related

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    I agree, there are many conservative Christians that seemingly worship Paul. In another thread I used the term , Paul the Son of God to try and make a point.

    Here is Paul elevating himself in an effort to get the Corinthian christians to believe in him and what he taught.
     
  3. Scott1

    Scott1 Well-Known Member

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    Hello and welcome Wizanda.

    You seem to be forgetting something: Christ chose Paul.

    Without Paul, our faith would still be a small sect of the Jewish faith. Paul opened up (by the power of the Holy Spirit) the faith to Gentiles.

    Without Paul, Christianity would be reserved for those like me: Circumsized Jews.

    Just some food for thought.

    Peace be with you,
    Scott
     
  4. Green Gaia

    Green Gaia Veteran Member

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    To the outsider however, who is studying Christianity from an anthropological or historical viewpoint, it does seem Paul hijacks the religion and makes it into something Jesus did not teach about.
     
  5. Scott1

    Scott1 Well-Known Member

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    I can see your point.... but I can't imagine one could read the Bible even using that viewpoint and not get the message that Paul's mission and teachings were not his own, but that of God/Christ/Holy Spirit. He says so on a number of writings.

    Peace,
    Scott
     
  6. Green Gaia

    Green Gaia Veteran Member

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    I suppose that depends on if the person reading the Bible believes it to be divinly inspired or not. I can most definitely read it from a purely historical and literature viewpoint. It's quite interestsing.
     
  7. Scott1

    Scott1 Well-Known Member

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    What I mean is, that even if you view it as not divinly inspired, you still have to follow along with the basic premise of the text. To read the Lord of the Rings does not mean you have to believe in Hobits, but it means you still have to make the attempt to follow along with the magic and what the author is trying to convey.
     
  8. Michelle

    Michelle We are all related

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    When and where are you coming to this comclusion?
     
  9. Scott1

    Scott1 Well-Known Member

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    I am sorry Michelle, I was assuming that you knew the Bible:

    Acts 9

    15But the Lord said to Ananias, "Go! This man (Saul of Tarsus/Paul) is my chosen instrument to carry my name before the Gentiles and their kings and before the people of Israel. 16I will show him how much he must suffer for my name."
    17Then Ananias went to the house and entered it. Placing his hands on Saul, he said, "Brother Saul, the Lord--Jesus, who appeared to you on the road as you were coming here--has sent me so that you may see again and be filled with the Holy Spirit." 18Immediately, something like scales fell from Saul's eyes, and he could see again. He got up and was baptized, 19and after taking some food, he regained his strength.
     
  10. Michelle

    Michelle We are all related

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    Well who was the author of acts?
     
  11. Scott1

    Scott1 Well-Known Member

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    If you believe the Bible is the Word of God, then your question is answered.

    If you don't believe, your question is off target.

    The topic of this thread is the influence of Paul on Christianity, not the history or authenticity of the Book of Acts or the Bible.

    Peace,
    Scott
     
  12. Michelle

    Michelle We are all related

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    But the point I am making is you cannot show me where Christ named Paul as his spokeman. The author of Acts knew Paul and that is obvious

    .
    But the fact that the author knew Paul does not give his book any more authority as being the word of God.
     
  13. Scott1

    Scott1 Well-Known Member

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    Well, my point again is that you are way off...... the topic at hand is Paul's influence on Christianity.

    Wizanda's post asks specific questions, based on the Bible, that, in his or her opinion, prove that Paul distorted the faith.

    The question is presupposed by faith in the Bible.... or else Wizanda would not use the Bible to show "proof" that his/her assumption is correct.

    If you would like to start a new thread about the author of Acts, please do so.

    Peace,
    Scott
     
  14. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    Thank you for having my conversation twice and not telling me
    I posted this in a diffrent section? now christ did choose saul, the reason being is saul was persercuting christians he had stephen killed. This is the same man paul for those who dont know the bible. Basicly Paul didnt just change christianity he made it what it is today. Christ came to show us oneness. Heaven is oneness!! I have died and been to heaven and this is what i saw. Yet what paul preachs is far from oneness. He told people to push out sinners, he reitterated most of what christ said, maybe he didnt neceraly mean to and thought he was doing the best thing, yet This is why the world is in the mess it is in today.
     
  15. Ronald

    Ronald Well-Known Member

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    Paul followed Yeshua in all he did. People and the NT Scribes/translaters change what Paul said to what they want him to say.1Co 4:16 I urge you, then, be imitators of me.
    1Co 11:1 Be imitators of me, as I am of Christ.
    Sha'ul was Jew, a Rabbi, a Pharisee and studied at the feet of Gammalel, a Hebrew of Hebrews. He remained a practicing Hebrew til he died. Years after Yeshua died and was resurrected, Paul is in the Temple doing sacrifices, and Paul is not a hypocrite so he did not do away with sacrifices, the destruction of the Temple stopped sacrifices. Will be reinstituted in the Messianic Kingdom.
    Zec.14:16 ¶ And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
    So when you get the straight word of Paul "be ye imitators of me, as I am of Christ." ;)
     
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  16. true blood

    true blood Active Member

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    I'm not pursuaded that Saul/Paul contradicts Christ. And if anyone spawned "religious belief" it is those which Paul says who "turn away eyes from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables." The immediate consequence of "turning away from the truth" is the loss of the truth, for one, many erroneous doctrines, men establishing their own ecclesiastical bodies and sects...

    Basicly the Saul/Paul issue arives from the lack of knowledge of the great mystery. I Peter 1:10:"Of which salvation the prophets have inquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace unto you." The Old Testament prophets saw a period of a time element between the sufferings of Christ and the glory that should follow and they searched diligently but their efforts were fruitless as that time period was known only to God Himself. The prophets could not find what was to happen for they sought the period of the great mystery. Even the angels did not know the duration of the time period. All over in the scripture it was spoken of being "hid in God", "hid from ages and from generations" "Kept secret since the world began", "never made known in other ages". Not a single word was written or heard of this great mystery until it was revealed in detail to the Apostle Paul Ephesians 3:2-9, Colossians 1:24-27, Romans 16:25, 26 other scripture further explains the mystery, why it was hid.
     
  17. seraphimfire

    seraphimfire Member

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    I am of Paul, or some are of Apollos, some are of Silas etc etc etc! There were many factions in the Fellowships of Christ in those days just as there are today! Paul was chosen to be a chief apostle(sent to plant seeds of the kingdom) to the nations and he planted seeds of truth about the Lord Jesus Christ that have seemed to bring forth a harvest, in these last days of the past millenium, of spiritual and natural thoughts! Over the last 2000 years the wheat and the tares have grown tall! Our Sovereign God has allowed all this to fulfill prophesy and the letter of the Word!
    Paul was chosen to do many things I was not aware of until now! However there is a new day dawning on this world and old things will be done away with and a new thing will arise out of the ashes of all that you see that calls itself the"church"!
    The form and structure was a negative thing for 2000 years but it will change!
    "Pauline Doctrine" as it is called will be done away with and the truth of what you all have read in the words of Jesus/Yashua will be an absolute reality!

    Peace to you all
     
  18. Bdkimmel61

    Bdkimmel61 Member

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    AFter reading your letter I felt concern that perhaps there are all to many people who follow "A" religion do so without understanding.

    My first concern is that you make an indictment, "Saul/Paul contradicts Christ and turned the word faith into religious belief" but you do not supply the example of Paul's error. I have studied Paul (I do not follow Paul I follow Christ) and have found no such contradiction of Christ's words and teachings. Have you considered that possibly it is you that is in error.


    I would be most happy to listen AND share with you. Perhaps it would be beneficial for the both of us.That is of course if you are open to other thoughts.
     
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  19. Bdkimmel61

    Bdkimmel61 Member

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    Michelle I am wondering if you are reading something into/or missing something in the life of Paul. Your statement, "you cannot show me where Christ named Paul as HIS spokesperson indicates that you have missed

    Paul's Conversion (A.D. 35) Three accounts tell of Paul's Damascus Road experience: Acts 9:3-19; 22:6-21; 26:13-23. The variations in details are accounted for by recognizing that each story is told to a different audience on a different occasion. Paul was traveling to Damascus to arrest Jewish people who had accepted Jesus as the Messiah. This was legally possible since city governments were known to permit the Jewish sector of the city a reasonable degree of self-government. The journey would take at least a week using donkeys or mules to ride and carry provisions. See Damascus; Messiah.
    As Paul neared Damascus, a startling light forced him to the ground. The voice asked: "Why persecutest thou me," and identified the speaker as Jesus--the very one whom Stephen had seen at the right hand of God when Paul witnessed Stephen's stoning. Paul was struck blind and was led into the city. Ananias met Paul and told him that he had been chosen by God as a messenger for the Gentiles (9:17). After Paul received his sight, like other believers before him, he was baptized.
    In this conversion experience, Paul accepted the claims of Jesus and the church, the very thing he was seeking to destroy. Jesus was truly the Messiah and took priority over the Temple and the law. The experience was also Paul's call to carry the gospel to the Gentile world (9:15; 22:21).
    Both his conversion and call are reflected in Paul's letters. He wrote that Jesus had appeared to him (1 Cor. 15:8-10; 9:1); the gospel Paul preached had come by revelation (Gal. 1:12); he had been called by God (Gal. 1:1; Eph. 3:2-12). His conversion brought a complete change in the inner controlling power of his life. It was like dying and receiving a new life (Gal. 2:20) or being created anew (2 Cor. 5:17-20). This experience of radical change and call to the Gentiles provided the motivation to travel throughout the Roman world. See Conversion.

    I realize that JESUS did not say "I call Paul" but to the extent that you are apparently demanding a statement by Christ to that effect, one could likewise say that after the crucifixion of JESUS, HE NEVER SAID thay anyone one of us has been called.

    Paul spent the entire balance of his life sharing the Teachings of JESUS and never claimed ownership of the words.Paul gave all glory to GOD/JESUS/HOLYSPIRIT.

    In life we learn that it is by faith that we believe and that according to HIS gift.

    I would suggest that you are looking for proof of something. I would also suggest that you look inward for that which you are seeking.Not to say that you or any of us is GOD but that the knowledge of JESUS comes from within and ALL who know HIM know HIS VOICE.
     
  20. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    This is why I moaned that my conversation is running twice
    In the other thread I have included some of the scriptures, yet if you truley wish to see why i say such things i have all the scriptures on my site.
    They are laid out where Saul contridicts Yeshua and what the bible says about a fake prophet and other things God has shown me.
    What you say about Saul spreading the word is true yet christ pointed us to God Saul pointed us to Christ?
     
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