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Moses said, Unto him ye shall hearken

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Rebbe Schneerson is was not a prophet nor is he now since he passed away a number of years ago.
Righto. And so far no one has claimed to see him arise from the grave, have they? Tell me what you think happens to a prophet who dies. Not talking about Rebbe Schneerson but where do you think 'he' is now anyway?
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Because Matthew and Luke were written much later and were more than likely written by people trying to create an origin story for a person whose history is completely absent from Jewish sources from the period. That fact that Matthew and Luke have different genelogies and nothing in the NT explains the differences means that even later Christians have had to create reasons why both are different.

There have been a lot of claimed mashiahh's in Jewish history and there have been many attempts to try to claim each one of them as the guy when they don't meet the requirements found in the Hebrew Tanakh.

There is a good series of videos called "A Rabbi Cross Examines the New Testament." See the link HERE. Here is another one HERE.

Also, this article may help.

Who's genealogy is given by Luke?
Now what are the requirements? Will the temple have to be rebuilt?
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
We dont' consider Luke to be authoratative for a number of reasons. The information in the text is not accurate of history around the time it is claimed to describe. In fact, even in Christian scholarship the authorship of the gospels is heavily debated.

I created a playlist that can help you with understanding the issues.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXECa6N2EVJVk6DFRCTRtYjeCCwd3kTR-
And you think authorship of the Hebrew scriptures is not questioned by Jews and others?
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
It appears that your thread has been addressed by various people who are not Jewish. Do you really want to know how Jews view the Torah and the reason why what we say about the Torah is reliable?
By the way, just so you know, I believe the Torah is reliable.
 

Harel13

Am Yisrael Chai
Staff member
Premium Member
Righto. And so far no one has claimed to see him arise from the grave, have they? Tell me what you think happens to a prophet who dies. Not talking about Rebbe Schneerson but where do you think 'he' is now anyway?
I don't believe the Messianic sect of Chabad holds he is a prophet. What they hold is that he's the messiah. There's no requirement in Judaism that the messiah be a prophet.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
I don't believe the Messianic sect of Chabad holds he is a prophet. What they hold is that he's the messiah. There's no requirement in Judaism that the messiah be a prophet.
He hasn't been seen as having been risen from his grave, has he? But thanks for mentioning Judaism says the Messiah doesn't have to be a prophet. So then is there anyone Judaism holds as a present day prophet? Speaking of which, the body does rot in the coffin, it's been quite a while.
 

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
Righto. And so far no one has claimed to see him arise from the grave, have they? Tell me what you think happens to a prophet who dies. Not talking about Rebbe Schneerson but where do you think 'he' is now anyway?

The concept of what happens after death, according to Jewish sources, is a bit of a long topic. I will try to shorten it a bit.

According to Torath Mosheh, what happens to a prophet when/she dies is the same that happens to any other human when they die. The mitzvoth they did and held by affects the world to come for them. In order to not retread a lot of ground, see the link below for what Rabbi Mosheh ben Maimon wrote about it.

Mishnah Torah - Hilchoth Teshuva chapter 8

Please keep in mind that this a translation from Hebrew to English.
 

Harel13

Am Yisrael Chai
Staff member
Premium Member
Ok. What requirements for the Messiah?
I'm an ex-Christian. I know what they teach. You have yet to tell me what Jesus did that fulfilled the prophecies.

He needs to:

- Gather the 10 lost tribes back to Israel.
- Build the Temple.
- Bring peace to the Jewish world and enable Jews to study in peace; no more wars.
- Be a leader of Israel (a king, in Scripture).
- Bring offerings to the Temple.
Actually we know what we're looking for according to Orthodox Judaism; it's very clear. We've known for a long-time, hence why Jesus wasn't accepted and eventually Christianity became a gentile religion. There have been plenty of false messiahs and they've all been rejected on the same grounds: that they didn't do what the prophecies say he should.

Here they are,
2 Shmuel 7:10-13
And I will appoint a place for My people, for Israel, and I will plant them, and they will dwell in their own place, and be disturbed no more; and the wicked people shall not continue to afflict them as formerly.
And even from the day that I commanded judges to be over my people Israel; and I will give you rest from all your enemies. And the Lord has told you that the Lord will make for you a house.
When your days are finished and you shall lie with your forefathers, then I will raise up your seed that shall proceed from your body after you, and I will establish his kingdom.
He shall build a house for My name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever.

This has not happened. Wicked people have been murdering Jewish people all throughout history. The Temple is not built. There is no King.


Yeshayahu 2-4

And it shall be at the end of the days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be firmly established at the top of the mountains, and it shall be raised above the hills, and all the nations shall stream to it.
And many peoples shall go, and they shall say, "Come, let us go up to the Lord's mount, to the house of the God of Jacob, and let Him teach us of His ways, and we will go in His paths," for out of Zion shall the Torah come forth, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.
And he shall judge between the nations and reprove many peoples, and they shall beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift the sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore.

People still go to war and the Temple has not been re-established.


Yeshayahu 11-12-13

And He shall raise a banner to the nations, and He shall gather the lost of Israel, and the scattered ones of Judah He shall gather from the four corners of the earth.
And the envy of Ephraim shall cease, and the adversaries of Judah shall be cut off; Ephraim shall not envy Judah, nor shall Judah vex Ephraim.

The lost tribes have not been gathered back to Israel.


Yeshahyahu 27-12-13

And it shall come to pass on that day, that the Lord shall gather from the flood of the river to the stream of Egypt, and you shall be gathered one by one, O children of Israel.
And it shall come to pass on that day, that a great shofar shall be sounded, and those lost in the land of Assyria and those exiled in the land of Egypt shall come and they shall prostrate themselves before the Lord on the holy mount in Jerusalem.

Not happened yet.


Yirmiyahu 31:33

And no longer shall one teach his neighbour or [shall] one [teach] his brother, saying, "Know the Lord," for they shall all know Me from their smallest to their greatest, says the Lord, for I will forgive their iniquity and their sin I will no longer remember.

Nothing about needing a middle-man and we don't live in an age where everyone knows G-d is G-d.


Yechezkel 37:26-28

And I will form a covenant of peace for them, an everlasting covenant shall be with them; and I will establish them and I will multiply them, and I will place My Sanctuary in their midst forever.
And My dwelling place shall be over them, and I will be to them for a God, and they shall be to Me as a people.
And the nations shall know that I am the Lord, Who sanctifies Israel, when My Sanctuary is in their midst forever."

Temple still not built and the Nations don't all recognise G-d as G-d.


Micah 4:1-3

And it shall be at the end of the days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be firmly established at the top of the mountains, and it shall be raised above the hills, and peoples shall stream upon it.
And many nations shall go, and they shall say, "Come, let us go up to the Lord's mount and to the house of the God of Jacob, and let Him teach us of His ways, and we will go in His paths," for out of Zion shall the Torah come forth, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.
And he shall judge between many peoples and reprove mighty nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nations shall not lift the sword against nation; neither shall they learn war anymore.

People still go to war. L-rd's House not established.


Tzefanaiah 3:9-13

For then I will convert the peoples to a pure language that all of them call in the name of the Lord, to worship Him of one accord.
From the other side of the rivers of Cush, My supplicants, the community of My scattered ones-they shall bring Me an offering.
On that day you shall not be ashamed of all your deeds [with] which you rebelled against Me, for then I will remove from your midst those who rejoice in your pride, and you shall no longer continue to be haughty on My holy mount.
And I will leave over in your midst a humble and poor people, and they shall take shelter in the name of the Lord.
The remnant of Israel shall neither commit injustice nor speak lies; neither shall deceitful speech be found in their mouth, for they shall graze and lie down, with no one to cause them to shudder.

This hasn't happened either. None of it.


Zach 14:9-11

And the Lord shall become King over all the earth; on that day shall the Lord be one, and His name one.
The whole earth shall be changed to be like a plain, from the hill of Rimmon in the south of Jerusalem; but it [Jerusalem] will be elevated high and remain in its old place; from the gate of Benjamin to the place of the first gate, until the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananel until the king's wine-cellars.
And they shall dwell therein, and there shall be no more destruction; but Jerusalem shall dwell in safety.

Jerusalem is hardly dwelling in safety and polytheism is still a thing.

Again, no, he wasn't part of Judaism. Some Jews incorporated him into their faith; that's not quite the same.
 

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
Ok. What requirements for the Messiah?

First, you have to remember that the word (משיח) doesn't mean "messiah." It means "anointed one" and is used for ANYONE who was anointed with oil. The Tanakh talks about a Jew of "proven" Davdic descent. Here is a good source for what Jews hold by in terms of this matter.

The word "messiah" in English is only used by Jews who are using the English vanicular, even if it doesn't match the actual Hebrew. That being said, see the following translation below of the Mishnah Torah where Rabbi Mosheh ben-Maimon explains how we Jews know what will happen to bring about the return of the Torah based kindom of Israel. (Again, note that the below is a translation and there are some elements of it that would need to tweeking if one wants to really understand what is written in Hebrew. Yet, for the sake of time this will work for you.)

Mishnah Torah - Hilchoth Melakhim 1: 1-
Israel was commanded to fulfill three mitzvot upon entering the Promised Land:
a) To choose a king, as Deuteronomy 17:15 states: 'Appoint a king over yourselves;'
b) To wipe out the descendents of Amalek, as Deuteronomy 25:19 states: 'Erase the memory of Amalek;'
c) To build God's Chosen House, as Deuteronomy 12:5 states: 'Seek out His Presence and go there.'

The appointment of a king should precede the war against Amalek. This is evident from Samuel's charge to King Saul (I Samuel 15: l-3): 'God sent me to anoint you as king ... Now, go and smite Amalek.'

Amalek's seed should be annihilated before the construction of the Temple, as II Samuel 7:1-2 states: 'And it came to pass, when the king dwelled in his palace, and God gave him peace from all his enemies who surrounded him, the king said to Nathan, the prophet: 'Look! I am dwelling in a house of cedar, ... but the ark of God dwells within curtains.'
Since it is a mitzvah to appoint a king, why was God displeased with the people's request of a king from Samuel? Because they made their request in a spirit of complaint. Rather than seeking to fulfill the mitzvah of appointing a king, they were simply intent on rejecting the Prophet Samuel as implied by God's reply to him (I Samuel 8:7): 'It is not you, but Me they have rejected.'

A king is not intially appointed except by a court of 70 elders, together with a prophet, as Joshua was appointed by Moses and his court, and as Saul and David, were appointed by Samuel of Ramah and his court.

When a king is appointed, he is anointed with oil reserved for this purpose, as I Samuel 10:1 states: 'And Samuel took the cruse of oil and poured it over his head. Then, he kissed him.'

Once a king is anointed, he and his descendents are granted the monarchy until eternity, for the monarchy is passed down by inheritance, as Deuteronomy 17:20 states 'Thus, he the king and his descendents will prolong their reign in the midst of Israel.'
If the king leaves only a young son, the monarchy should be held for him until he matures, as Yehoyada did for Yoash. The order of inheritance of the monarchy is the same as that governing the inheritance of property. An older son is given precedence over a younger one.

Not only the monarchy, but all other positions of authority and appointments in Israel, are transferred to one's children and grandchildren as inheritances forever.
The above applies if the knowledge and the fear of God of the son is equivalent to that of his ancestors. If his fear of God is equivalent to theirs but not his knowledge, he should be granted his father's position and given instruction. However, under no circumstance should a person who lacks the fear of God be appointed to any posi-tion in Israel, even though he possesses much knowledge.

Once David was anointed king, he acquired the crown of kingship. Afterwards, the kingship belonged to him and to his male descendents forever, as II Samuel 7: 16 states: 'Your throne shall be established forever.' Nevertheless, his acquisition of the monarchy was conditional, applying only to the righteous among his descendents, as Psalms 132:12 states: 'If your children will keep My covenant... their children shall also sit on your throne forever.'

Despite this condition, God assured David that the monarchy would never be taken from his descendents forever, as Psalms 89:31-38 states: "lf his children will forsake My Torah and cease walking in My statutes ... I will punish their transgressions with the rod and their sins with plagues. Nevertheless, I will not utterly remove My grace from him.... His throne shall be ... established forever.'​

Mishnah Torah - Hilchoth Melakhim 12

In the future, the Messianic king will arise and renew the Davidic dynasty, restoring it to its initial sovereignty. He will build the Temple and gather the dispersed of Israel.
Then, in his days, the observance of all the statutes will return to their previous state. We will offer sacrifices, observe the Sabbatical and Jubilee years according to all their particulars as described by the Torah.

Anyone who does not believe in him or does not await his coming, denies not only the statements of the other prophets, but those of the Torah and Moses, our teacher. The Torah testified to his coming, as Deuteronomy 30:3-5 states:
God will bring back your captivity and have mercy upon you. He will again gather you from among the nations... Even if your Diaspora is at the ends of the heavens, God will gather you up from there... and bring you to the land....

These explicit words of the Torah include all the statements made by all the prophets.
Reference to Mashiach is also made in the portion of Bilaam who prophesies about two anointed kings: the first anointed king, David, who saved Israel from her oppressors; and the final anointed king who will arise from his descendants and save Israel in the end of days. That passage Numbers 24:17-18 relates:

'I see it, but not now' - This refers to David;
'I perceive it, but not in the near future;" - This refers to the Messianic king;
'A star shall go forth from Jacob' - This refers to David;
'and a staff shall arise in Israel' - This refers to the Messianic king;
'crushing all of Moab's princes' - This refers to David as II Samuel 8:2 relates: 'He smote Moab and measured them with a line;'
'decimating all of Seth's descendants' - This refers to the Messianic king about whom Zechariah 9:10 prophesies: 'He will rule from sea to sea.'
'Edom will be demolished' - This refers to David as II Samuel 8:6 states 'Edom became the servants of David;'
'Seir will be destroyed' - this refers to the Messianic king as Ovadiah 1:21 prophesies: 'Saviors will ascend Mount Zion to judge the mountain of Esau....'

Similarly, with regard to the cities of refuge, Deuteronomy 19:8-9 states: 'When God will expand your borders... you must add three more cities.' This command was never fulfilled. Surely, God did not give this command in vain. There is no need to cite proofs from the works of the prophets for all their books are filled with mention of this matter.

One should not presume that the Messianic king must work miracles and wonders, bring about new phenomena in the world, resurrect the dead, or perform other similar deeds. This is definitely not true. Proof can be brought from the fact that Rabbi Akiva, one of the greater Sages of the Mishnah, was one of the supporters of King Bar Kozibah and would describe him as the Messianic king. He and all the Sages of his generation considered him to be the Messianic king until he was killed because of sins. Once he was killed, they realized that he was not the Mashiach. The Sages did not ask him for any signs or wonders. The main thrust of the matter is: This Torah, its statutes and its laws, are everlasting. We may not add to them or detract from them.

If a king will arise from the House of David who diligently contemplates the Torah and observes its mitzvot as prescribed by the Written Law and the Oral Law as David, his ancestor, will compel all of Israel to walk in (the way of the Torah) and rectify the breaches in its observance, and fight the wars of God, we may, with assurance, consider him Mashiach.

If he succeeds in the above, builds the Temple in its place, and gathers the dispersed of Israel, he is definitely the Mashiach.

He will then improve the entire world, motivating all the nations to serve God together, as Tzephaniah 3:9 states: 'I will transform the peoples to a purer language that they all will call upon the name of God and serve Him with one purpose.'

If he did not succeed to this degree or was killed, he surely is not the redeemer promised by the Torah. Rather, he should be considered as all the other proper and complete kings of the Davidic dynasty who died. God caused him to arise only to test the many, as Daniel 11:35 states: 'And some of the wise men will stumble, to try them, to refine, and to clarify until the appointed time, because the set time is in the future.'

Jesus of Nazareth who aspired to be the Mashiach and was executed by the court was also alluded to in Daniel's prophecies, as ibid. 11:14 states: 'The vulgar among your people shall exalt themselves in an attempt to fulfill the vision, but they shall stumble.'

Can there be a greater stumbling block than Christianity? All the prophets spoke of Mashiach as the redeemer of Israel and their savior who would gather their dispersed and strengthen their observance of the mitzvot. In contrast, Christianity caused the Jews to be slain by the sword, their remnants to be scattered and humbled, the Torah to be altered, and the majority of the world to err and serve a god other than the Lord.

Nevertheless, the intent of the Creator of the world is not within the power of man to comprehend, for His ways are not our ways, nor are His thoughts, our thoughts. Ultimately, all the deeds of Jesus of Nazareth and that Ishmaelite who arose after him will only serve to prepare the way for Mashiach's coming and the improvement of the entire world, motivating the nations to serve God together as Tzephaniah 3:9 states: 'I will transform the peoples to a purer language that they all will call upon the name of God and serve Him with one purpose.'

How will this come about? The entire world has already become filled with the mention of Mashiach, Torah, and mitzvot. These matters have been spread to the furthermost islands to many stubborn-hearted nations. They discuss these matters and the mitzvot of the Torah, saying: 'These mitzvot were true, but were already negated in the present age and are not applicable for all time.'

Others say: 'Implied in the mitzvot are hidden concepts that can not be understood simply. The Mashiach has already come and revealed those hidden truths.' When the true Messianic king will arise and prove successful, his position becoming exalted and uplifted, they will all return and realize that their ancestors endowed them with a false heritage and their prophets and ancestors caused them to err.

 

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
And you think authorship of the Hebrew scriptures is not questioned by Jews and others?

Another thing to remember is that a major part of Jewish life, for the last 3,000 years, has been to challange/question/debate what is written in the Hebrew Tanakh and making sure our sources are accurate and tracing the origin or our concepts. One of the rules that we use quite often is whether something is ancient, authentic, and authoratative. Further, as Rabbi Mosheh ben-Maimon once stated that we Jews have a requirement to accept the "truth" from where ever it may come. Further, as the Kuzari states that we have to hold by what is proven to be true.
 

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
I don't believe the Messianic sect of Chabad holds he is a prophet. What they hold is that he's the messiah. There's no requirement in Judaism that the messiah be a prophet.

Actually, there are sources that say the "mashiahh" will be a navi. Below Mosheh Rabbeinu in nevuah and above Shlomo HaMelakh (Solomon) in wisdom.
 

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
So who is the prophet now?

Prophecy ending several thousand years ago. Hashem made it clear in the Torah how we Jews are to operate if there is no prophecy. Torah and the halakha that comes from the Mosaic courts that existed. We hold that during the time when Jews will be in Israel and a Jew of Davidic descent has become apparent and is doing the mashiahh job description there will be a return of prophecy.
 

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
Probably sources that he might be. But it's not a requirement. If it were, then Bar-Kochva would have had no chance.

No, sources that say "he will be a navi" or if you like "will become a navi" as a part of the process. See below.

משנה תורה - הלכות תשובה
מפני שאותו המלך שיעמוד מזרע דויד בעל חכמה יהיה יתר משלמה, ונביא גדול הוא קרוב ממשה רבנו; ולפיכך ילמד כל העם ויורה אותם דרך ה', ויבואו כל הגויים לשומעו, שנאמר "והיה באחרית הימים, נכון יהיה הר בית ה' בראש ההרים" (ישעיהו ב,ב).


אגרות תימן
ואחד מן התנאים שיש אצלנו ידועים לכל נביא - שיהיה בתכלית המדע ואז ינבא אותו הקב"ה. לפי שהוא עיקר אצלנו שאין הנבואה שורה אלא על חכם וגיבור ועשיר. וביארו, שאפילו גיבור שיהיה כובש את יצרו, ועשיר - עשיר בדעתו. אבל כשיעמוד אדם שאינו מפורסם בחכמה, ויאמר שהוא נביא, אין אנו מאמינים אותו
.​

A king of Israel, to be assigned as a king, doesn't have to be a navi. Yet, the Davidic king who will bring about Yemoth Mashiahh is stated that he will become one. Rambam brings this down in both Mishnah Torah and in his letter to the Jews of Yemen. Yet, if you look at the language he uses in the Iggeroth Teiman he states that this person will be will have to be a special Hakham in the Torah before Hashem causes him to be a navi. If a person claims to be a navi but is not a Hakham in the Torah then we don't beleive them.

According the above perspective Bar-Kochva could have had a chance IF first and foremost he was proven and known to be a hakham in the Torah. There are some views that he had the strength and the charisma but that alone is enough.

See below:

 
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