Most nonbelievers are sincere in their disbelief

[The Transcended Omniverse]

Edit: God doesn't seem all that frantic to save these nonbelievers. He just simply throws some things out there such as the bible and expects people to believe it. He clearly does not care and love his human creations all that much if he isn't frantic to save them by constantly sending them irrefutable signs in their daily lives. But if God does have a loving attitude despite his apparent immoral and uncaring nature, then that would be an absurd, asinine, and daft God. No morally sane and righteous parent would say to their child:

"I have thrown some things out there in the hopes that you will believe in me and come to me. I am not frantic to save you and you will end up in hell forever if you are not convinced. But don't worry, even though I am not frantic to save you, I still love and care about you even though you are highly likely to end up in hell since there are many nonbelievers out there sincere in their disbelief. The fact that these sincere nonbelievers would end up in hell and the fact that I am not frantic to do all I can to save them doesn't matter. I am still an all loving, all just, and morally righteous God."

Many Christians and other religious believers would think nonbelievers are not genuine in their disbelief in a God. They would think that they know he is real, but choose to reject and deny him out of rebellion. They would assume that these nonbelievers prefer to burn forever in a lake of fire than to serve and obey a God. Let me put it into a clear perspective for you how absurd this assumption is.

If these nonbelievers were to burn forever in a lake of fire in a pretend scenario, then do you honestly think that these nonbelievers would be raising their fists in the air while burning:

"I will never serve you! I'm just going to burn in this lake of fire! Haha, I am the winner and that makes you the loser, God, because I will never bow my life down before you!"

I just think this is an absurd and unrealistic scenario. Therefore, this assumption being made by Christians and other religious believers is absurd and unrealistic. There is just no way they would choose an eternal lake of fire over servitude to a God unless they have no idea how bad hell would really be for them. But I think most people who have a sane mind would realize how bad hell would be and would do everything they could to avoid it.

So the disbelief of most nonbelievers is a genuine disbelief. They have honestly concluded through looking at all the claimed evidence that there is no God. Therefore, I think this whole idea that nonbelievers are rebellious fools needs to die out.

Furthermore, since I have clearly established the fact that the disbelief of most nonbelievers is genuine, then how would it be fair for them to go to hell? They would be going to hell over something they were genuine and honest about. Why should they be held accountable over not serving a God whom they did not even believe was real in the first place?

 

[Spiderman]

God loves you nonbelievers. He just made you a little more hard-headed is all! Your spirits shall eventually arrive at perfection. There is no lake of fire for you

 

[lewisnotmiller]

God loves you nonbelievers. He just made you a little more hard-headed is all! Your spirits shall eventually arrive at perfection. There is no lake of fire for you

Man...really?
The travel brochures I was given all promised me pits of fiery hell. I've already started packing my SPF 15billion+ sunscreen.

 

[Spiderman]

Man...really?
The travel brochures I was given all promised me pits of fiery hell. I've already started packing my SPF 15billion+ sunscreen.

That is just a father trying to scare his children into good behavior. I've read other theologians who have interacted with the spirits. They (Like Allan Kardec) state that every soul shall eventually arrive at perfection. You might have to go through some firey ordeals and painful purifications but eventually you will be perfected.

God loves you unconditionally. God knows that you don't realize you're rejecting the truth. He knows that if he showed the truth to you plainly, you would accept it and repent.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

That is just a father trying to scare his children into good behavior. I've read other theologians who have interacted with the spirits. They (Like Allan Kardec) state that every soul shall eventually arrive at perfection. You might have to go through some firey ordeals and painful purifications but eventually you will be perfected.

Given that the concept of 'perfect' seems epically strange to me, I'm just going to let that slide. But to explain why it seems strange, I see truths and morality as subjective. So perfection is attainable only from a certain perspective. And forgive me if I'm not rushing to meet God's version of 'perfection'.

God loves you unconditionally. God knows that you don't realize you're rejecting the truth. He knows that if he showed the truth to you plainly, you would accept it and repent.

Yeah, so don't go assuming too much. I might be amazed, and I might be dumbfounded/awestruck. But I'm still going to want some sort of explanation for formaldehyde babies, amongst a long list of other items. Probably just a symptom of my imperfections that I'd question God, but still...

 

[Spiderman]

Given that the concept of 'perfect' seems epically strange to me, I'm just going to let that slide. But to explain why it seems strange, I see truths and morality as subjective. So perfection is attainable only from a certain perspective. And forgive me if I'm not rushing to meet God's version of 'perfection'.



Yeah, so don't go assuming too much. I might be amazed, and I might be dumbfounded/awestruck. But I'm still going to want some sort of explanation for formaldehyde babies, amongst a long list of other items. Probably just a symptom of my imperfections that I'd question God, but still...

Perfection would mean the best version of yourself. It would also be perfection in what you believe. It doesn't mean you will be a robot. You will be happy though.

God understands your need to understand. It is noble. You'll be fine! Just ask God to reveal the truth to you.

 

[George-ananda]

Most nonbelievers are sincere in their disbelief

Yeah, it never made sense to me that people think that other people believe in God and then say they don't believe in God. Go figure?

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Most nonbelievers are sincere in their disbelief

Yeah, it never made sense to me that people think that other people believe in God and then say they don't believe in God. Go figure?

This sounds a little like an argument @Quintessence has made at times. But it's more a matter of semantic difference than factual difference, in my opinion.
Some people worship everything as God. And some worship things which I know for a fact do exist, such as natural forces, or ancestors, etc. From that point of view, not only does 'god' exist, but there are gods everywhere. Quite literally.

But I don't see any of them AS god. So in THAT sense, I don't believe in God.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

God loves you nonbelievers. He just made you a little more hard-headed is all! Your spirits shall eventually arrive at perfection. There is no lake of fire for you

Do you actually believe in all honesty that perfection is defined by the god you believe in; and, objectively in the afterlife, this specific god and no other would change us to perfection?

Why would we be perfected by your god and no one else?

Also, if you stepped into a non-believers shoes, could you not consider it a fact that there is no god, no concept or literal hell in your reality, and find it very strange to hear someone else purpose you will be perfected by someone you know does not exist?

Doesn't that sound strange to you?

@MattMVS7

Thank you.

I think I'd see it like this:

Christian: You know god is calling you

Nonbeliever:

I'm listening. How?

Christian: He is in your heart.

Nonbeliever:

I'm looking: Where?

Christian: But he's there. You're choosing to reject him.

What do you mean?

Christian: You're just blind to his calling. You're going to burn if you don't accept my god.

Nonbeliever: How is that logically possible?

I can't hear him.
I can't experience him in my heart.
I can't comprehend him.

If someone is convicted, there has to be some action to where the crime would be warranted. If we are not saved by our actions, we should also not be punished for our actions. If everything is based on faith, it should not only be faith that would determine if one should be saved it also should be faith that one should not believe in god. One should be able to know god exist (hear, experience, and understand) there is a god in order to reject.

Nonbeliever: Can you see why I look so puzzled when you take me to court and point at a chair, desk, and gravel with no judge behind it?

Christian: But you need faith.

Nonbeliever:

I (Carlita) personally know why many other non-believers (atheists who do not believe in god) are upset over christian claims of conviction and punishment. We see a jury (the christians) but no judge.

@PopeADope Isn't that quite odd, if you were the defendant, to be told you will be judged by someone you do not hear, experience, and understand?

And even more so, do you not understand why it puzzles atheists that a jury (christians) convict you without proper acknowledgement of the judge himself?

and even more so, my question, how can you speak for a non-existant judge? Yes, we have the law books but that doesn't replace someone who needs to exist to convict the person of a crime. That, and you'd have to find evidence that we committed a crime towards our disbelief not a any individual sin unrelated to warrant any punishment at all.

So to conclude all of this which was fun putting together, you really can't convict someone with no evidence of a crime related to the accusation. Even if you have a prosecutor and your defender is jesus (or any prophet), do you believe jesus that you have a judge or would you like many atheists here want to represent yourself given your lawyer tends to look towards a judge you cannot hear, experience, and understand? Would you trust your lawyer? Why?

 

[Spiderman]

Do you actually believe in all honesty that perfection is defined by the god you believe in; and, objectively in the afterlife, this specific god and no other would change us to perfection?

Why would we be perfected by your god and no one else?

Also, if you stepped into a non-believers shoes, could you not consider it a fact that there is no god, no concept or literal hell in your reality, and find it very strange to hear someone else purpose you will be perfected by someone you know does not exist?

Doesn't that sound strange to you?

@MattMVS7

Thank you.

I think I'd see it like this:

Christian: You know god is calling you

Nonbeliever:

I'm listening. How?

Christian: He is in your heart.

Nonbeliever:

I'm looking: Where?

Christian: But he's there. You're choosing to reject him.

What do you mean?

Christian: You're just blind to his calling. You're going to burn if you don't accept my god.

Nonbeliever: How is that logically possible?

I can't hear him.
I can't experience him in my heart.
I can't comprehend him.

If someone is convicted, there has to be some action to where the crime would be warranted. If we are not saved by our actions, we should also not be punished for our actions. If everything is based on faith, it should not only be faith that would determine if one should be saved it also should be faith that one should not believe in god. One should be able to know god exist (hear, experience, and understand) there is a god in order to reject.

Nonbeliever: Can you see why I look so puzzled when you take me to court and point at a chair, desk, and gravel with no judge behind it?

Christian: But you need faith.

Nonbeliever:

I (Carlita) personally know why many other non-believers (atheists who do not believe in god) are upset over christian claims of conviction and punishment. We see a jury (the christians) but no judge.

@PopeADope Isn't that quite odd, if you were the defendant, to be told you will be judged by someone you do not hear, experience, and understand?

And even more so, do you not understand why it puzzles atheists that a jury (christians) convict you without proper acknowledgement of the judge himself?

and even more so, my question, how can you speak for a non-existant judge? Yes, we have the law books but that doesn't replace someone who needs to exist to convict the person of a crime. That, and you'd have to find evidence that we committed a crime towards our disbelief not a any individual sin unrelated to warrant any punishment at all.

So to conclude all of this which was fun putting together, you really can't convict someone with no evidence of a crime related to the accusation. Even if you have a prosecutor and your defender is jesus (or any prophet), do you believe jesus that you have a judge or would you like many atheists here want to represent yourself given your lawyer tends to look towards a judge you cannot hear, experience, and understand? Would you trust your lawyer? Why?

I'm glad you had fun with that!

Yes it will be strange for an unbeliever to hear my words but it shouldn't be offensive. I'm not condemning anyone.

Their maker has a responsibility to reveal the truth to them. As long as their maker refuses to speak to them, they are not at fault.

If a person doesn't know what they are doing is wrong they do not have sin:

• 
  John 15:22
  If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not have had sin: but now they have no cloak for their sin.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I'm glad you had fun with that!

Yes it will be strange for an unbeliever to hear my words but it shouldn't be offensive. I'm not condemning anyone.

Their maker has a responsibility to reveal the truth to them. As long as their maker refuses to speak to them, they are not at fault.

If a person doesn't know what they are doing is wrong they do not have sin:

• 
  John 15:22
  If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not have had sin: but now they have no cloak for their sin.

If you were in a nonbelievers shoes, wouldn't it be odd to hear your comrades convict you of a crime, bring you to court, for you to say you will be judged by a judge you do not hear, experience, and understand, and then should accept scripture (law books) and jury (christians) by faith that you will be convicted if you don't listen to your lawyer with whom sees a judge you do not see?

I know, run on.

1. If you were in our shoes, how can you be convicted by a judge you have not heard, experienced, nor understand?

2. If you were in our shoes, what evidence related to the crime that warrants our conviction?

3. If you were in our shoes, and Jesus was your attorney, why would you believe what he sees and not also depend whether you actually hear, experience, and understand the judge for yourself as well?

Why are you sooo dependent on your attorney?

"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened" (Romans 1:18-21).​

God is already placing people (believers and non-believers) in a position of knowledge of him because he is said to have already shown himself. Because he accuses our hearts to be wicked and futile, we turn away from him; yet, we cannot justify this. We have, according to god, no excuse for turning our backs. Hence why punishment is made. It isn't for disbelief but sin we commit because we do not believe in him.

Name a nonbeliever who has not sinned?

 

[Spiderman]

Do you actually believe in all honesty that perfection is defined by the god you believe in; and, objectively in the afterlife, this specific god and no other would change us to perfection?

Why would we be perfected by your god and no one else?

Also, if you stepped into a non-believers shoes, could you not consider it a fact that there is no god, no concept or literal hell in your reality, and find it very strange to hear someone else purpose you will be perfected by someone you know does not exist?

Doesn't that sound strange to you?

@MattMVS7

Thank you.

I think I'd see it like this:

Christian: You know god is calling you

Nonbeliever:

I'm listening. How?

Christian: He is in your heart.

Nonbeliever:

I'm looking: Where?

Christian: But he's there. You're choosing to reject him.

What do you mean?

Christian: You're just blind to his calling. You're going to burn if you don't accept my god.

Nonbeliever: How is that logically possible?

I can't hear him.
I can't experience him in my heart.
I can't comprehend him.

If someone is convicted, there has to be some action to where the crime would be warranted. If we are not saved by our actions, we should also not be punished for our actions. If everything is based on faith, it should not only be faith that would determine if one should be saved it also should be faith that one should not believe in god. One should be able to know god exist (hear, experience, and understand) there is a god in order to reject.

Nonbeliever: Can you see why I look so puzzled when you take me to court and point at a chair, desk, and gravel with no judge behind it?

Christian: But you need faith.

Nonbeliever:

I (Carlita) personally know why many other non-believers (atheists who do not believe in god) are upset over christian claims of conviction and punishment. We see a jury (the christians) but no judge.

@PopeADope Isn't that quite odd, if you were the defendant, to be told you will be judged by someone you do not hear, experience, and understand?

And even more so, do you not understand why it puzzles atheists that a jury (christians) convict you without proper acknowledgement of the judge himself?

and even more so, my question, how can you speak for a non-existant judge? Yes, we have the law books but that doesn't replace someone who needs to exist to convict the person of a crime. That, and you'd have to find evidence that we committed a crime towards our disbelief not a any individual sin unrelated to warrant any punishment at all.

So to conclude all of this which was fun putting together, you really can't convict someone with no evidence of a crime related to the accusation. Even if you have a prosecutor and your defender is jesus (or any prophet), do you believe jesus that you have a judge or would you like many atheists here want to represent yourself given your lawyer tends to look towards a judge you cannot hear, experience, and understand? Would you trust your lawyer? Why?

Yes I do believe that perfection is defined by the creator

 

[Spiderman]

If you were in a nonbelievers shoes, wouldn't it be odd to hear your comrades convict you of a crime, bring you to court, for you to say you will be judged by a judge you do not hear, experience, and understand, and then should accept scripture (law books) and jury (christians) by faith that you will be convicted if you don't listen to your lawyer with whom sees a judge you do not see?

I know, run on.

1. If you were in our shoes, how can you be convicted by a judge you have not heard, experienced, nor understand?

2. If you were in our shoes, what evidence related to the crime that warrants our conviction?

3. If you were in our shoes, and Jesus was your attorney, why would you believe what he sees and not also depend whether you actually hear, experience, and understand the judge for yourself as well?

Why are you sooo dependent on your attorney?

"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened" (Romans 1:18-21).​

God is already placing people (believers and non-believers) in a position of knowledge of him because he is said to have already shown himself. Because he accuses our hearts to be wicked and futile, we turn away from him; yet, we cannot justify this. We have, according to god, no excuse for turning our backs. Hence why punishment is made. It isn't for disbelief but sin we commit because we do not believe in him.

Name a nonbeliever who has not sinned?

Yes that would be very weird to be convicted of such a crime. I believe God owes them a major break that he will give them.

 

[Spiderman]

Yes it is all very complicated. I don't know how it will work out or why God remains silent.

 

[Spiderman]

1. If you were in our shoes, how can you be convicted by a judge you have not heard, experienced, nor understand?

You can't

2. If you were in our shoes, what evidence related to the crime that warrants our conviction?

none that I know of

3. If you were in our shoes, and Jesus was your attorney, why would you believe what he sees and not also depend whether you actually hear, experience, and understand the judge for yourself as well?

I shouldn't

Why are you sooo dependent on your attorney?

Because he died for me

 

[Katzpur]

Many Christians and other religious believers would think nonbelievers are not genuine in their disbelief in a God. They would think that they know he is real, but choose to reject and deny him out of rebellion. They would assume that these nonbelievers prefer to burn forever in a lake of fire than to serve and obey a God. Let me put it into a clear perspective for you how absurd this assumption is.

If these nonbelievers were to burn forever in a lake of fire in a pretend scenario, then do you honestly think that these nonbelievers would be raising their fists in the air while burning:

"I will never serve you! I'm just going to burn in this lake of fire! Haha, I am the winner and that makes you the loser, God, because I will never bow my life down before you!"

I just think this is an absurd and unrealistic scenario. Therefore, this assumption being made by Christians and other religious believers is absurd and unrealistic. There is just no way they would choose an eternal lake of fire over servitude to a God unless they have no idea how bad hell would really be for them. But I think most people who have a sane mind would realize how bad hell would be and would do everything they could to avoid it.

So the disbelief of most nonbelievers is a genuine disbelief. They have honestly concluded through looking at all the claimed evidence that there is no God. Therefore, I think this whole idea that nonbelievers are rebellious fools needs to die out.

Furthermore, since I have clearly established the fact that the disbelief of most nonbelievers is genuine, then how would it be fair for them to go to hell? They would be going to hell over something they were genuine and honest about. Why should they be held accountable over not serving a God whom they did not even believe was real in the first place?

I'm a believer, Matt, and I fully agree with everything you've said. You have expressed your position very well.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Yes that would be very weird to be convicted of such a crime. I believe God owes them a major break that he will give them.

That would be cool for those who believe god exist. In analogy, though, that would be nice; though, that's not what scripture teaches. Christianity is a hierarchy faith. The scripture was put together by the Church and it has a lot of laws (and used to be criminal laws) against those who disagreed with what the Church taught and enforced.

It is no different today. If Christian is said the bible has not changed, and the Church put together scripture in a political light (given jesus didn't write his own words down), why would we assume that scripture is all of the sudden nice to those who do not believe in god and kind to those who do?

It's a default for not loving god. For example, if I rejected chocolate ice cream, which I love, from my mother as a child, the default punishment is that I don't have pleasure from tasting ice cream I love. It's an absence of something that can help me in some way. So disbelief is an absence of love for god; therefore, the disbeliever, according to scripture, puts himself into punishment.

It's not moral. There shouldn't be am ultimatum to believe in god; and, there it is. We can change it and see god perfecting christians. Catholics do so by the belief of purgatory. Understand, though, that Catholicism isn't strictly based on the bible. It's not sola scriptura.

You can't quote perfection in afterlife for non-believers from the Bible. It's a Church teaching not biblical. Which isn't bad (which is pretty great, of course). Just if you're quoting scripture, and to justify the scripture you quoted, you'd have to find a disbeliever who has no sinned to be "cloaked innocent." I haven't found anyone who has not sin; and, god punishes people for their sins not for their disbelief.

 

[Katzpur]

Perfection would mean the best version of yourself. It would also be perfection in what you believe. It doesn't mean you will be a robot. You will be happy though.

God understands your need to understand. It is noble. You'll be fine! Just ask God to reveal the truth to you.

Three great posts in a row! I can't believe how similarly we think on this subject.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

1. If you were in our shoes, how can you be convicted by a judge you have not heard, experienced, nor understand?

You can't

2. If you were in our shoes, what evidence related to the crime that warrants our conviction?

none that I know of

3. If you were in our shoes, and Jesus was your attorney, why would you believe what he sees and not also depend whether you actually hear, experience, and understand the judge for yourself as well?

I shouldn't

Why are you sooo dependent on your attorney?

Because he died for me

Shrugs. Unless I see the judge, see why I'm convicted, know the evidence, and my lawyer can prove it to me, all I have is being handcuffed and a jury convicted me of a crime I'm not aware of committing.

Then, to be said "you were saved by your attorney. You don't go to jail." That confuses the heck out of me. Save me from what? You're doing it backwards.

 

[Spiderman]

That would be cool for those who believe god exist. In analogy, though, that would be nice; though, that's not what scripture teaches. Christianity is a hierarchy faith. The scripture was put together by the Church and it has a lot of laws (and used to be criminal laws) against those who disagreed with what the Church taught and enforced.

Yes, that is not cool! It is wrong that that happened.

It is no different today. If Christian is said the bible has not changed, and the Church put together scripture in a political light (given jesus didn't write his own words down), why would we assume that scripture is all of the sudden nice to those who do not believe in god and kind to those who do?

Scripture isn't easy to understand and we should always remember Christs words "“Amen, I say to you, tax collectors and prostitutes are entering the kingdom of God before you.” (Matt 21:31) Notice to whom Jesus was speaking, the chief priests and elders of the people

It's a default for not loving god. For example, if I rejected chocolate ice cream, which I love, from my mother as a child, the default punishment is that I don't have pleasure from tasting ice cream I love. It's an absence of something that can help me in some way. So disbelief is an absence of love for god; therefore, the disbeliever, according to scripture, puts himself into punishment.

It's not moral. There shouldn't be am ultimatum to believe in god; and, there it is. We can change it and see god perfecting christians. Catholics do so by the belief of purgatory. Understand, though, that Catholicism isn't strictly based on the bible. It's not sola scriptura.

You can't quote perfection in afterlife for non-believers from the Bible. It's a Church teaching not biblical. Which isn't bad (which is pretty great, of course). Just if you're quoting scripture, and to justify the scripture you quoted, you'd have to find a disbeliever who has no sinned to be "cloaked innocent." I haven't found anyone who has not sin; and, god punishes people for their sins not for their disbelief.

No, but there are some who aren't guilty because they have not heard God rebuke them and they don't know what they are doing is wrong