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Featured Moses said, Unto him ye shall hearken

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by Redemptionsong, Aug 21, 2020.

  1. YoursTrue

    YoursTrue "We know gravity by happenstance."

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    Speaking of which, the temple was razed by the Roman armies. 2,000 years yet for the physical temple to be rebuilt.
     
  2. YoursTrue

    YoursTrue "We know gravity by happenstance."

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    Life circumstances are telling themselves. We shall see what we shall see.
     
  3. Rival

    Rival Veteran Member
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    Yes, we knew this would be the case:

    For the children of Israel shall remain for many days, having neither king, nor prince, nor sacrifice, nor pillar, nor ephod nor teraphim. - Hoshea 3:4.


    So it's no problem on our end.
     
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  4. Ehav4Ever

    Ehav4Ever Well-Known Member

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    I am a male, yes. No I do not recite any articles of faith every morning for the following reasons.
    1. The Rambam did not write the "Articles of faith" you are talking about. What the Rambam wrote, when translated from Judeo-Arabic to Hebrew, is called in Hebrew (י"ג עיקרי תורתינו) this translates into "13 foundations/principles of our Torah" and not "principles of faith."
      • The Rambam wrote the above in Judeo-Arabic in his commentary to the Mishnah and it is several pages long and extremely detailed.
      • You can see HERE how long they really are when translated from Judeo-Arabic into Hebrew.
    2. There is one interpetation written by an anonymous source which states, "I beleive with full faith...." but the Rambam did not write that. It is an interpretation of what the Rambam wrote.
    3. You are referencing the Yigdal litergy that is one interpetation of what the Rambam wrote and here is the history of it.
      • Leopold Zunz contends that it was written by Daniel ben Yehudah Dayan, who spent eight years in improving it, completing it in 1404. Some see in the last line of "Yigdal" a signature, "Yechiel b'Rav Baruch", though it is unclear who this might be. Hartwig Hirschfeld argues that the famous poet Immanuel of Rome is the author. Immanuel made several attempts at putting the 13 Principles into verse, e.g. a 72-line version entitled “Poem Based on the 13 Articles”. "Yigdal" shares rhythm, rhyme and a number of phrases with this poem.
    4. The Yigdal you are referecing is not recited every morning in a number of communities such as Yemenite Jews, Syrian Jews, and various Chasidim.
    5. There is no halakha (Jewish law) that states that women can't recite the Yigdal. There is also no halakha that says that anyone even needs to state it at all.
    Further, the Rambam is not the only one who compiled a lost of foundations of the Torah. Rabbi Saadya Gaon, Rabbeinu Hananel, Rabbi Yoseph Albo, Rav Avraham ibn Dauth, to name a few.

    Sorry for the long answer but it is the Jewish way, ;)
     
    #184 Ehav4Ever, Aug 24, 2020
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2020
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  5. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
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    Can't be... Luke 12:49-53.

    This ^^ doesn't fit. Compare it to Isaiah 11:6.

    Sorry.
     
    #185 dybmh, Aug 24, 2020
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  6. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    Yep. There's nothing quite like nearly two millennia of oppression laced with Christian-inspired pogroms to give one a bitter view of history. And, still, we've done pretty well for ourselves as a people.
     
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  7. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    Again, you have chosen some interesting passages to compare.

    Jesus gives his peace to the believer (John 14:27), but he brings division between the believer and non-believers (between those born again of the spirit, and those not born again Luke 12:49-53). This even happens within families.

    Isaiah does not make room for the Church age in his prophecies, because he is sending a message to Israel, and the Church is a 'mystery', hidden in scripture.

    Isaiah 11 begins with a reference to the coming Messiah. He will be the One with the Spirit 'resting upon him'. He will 'smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked'.

    From Isaiah 11 verse 6 we see a change, for the things spoken of in verses 6-9 have definitely not come to pass. In our time, divisions and violence occur on earth.

    Compare this with lsaiah 61. Here the speaker begins with the words of the Messiah: 'The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me'. He goes on to elucidate the role of the Messiah by saying 'the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, and to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of prison to them that are bound; to proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God;'

    The 'day of vengeance' on the enemies of God has already been mentioned in Isaiah 11:11-16. But when Jesus reads from Isaiah 61, at the beginning of his ministry in Nazareth (Luke 4:16-32), he intentionally stops his reading before including' the vengeance' in his role.

    Is this the difference between Messiah 'son of Joseph' and Messiah 'son of David'? Jesus certainly had no intention of bringing vengeance. Now read 2 Peter 3:8-10. What reason is given for God's slackness in bringing vengeance?
     
  8. YoursTrue

    YoursTrue "We know gravity by happenstance."

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    OK, I can see that you are very learned in these aspects. So now -- the Tanach has examples of those that were brought back from the dead. Why do you think these occurrences were written down? Starting with the widow's son that Elijah brought back from a dead state at 1 Kings.
     
  9. YoursTrue

    YoursTrue "We know gravity by happenstance."

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    I agree that the history of much of that called Christendom is sordid. But that also has been prophesied. But then, there are instances of Israelites back in the days of the prophets in the Tanach when they killed their own. Also, this does not mean that God cannot and will not gather his sheep to one flock with one shepherd. Sheep to the best of my knowledge are not known to kill one another.
     
  10. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    Was this the same prophet that led you to believe that Pilate was Jewish?
     
  11. YoursTrue

    YoursTrue "We know gravity by happenstance."

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    I am referencing that many Orthodox men put on the tefillen each day and recite the "13 foundations," etc. of the Torah.
     
  12. Rival

    Rival Veteran Member
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    Are you talking about the Amidah/Shemonah Esreih? Also called The Eighteen Blessings. I think maybe you're confusing these things. The Amidah is part of Shacharit (morning prayer).
     
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  13. YoursTrue

    YoursTrue "We know gravity by happenstance."

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    I don't recall learning that he was Jewish.
     
  14. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    Here's an interesting passage from Deuteronomy 34:9-12.
    'And Joshua the son of Nun was full of the spirit of wisdom; for Moses had laid his hands upon him: and the children of Israel hearkened unto him, and did as the LORD had commanded Moses.
    And there arose not a prophet since in Israel like unto Moses, whom the LORD knew face to face,
    In all the signs and the wonders, which the LORD sent him to do in the land of Egypt to Pharaoh, and to all his servants, and to all his land,
    And in all that mighty hand, and in all the great terror which Moses shewed in the sight of all Israel'.

    When the baton of leadership was passed to Joshua, the people, lsrael, were still required to do as Moses had commanded. Israel were still to follow the law commanded by Moses. The text then says, 'there arose not a prophet since in Israel like unto Moses, whom the LORD knew face to face'.

    Since when? Since Moses, according to the Hebrew scriptures?

    If that is the case, then ONLY the Messiah can be the Prophet of Deuteronomy 18:18. Joshua was not, if one applies the definition of 'face to face' knowledge, a prophet like unto Moses.

    The great prophet and miracle worker must be the Messiah.
     
  15. YoursTrue

    YoursTrue "We know gravity by happenstance."

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    OK, I'm referring to the recitation many men make with tefillin. I guess I am wrong because I thought they were to recite the thirteen articles of faith per (not by?) Maimonides when binding the tefillin on themselves.
     
  16. Rival

    Rival Veteran Member
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    You can read all the prayers when davening with tfillin here Siddur Ashkenaz, Weekday, Shacharit, Preparatory Prayers, Tefillin

    This is nusach Ashkenaz.
     
  17. Ehav4Ever

    Ehav4Ever Well-Known Member

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    Actually, what you described "tefillin" and "reciting the Yigdal" are not interconnected. All Torah based Jews put tefillin either a) only during Shahhrith or b) throughout the day. That is halakha that comes from Mount Sinai.

    Further, reciting Yigdal it is not a matter of many. It is a matter some do and some don't. Lastly, if you read the Yigdal in Hebrew and Adon Olam you will see that has some reasons for them that are obvious about staying away from the ideas expressed by missionaries.

    You mentioned earlier they were "articles of faith" and from the Rambam. I was correcting you that the Yigdal, you referenced" was not "articles of faith" and that the Rambam did not write the Yigdal.
     
  18. Ehav4Ever

    Ehav4Ever Well-Known Member

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    Where did you get the idea that "many men" recite he Yigdal with, or while putting on tefillin? I looked in a Ashkenazi siddur and they don't do such a thing. That doesn't exist in Sephardic siddurs and it is definately not a Yemenite tradition. Further, the Rambam does write anything about "reciting" any articles of faith. What he wrote was not something people recite, and as mentioned before they were not articles of faith.

    Someone may have misinformed you.
     
  19. Ehav4Ever

    Ehav4Ever Well-Known Member

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    It was written down because it was something that happened and it was information that had been passed down. Melakchim (Kings) was a collection of histories that were compilled together by the Hakhamim of Israel. It is not information of a binding nature like the Torah. If a Jew had never heard of the text Melakhim but they had the Torah and the Halakha they could function perfectly fine.
     
  20. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    Jesus was a nice Jewish man who aspired to be the messiah but failed. He simply did not fulfill the prophecies.
     
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