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Moses said, Unto him ye shall hearken

Mitty

Active Member
Miracles are from God, and if you choose to mock the miracles of the New Testament you should be consistent and mock the miracles of the Hebrew scriptures, such as parting the Red Sea. But, hang on, that leaves the Israelites stranded in Egypt.
So how many weeks did it take Moses and his three million relatives and their animals to cross the Red Sea, given that there were about 30 women giving birth each hour.
And where did Moses find the 3000 tonnes of food per day to feed his three million relatives plus the feed for their animals while the pregnant women waddled across the Red Sea as they gave birth at the rate of 30 per hour?
And where did Moses find the six megalitres of water per day as his three million relatives waddled across the Red Sea?
Or is that story just another imaginative fantasy?

And David. Is David alive today? I don't think so.

Did Ezekiel and others not say 'my servant David' was the Messiah? [See Ezekiel 34:23] So why would God not refer to his true son as 'my servant David'? Is the identity of the Messiah revealed by name in the Hebrew scriptures? Not explicitly, and for good reason.

And the genealogies. When the two genealogies of Jesus are combined they provide a perfect blend of David's seed and God's holiness.

Why the sign above the cross? Because the Messiah, Son of Joseph, was only recognized as King by a remnant of Jewish believers. Like King David before him, Jesus was anointed well before becoming King. It was only when Jesus ascended to heaven as the Son of man that he was given dominion over all in heaven and earth. You should read Daniel 7:13,14.
But why did the Romans mock Jesus as the "King of the Jews" when they executed him for sedition?
 

Iymus

Active Member
Deuteronomy 18:15-22 speaks of a coming Prophet. Muslims like to associate this passage with Muhammad, whilst Christians believe the Prophet is Jesus Christ.

What do Jews believe?

I can only speak for myself. As written it seems like Joshua. Not that it cannot be Christ. This prophecy does not seem like a one time occurrence. I also see similarities with Moses and Ezra.

Extremely doubtful any of Ishmael's descendants are potential candidates though

The thing about prophecy is that it does work in cycles, but the culmination is the most perfect. This is why all prophecy ultimately points to Christ, lMO.

Seemingly simple response however I don't understand the intention behind it. Your initial question seems to imply or assert that it is an either / or scenario. I believe I showed that is not necessarily the case. Your response to my response seems to be dismissive, and that even if others fit the prophecy that does not matter because Christ is the culmination and end result. Is this assessment correct? I take no offense if you are dismissive i am only concerned if the assessment is correct.

This is why all prophecy ultimately points to Christ, lMO.

Very open and more partial to agreeing but neither agree or disagree here. Reason being is because one could potentially find a way to take both sides depending on the prophecy or how it is laid out.

perhaps would have been better if you excluded the term "all"
 
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Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
I'm not here to argue about Jesus in particular, ...
I'm glad we've put that to rest.

..., but what are you looking for in a successor to Moses, a prophet greater than he was?
I thought you wanted to discuss Deuteronomy 18:15. Or was that simply pretense?

There is no "prophet greater than he was" in the text. Moses was advising the Israelites who are about to enter Canaan without him. He cautions:

[09] When you enter the land that the LORD your God is giving you, you shall not learn to imitate the abhorrent practices of those nations.

[10] Let no one be found among you who consigns his son or daughter to the fire, or who is an augur, a soothsayer, a diviner, a sorcerer,

[11] one who casts spells, or one who consults ghosts or familiar spirits, or one who inquires of the dead.

[12] For anyone who does such things is abhorrent to the LORD, and it is because of these abhorrent things that the LORD your God is dispossessing them before you.

[13] You must be wholehearted with the LORD your God.

[14] Those nations that you are about to dispossess do indeed resort to soothsayers and augurs; to you, however, the LORD your God has not assigned the like.

[15] The LORD your God will raise up for you a prophet from among your own people, like myself; him you shall heed.​

About which we have ...

Rashi

מקרבך מאחיך כמני [THE LORD THY GOD WILL RAISE UP UNTO THEE A PROPHET] FROM THE MIDST OF THEE, OF THY BRETHREN, LIKE UNTO ME — This means: One who is as I am, from your midst, of your brethren, יקים לך WILL HE RAISE UP UNTO THEE in my stead, and so likewise from prophet to prophet throughout all ages.​

Ramban

‘Like myself,’ one who is like I am, from among your brethren. ‘Will raise up for you’ in place of me and so from prophet to prophet through the generations. This is the explanation of Rashi. And R’ Avraham Ibn Ezra says ‘like me,’ meaning just as I am a prophet of the Lord and not a magician or soothsayer. It could be that the phrase ‘from among you’ is to say that you can trust his words because he is your brother from among you. And so it appears to me that ‘like myself’ means that he will be trustworthy to speak as a prophet of the Lord so that you can believe him just as you believe me.​

Chizkuni

מאחיך כמוני, “from amongst your brethren, someone like me;” Moses refers to Joshua in this verse.​

And, in the JPS Torah Commentary: Deuteronomy, Milgrom writes:

The LORD your God will raise up for you a prophet That is, "Instead, the Lord your God will raise up for you a profit." This is the direct continuation of verse 14, indicating that Israel is to turn to prophets for the service that pagans seek from diviners and magicians. Since prophets are raised up by God, who will put His word in their mouths, they are His agents, and by turning to them one turns to God.

from among your own people Literally, "from among your own brothers," as on 17:15.

like myself The comparison refers only to the prophetic role that Moses played as God's spokesman.​

P.S. Anyone who imagines America will think again has a problem.
Yes, but problems are to be confronted and resolved. There are no guarantees.
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
So how many weeks did it take Moses and his three million relatives and their animals to cross the Red Sea, given that there were about 30 women giving birth each hour.
And where did Moses find the 3000 tonnes of food per day to feed his three million relatives plus the feed for their animals while the pregnant women waddled across the Red Sea as they gave birth at the rate of 30 per hour?
And where did Moses find the six megalitres of water per day as his three million relatives waddled across the Red Sea?
Or is that story just another imaginative fantasy?

But why did the Romans mock Jesus as the "King of the Jews" when they executed him for sedition?

It's going way off the subject to tackle these questions, but I believe that a careful reading of the scriptures provides answers to the questions you raise about the Exodus, particularly in relation to food and water.

The Roman governor, Pontius Pilate, insisted that the inscription be placed above Jesus' head as a way of mocking the Jews who had lined the streets to welcome their King. [See Matthew 21:5-11]
 
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Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
Seemingly simple response however I don't understand the intention behind it. Your initial question seems to imply or assert that it is an either / or scenario. I believe I showed that is not necessarily the case. Your response to my response seems to be dismissive, and that even if others fit the prophecy that does not matter because Christ is the culmination and end result. Is this assessment correct? I take no offense if you are dismissive i am only concerned if the assessment is correct.



Very open and more partial to agreeing but neither agree or disagree here. Reason being is because one could potentially find a way to take both sides depending on the prophecy or how it is laid out.

perhaps would have been better if you excluded the term "all"

There was nothing dismissive in my response.

Given what is said about this prophet in the Gospels and in Acts [John 1:21; John 5:46; John 6:14; Matthew 17:5; Acts 3:20-22; Acts 7:37] it seems highly likely that Jews at the time of Jesus were still awaiting the prophet foretold by Moses.

Why had the Jews at the time of Jesus not claimed Joshua as the prophet? Why did they await another?
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
Of course. I just wish you would do so without distorting the Torah. It's the difference between exegesis and eisegesis.

Where's the distortion?

Peter and Stephen were both Jews living in the first century. Both quoted Moses from the same passage in Deuteronomy. Both claimed that Moses was speaking about Jesus Christ.
 

Mitty

Active Member
It's going way off the subject to tackle these questions, but I believe that a careful reading of the scriptures provides answers to the questions you raise about the exodus, particularly in relation to food and water.
In other words you can't tell us how many weeks it took Moses and his three million relatives and their animals to shamble across the Red Sea and how many truck loads of food and tanker loads of water per day he needed to do it.

Or was that story just another imaginative biblical fantasy, given that there is not a skerrick of evidence that an 80+ year old geriatric and three million of his relatives wandered aimlessly around the middle east deserts for 40 years?

The Roman governor, Pontius Pilate, insisted that the inscription be placed above Jesus' head as a way of mocking the Jews who had lined the streets to welcome their King. [See Matthew 21:5-11]
So why did the Romans want to mock the Jews when they executed Jesus for sedition?
 
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exchemist

Veteran Member
Would you prefer it if I did not offer a personal opinion? I could say, instead, that the reason that the future prophet will not be a literary prophet of the Hebrew scriptures is because Jews do not believe that the Prophets or Writings have the same authority as the Torah. Moses has an authority greater than any other prophet of the Tanakh; yet he is prepared to say that the prophet to come will be a prophet 'LIKE UNTO ME'. The future prophet of which he speaks cannot be a lesser prophet.
Ah thanks, that's a better explanation.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
The future prophet of which he speaks cannot be a lesser prophet.
If you don't mind the interjection...

One thing that strikes me: If the future prophet cannot be a lesser prophet, why does Jesus in the book of John offer himself as a lesser offering? The pascal lamb offering is known as a lesser quality. I think it comes from Mishnah, but I'm still researching it.

Here's a few sources to show you what I'm talking about: { emphasis mine }

"The Mishnah and Talmud devote a very large section, known as a seder, to the study and analysis of this subject known as Qodashim, whereby all the detailed varieties of korbanot are enumerated and analyzed in great logical depth, such as qodshim kalim ("of minor degree of sanctity") and qodashei qodashim ("of major degree of sanctity")."

Korban - Wikipedia

"In the category of Kodshim Kalim are: Shalmei Yachid, Korbenos Todah, Bechor, Ma'aser, and Pesach."

Zevachim Chart #1 - THE DIFFERENCES BETWEEN KODSHEI KODASHIM AND KODSHIM KALIM

Note: If it comes from Mishnah, that means it predates Jesus. And if he were a Rabbi, he would know the details of the Korban and which ones were lesser quality. Why would G-d incarnate or The Jewish Messiah offer / sacrifice himself as a lesser quality sacrifice, in lesser quality manner?
 
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loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
Deuteronomy 18:15-22 speaks of a coming Prophet. Muslims like to associate this passage with Muhammad, whilst Christians believe the Prophet is Jesus Christ.

What do Jews believe?

Christ claimed it referred to Him

John 5:46

If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me.
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
Would you mind referencing your source(s)? Thanks.

Peter in Jerusalem, some time between the crucifixion of Jesus [approx. 30 CE] and the destruction of the temple [70 CE].
Peter speaking to fellow Jews at the temple in Acts 3 [19-26].

About this time, Libertines, Cyrenians, Alexandrians, and those of Cilicia and of Asia disputed with Stephen, a newly appointed deacon in the church at Jerusalem. Stephen gives his account in Acts 7 [verse 37].
 

Iymus

Active Member
There was nothing dismissive in my response.

Given what is said about this prophet in the Gospels and in Acts [John 1:21; John 5:46; John 6:14; Matthew 17:5; Acts 3:20-22; Acts 7:37] it seems highly likely that Jews at the time of Jesus were still awaiting the prophet foretold by Moses.

Why had the Jews at the time of Jesus not claimed Joshua as the prophet? Why did they await another?

Seemingly a bit vague but does sound reasonable and makes sense. Thank you for the clarification and edification.
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
If you don't mind the interjection...

One thing that strikes me: If the future prophet cannot be a lesser prophet, why does Jesus in the book of John offer himself as a lesser offering? The pascal lamb offering is known as a lesser quality. I think it comes from Mishnah, but I'm still researching it.

Here's a few sources to show you what I'm talking about: { emphasis mine }

"The Mishnah and Talmud devote a very large section, known as a seder, to the study and analysis of this subject known as Qodashim, whereby all the detailed varieties of korbanot are enumerated and analyzed in great logical depth, such as qodshim kalim ("of minor degree of sanctity") and qodashei qodashim ("of major degree of sanctity")."

Korban - Wikipedia

"In the category of Kodshim Kalim are: Shalmei Yachid, Korbenos Todah, Bechor, Ma'aser, and Pesach."

Zevachim Chart #1 - THE DIFFERENCES BETWEEN KODSHEI KODASHIM AND KODSHIM KALIM

Note: If it comes from Mishnah, that means it predates Jesus. And if he were a Rabbi, he would know the details of the Korban and which ones were lesser quality. Why would G-d incarnate or The Jewish Messiah offer / sacrifice himself as a lesser quality sacrifice, in lesser quality manner?

I'd be very surprised if the Pascal offering was considered a lesser offering. In what sense? Compared with which other offerings?
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
In other words you can't tell us how many weeks it took Moses and his three million relatives and their animals to shamble across the Red Sea and how many truck loads of food and tanker loads of water per day he needed to do it.

Or was that story just another imaginative biblical fantasy, given that there is not a skerrick of evidence that an 80+ year old geriatric and three million of his relatives wandered aimlessly around the middle east deserts for 40 years?

So why did the Romans want to mock the Jews when they executed Jesus for sedition?

The Jewish religious authorities brought the case against Jesus, and Pilate at first considered it purely a matter of Jewish law; until they claimed that Jesus was undermining the authority of Rome.

Pilate knew that Jesus had been proclaimed king by his followers [Matthew 27:11], but he also knew that the religious authorities did not want to see a public notice proclaiming a belief that they did not hold to be true ['We have no king but Caesar']. [John 19:19-22] Pilate refused to change the wording, despite the chief priests lobbying for a change.
 
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dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
I'd be very surprised if the Pascal offering was considered a lesser offering. In what sense? Compared with which other offerings?
You should read about them. :)

Atonement as I understand it (I'm not a Rabbi) would come from a higher order offering / sacrafice called an Olah offering as opposed to a Pesach offering. Olah is a higher order, Pesach is a lower order.

Burnt offering (Judaism) - Wikipedia
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
Peter speaking to fellow Jews at the temple in Acts 3 [19-26]. ... Stephen gives his account in Acts 7 [verse 37].
I do not view Luke as authoritative, I don't recognize him as an expert on Jewish expectations (which were, in any event, varied), and I certainly don't consider him to be a source of Torah insight.
 
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