Moses, the most Evil man who ever lived

[Just_me_Mike]

So... because it happened a long time ago, it must have been ok for that time period?

No, I don't think it was OK for that period. I think the punishments laid out in the OP are just different than what we would do today. Where as today we lock rapists up for life (hopefully) but generally not, back then it was not so.

Human beings evolved morally from practices like that from a society as a whole. Remember too, Moses did not invent rape or teach a class in how to rape, he simply laid down the rules and justice associated with the occurrence. It was obviously something happening among them and he addressed it, albeit not in a manner we would today, but by giving rules or punishment to such an occurrence, it shows he felt it was an issue.

Take for example, slaves of the 1900's in America, among the black people fighting for freedom, I am sure there were plenty who simply wanted easements to the crime, and then there were those that physically fought back, live or die. The fact, is in both examples both black people feel it is an injustice and crime to an extent, but some react in extreme challenge, which is fine and others are more passive in resistance.

Moses lived among a people that seemed to include men who would have sex with woman against there will, I am not sure how problematic it was in terms of numbers, or how severe (torture or killing during the act). When we generally think of rape, we might associate major violence with it, so we assume the very worst.

So, T-Dawg have you done any personal research into the word rape used in the OP in regard to the Hebrew language? Can you confirm or deny it is the same term and meaning we apply today? I have not and I wonder if you have.

I have admitted that rape in the true sense of the word is wrong, always. I have also pointed out Moses acknowledged it was an issue. However to call him the most evil Man in the world, implies he partook in the practice, condoned it, and perpetuated it. I don't think the OP or yourself has presented any information that would warrant that conclusion. Have you?

One more thing to think about... If a man had sex with a women without intention to marry her, I would think it would be VERY easy for a women to get pregnant, and it might have been many women were getting pregnant and left to themselves to raise the child. If that is the case, part of what Moses did was address the problem of single mothers left to raising children, this may have deterred men from raping women, as it was not worth having to marry the person.

Again, not how we would think about it today, but it may have actually worked as a deterrent to the problem.

 

[Rainbow Mage]

Badran so you think Moses was one of the best people to ever live even after all the attrocities he commited, or ordered the children of Israel to commit? They went into a land of people who had never done them anywrong and slaughtered them, and plundered their possessions, and desecrated their temples. Not to mention that Moses killed off the old generation from Egypt by wandering in the desert 40 years. It says the people asked him: did you bring us out here to die? Why yes, that's in fact, just what he did.

 

[Rainbow Mage]

Oh and another good example of Moses' no doubt upstanding moral character was when he ordered his followers to slaughter the worshippers of the golden calf, although he left Aaron alive, even though Aaron built the calf and the altar and declared a feast day for it.

 

[Badran]

Well, for starters you know that my view of Moses would be very different based on the different stories we have, however, my main point is that claiming or suggesting that he is the worst person is completely over the top.

 

[Father Heathen]

Just out of curiosity, for those that bash the story of Moses at least the parts spoken of in the OP. How is it fair thousands of years later to judge a man from our modern day perspective?

If you yourselves, were born in that day and age, you might very well have been involved in the same practices. Or if not those practices, some other practices you would judge by today's standards as abhorrent.

I think it shows sense of immaturity to make such threads blatantly displaying and applying modern day standards to a world you really know nothing about out. None of us really know about the world back then, just only what we read, and as we know history is only as good as its writers.

Feel free to speak how you wish, but it rubs me wrong...

"Cultural norms" are never an excuse for rape and slavery. Victimizing the innocent is always wrong. What rubs me wrong is when people use an ancient superstition as a modern moral compass in lieu of reason and compassion.

 

[Just_me_Mike]

"Cultural norms" are never an excuse for rape and slavery. Victimizing the innocent is always wrong. What rubs me wrong is when people use an ancient superstition as a modern moral compass in lieu of reason and compassion.

As usual you take out what you want from my post to soap box yourself. :clap

The fact remains that I followed up that post with another post, to further illustrate my point. Which was that Moses obviously felt it was an issue and made a punishment for it, you may not like the punishment, but it may have in fact deterred rape in many cases.

Even today modern people can't agree on proper punishment for many crimes. Example the death penalty vs life, or prison vs rehabilitation.

It is a shame conversation skills are so lacking on the RF.

 

[Just_me_Mike]

No, I don't think it was OK for that period. I think the punishments laid out in the OP are just different than what we would do today. Where as today we lock rapists up for life (hopefully) but generally not, back then it was not so.

Human beings evolved morally from practices like that from a society as a whole. Remember too, Moses did not invent rape or teach a class in how to rape, he simply laid down the rules and justice associated with the occurrence. It was obviously something happening among them and he addressed it, albeit not in a manner we would today, but by giving rules or punishment to such an occurrence, it shows he felt it was an issue.

Take for example, slaves of the 1900's in America, among the black people fighting for freedom, I am sure there were plenty who simply wanted easements to the crime, and then there were those that physically fought back, live or die. The fact, is in both examples both black people feel it is an injustice and crime to an extent, but some react in extreme challenge, which is fine and others are more passive in resistance.

Moses lived among a people that seemed to include men who would have sex with woman against there will, I am not sure how problematic it was in terms of numbers, or how severe (torture or killing during the act). When we generally think of rape, we might associate major violence with it, so we assume the very worst.

So, T-Dawg have you done any personal research into the word rape used in the OP in regard to the Hebrew language? Can you confirm or deny it is the same term and meaning we apply today? I have not and I wonder if you have.

I have admitted that rape in the true sense of the word is wrong, always. I have also pointed out Moses acknowledged it was an issue. However to call him the most evil Man in the world, implies he partook in the practice, condoned it, and perpetuated it. I don't think the OP or yourself has presented any information that would warrant that conclusion. Have you?

One more thing to think about... If a man had sex with a women without intention to marry her, I would think it would be VERY easy for a women to get pregnant, and it might have been many women were getting pregnant and left to themselves to raise the child. If that is the case, part of what Moses did was address the problem of single mothers left to raising children, this may have deterred men from raping women, as it was not worth having to marry the person.

Again, not how we would think about it today, but it may have actually worked as a deterrent to the problem.

T-Dawg, did I lose you? :::::Crickets:::::

 

[Father Heathen]

As usual you take out what you want from my post to soap box yourself. :clap

The fact remains that I followed up that post with another post, to further illustrate my point. Which was that Moses obviously felt it was an issue and made a punishment for it, you may not like the punishment, but it may have in fact deterred rape in many cases.

Even today modern people can't agree on proper punishment for many crimes. Example the death penalty vs life, or prison vs rehabilitation.

It is a shame conversation skills are so lacking on the RF.

Sorry, kid. But forcing rape victims marry their attacker (so that he may continue to victimize her, and anyone with an iota of intelligence should be able to understand why it's wrong to punish the innocent victim as well as the guilty party) and instructing fathers on how to sell their own daughters (against their will, of course) into sexual slavery reveals the bible and those who authored it to be nothing more immoral and unjust primitive savages. The bible has no use beyond toilet paper and its morally inferior characters are unworthy of respect and reverence. Your beliefs are beneath me, and the only reason you believe them is because you were indoctrinated as a child to do so. But when you place your beliefs up against logic, they collapse like a pillar of garbage.

 

[Just_me_Mike]

Sorry, kid. But forcing rape victims marry their attacker (so that he may continue to victimize her, and anyone with an iota of intelligence should be able to understand why it's wrong to punish the innocent victim as well as the guilty party) and instructing fathers on how to sell their own daughters (against their will, of course) into sexual slavery reveals the bible and those who authored it to be nothing more immoral and unjust primitive savages. The bible has no use beyond toilet paper and its morally inferior characters are unworthy of respect and reverence. Your beliefs are beneath me, and the only reason you believe them is because you were indoctrinated as a child to do so. But when you place your beliefs up against logic, they collapse like a pillar of garbage.

Again you amuse me. "Indoctrinated as a child", man you don't know me. I was raised with nothing, I was raised by a dad who did drugs his whole life dealt weapons and did all sorts of bad things, he is not living anymore, but I can assure you I had no church or biblical teach in my childhood.
Your arrogant summary of me makes it extremely difficult to listen to anything you say, as you reveal yourself to just be nasty and vile.

 

[Smokeless Indica]

The character of Moses is indeed a villain, atleast in my interpretation of the stories. What made me laugh was in....... Exodus 32 (IIRC) where the first order he gives after coming down with the 10 Commandments is to kill like 3000 people because they took off their clothes and made a golden calf and started worshipping it.

Thou shalt not worship false idols. lol

 

[tarasan]

Again you amuse me. "Indoctrinated as a child", man you don't know me. I was raised with nothing, I was raised by a dad who did drugs his whole life dealt weapons and did all sorts of bad things, he is not living anymore, but I can assure you I had no church or biblical teach in my childhood.
Your arrogant summary of me makes it extremely difficult to listen to anything you say, as you reveal yourself to just be nasty and vial.

indeed, mate i completely agree that guy was outta line, but what more can you expect from people who put others beneath them for what they believe? he is just stating what the new athiests teach him

 

[Aquitaine]

Thou shalt not worship false idols. lol

Thou shalt not kill

Indeed, it is odd - he basically broke 1 Commandment to punish others who violated another one xD

 

[Father Heathen]

Again you amuse me. "Indoctrinated as a child", man you don't know me. I was raised with nothing, I was raised by a dad who did drugs his whole life dealt weapons and did all sorts of bad things, he is not living anymore, but I can assure you I had no church or biblical teach in my childhood.
Your arrogant summary of me makes it extremely difficult to listen to anything you say, as you reveal yourself to just be nasty and vile.

Well that's unfortunate because with childhood indoctrination you at least had an excuse. And yes, I'm nasty and vile just as the good lord made me.

 

[tarasan]

Well that's unfortunate because with childhood indoctrination you at least had an excuse. And yes, I'm nasty and vile just as the good lord made me.

Lol! yes...mike is the one who is sounding endoctrinated right now......

 

[Erebus]

As far as I know, Moses was a pretty typical tribal leader. Definitely a product of his environment but no more evil than various other tribal leaders. I do find it odd however that he's considered a "good" man by followers of the Abrahamic faiths.

 

[Kerr]

Dueteronomy 22:28 If a man rapes a young woman who is a virgin 29 he that lay with her must pay her father fifty shekels and marry her, and never divorce her as long as he lives (Good idea Moses)

Leviticus 20:13 If any one lie with a man as with a woman, both have committed an abomination, let them be put to death: their blood be upon them. :no:

Dueteronomy 13:15 Thou shalt forthwith kill the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, and shalt destroy it and all things that are in it, even the cattle. (even the innocent animals?)

Duet 27:26 Cursed be he that abideth not in the words of this law, and fulfilleth them not in work: and all the people shall say: Amen.

Could anyone possibly be any worse then this Moses?

Hitler for one. Stalin. Djingis Khan did a few things as well. Jack the Ripper comes to mind. The man behind the legend of Dracula (yes, he was real, just not a vampire, just a noble who had a habit of sitting and eating while watching the people he had executed slowly die because they where placed on a huge spike-like-thing, wooden maybe, which slowly worked its way through their bodies... according to a scientific magazine I once read, which happens to not be very trust-worthy, so maybe a grain of salt is needed). Ed Gein (the man who the bad guy in Silence of the Lambs is based on... yes, he tried to make a woman suit). That serial killer in Russia I don´t remember the name of who murdered, raped, ate and tortured about anything that moved. Some serial killer whos first name is Peter and whos second name I dont remember who in his youth discovered he liked to rape animals, especially while stabbing them. Just to name a few.

I don´t know that much about Moses, though. So I could be wrong.

 

[Aquitaine]

As far as I know, Moses was a pretty typical tribal leader. Definitely a product of his environment but no more evil than various other tribal leaders. I do find it odd however that he's considered a "good" man by followers of the Abrahamic faiths.

I've noticed this as well. Moses seems to be held in high regard as soon sort of example of a good person. When if you think about it, he was the second person (if we can group all the worshippers at the bottom of the mountain as 1) to break one of the ten commandments. EDIT: Not that I'm implying breaking one of the Commandments makes a person "bad", but y' know, he had 3,000 people murdered for worshipping a golden calf.

 

[Smokeless Indica]

Thou shalt not kill

Indeed, it is odd - he basically broke 1 Commandment to punish others who violated another one xD

I know.
Weren't they worshiping a "false" idol before he came down with the commandments? If so then how can they be punished when they did not yet know what was supposed to be the "law"?

 

[Aquitaine]

I know.

Weren't they worshiping a "false" idol before he came down with the commandments? If so then how can they be punished when they did not yet know what was supposed to be the "law"?

AFAIK yes, whilst Moses went up the mountain to receive the tablets, that's when the followers committed the atrocious and unforgivable act of taking off thier clothes/jewelry, and using it to build an idol and worship it.

Thus Moses saw them break a Commandment and punished them for doing so, and presumably - God approved! xD

 

[Father Heathen]

Lol! yes...mike is the one who is sounding endoctrinated right now......

So pointing out logical fallacies and injustice makes me indoctrinated?