Moses and samuel

[Brian2]

No, Christendom has done that, all by themselves! Christendom is poison. They’ve even got you thinking that killing their brothers is just done by “some weeds”. Please! They’ve been part “of” the world (John 17:16) since it’s inception, about 1700 years ago, joining the world in its conflicts, beginning with Constantine. When the Protestant offshoot arose, nothing changed in that regard. With very few exceptions, Christendom’s members have developed a reputation of hypocrisy, only ‘loving their brothers’ when convenient, i.e., during peacetime.

I don't think that Christians should not go to war to protect their country, family and friends. I'm not a JW.
I hear that Christians in the early church used to be soldiers and the reason that they were not for a while there was that it entailed some sort of emperor worship.
But I don't think you answered my post about the weeds being part of the church till the end, when the angels would separate the wheat from the tares.

Wait, I just now read this whole sentence....“As corrupt as”, eh?
Now you are agreeing that Christendom is corrupt? Why are you, for the most part, following their dogma?

Of course parts of Christianity is corrupt. That is the scriptural stance and if you think that the Watchtower is not then you are being unscriptural about it.
I believe what I find in the Bible.

They (you?) worship Jesus, yet he said it’s his Father that provides enlightenment at Luke 10:21. And Yahweh requires sole worship, according to Exodus 20:1-4. You know, we follow Jesus’ example in that regard, too.

Jesus is called Yahweh in the scriptures and is called God. I worship Him and the early Watchtower did the same.

Christendom has had 1700 years to twist Scriptures. Isaac Newton even discovered their deceit, with the Comma Johannum . They’ve even changed the Bible’s words...removing God’s Own Name from their versions, following a Jewish superstition. (I didn’t think Christians felt it necessary to follow Jewish tradition.) Thankfully, Jehovah made sure the KJV (which became very popular) kept it in at least 4 times.

Bibles show where the Name of God was originally used in the scriptures.
The Watchtower used the Name in the New Testament in places where the only determining factor is whether it fits JW doctrine or not. The same thing can be said for many places where the Name is left out of the New World Translation.
When it comes to the Johannum Comma, it does not matter to Christianity whether the comma goes before or after, but the facts tells us where it should go.
Paradise is what the Jews used to call the part of Sheol where the dead went who were to be comforted in death.
Jesus used to say "Truly I tell you" very often and never once in the gospels did He say "Truly I tell you today".
Even if you have the comma where you want it,,,,,,,,,,,,,,and of course you do in the New World Translation, then you still have problems with Jesus being on earth with the thief you say does not go to heaven and Jesus who does is not going to be on the earth with anyone. The whole passage is an embarrassment for the Watchtower and by making it an issue about the comma they probably hope nobody will notice the other problem.

You know, valuing God’s Name is important. Malachi 3:16

It is the one who has the name who is important and you should be worshipping the one who has inherited the name above all names. He has inherited it because it belonged to His Father and everything the Father has belongs to Jesus. Jesus has the same nature, glory, name, power etc If we have seen Jesus we have seen the Father.

You mentioned that the account w/ Saul talking to Samuel doesn’t say it was a demon.
Well, neither does Exodus 7 mention whose power was behind Pharaoh’s magic priests. But we know, from Biblical context.
Same with Saul & “Samuel.” If the dead “return to the ground”, “know nothing”, “do not praise Jehovah”, and “their thoughts perish”, there’s no other valid explanation.

Take care, my cousin.

The account of the Egyptian magicians says they used their magic arts (or some such thing) It was not through God, God was making war against the gods of Egypt and was showing that He is God and those gods are nothing. It's easy to see that the priests were either using a knowledge of chemistry or the powers they said came from their gods.
When it comes to the witch of Endor we do know that either the witch was a charlatan or that demons were behind what she did. We also know from the text that this time something happened that she did not expect and from the text we know that Samuel came from the place of the dead and spoke to Saul.
THAT is what the text tells me and that is what I believe. I don't have to justify my doctrine by saying the text does not actually mean what it says.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

I don't think that Christians should not go to war to protect their country, family and friends. I'm not a JW.
I hear that Christians in the early church used to be soldiers and the reason that they were not for a while there was that it entailed some sort of emperor worship.
But I don't think you answered my post about the weeds being part of the church till the end, when the angels would separate the wheat from the tares.



Of course parts of Christianity is corrupt. That is the scriptural stance and if you think that the Watchtower is not then you are being unscriptural about it.
I believe what I find in the Bible.



Jesus is called Yahweh in the scriptures and is called God. I worship Him and the early Watchtower did the same.

Bibles show where the Name of God was originally used in the scriptures.
The Watchtower used the Name in the New Testament in places where the only determining factor is whether it fits JW doctrine or not. The same thing can be said for many places where the Name is left out of the New World Translation.
When it comes to the Johannum Comma, it does not matter to Christianity whether the comma goes before or after, but the facts tells us where it should go.
Paradise is what the Jews used to call the part of Sheol where the dead went who were to be comforted in death.
Jesus used to say "Truly I tell you" very often and never once in the gospels did He say "Truly I tell you today".
Even if you have the comma where you want it,,,,,,,,,,,,,,and of course you do in the New World Translation, then you still have problems with Jesus being on earth with the thief you say does not go to heaven and Jesus who does is not going to be on the earth with anyone. The whole passage is an embarrassment for the Watchtower and by making it an issue about the comma they probably hope nobody will notice the other problem.



It is the one who has the name who is important and you should be worshipping the one who has inherited the name above all names. He has inherited it because it belonged to His Father and everything the Father has belongs to Jesus. Jesus has the same nature, glory, name, power etc If we have seen Jesus we have seen the Father.

​

The account of the Egyptian magicians says they used their magic arts (or some such thing) It was not through God, God was making war against the gods of Egypt and was showing that He is God and those gods are nothing. It's easy to see that the priests were either using a knowledge of chemistry or the powers they said came from their gods.
When it comes to the witch of Endor we do know that either the witch was a charlatan or that demons were behind what she did. We also know from the text that this time something happened that she did not expect and from the text we know that Samuel came from the place of the dead and spoke to Saul.
THAT is what the text tells me and that is what I believe. I don't have to justify my doctrine by saying the text does not actually mean what it says.

Grief, I keep missing posts! I haven’t the time to reply now (I just replied so I’ll have this in my history), I will do so later.

One point... You say:
“I don't have to justify my doctrine by saying the text does not actually mean what it says.”
Yeah you do! The Bible says “the dead know nothing” ; ‘their thoughts perish”. Do you believe the texts “actually mean what it says”? Or what Ecclesiastes 3:19-21 states? Others.

Our explanation of Saul & Samuel is in agreement with the Bible’s entire context.

 

[dybmh]

who was the source behind their power.

The story I remember is from the legend of the nephilim. There were two fallen angels (uzza and aza'el) who tempted the mortal women making the nephilim. They were cursed, put in chains, and taught sorcery to humans. They are creditted for teaching both the egyptian sorcerers and Bilaam.

Uzza and Aza'el | Encyclopedia.com

"Uzza and Aza'el themselves were exiled by God but they are still alive, and are responsible for some of the evils of this world: they teach sorcery, and they show women how to make themselves beautiful to men."

Legends of the Jews 3:1:24

"Israel had other angel adversaries, besides [samael the accuser]. Uzza, the tutelary Angel of the Egyptians, appeared before God, and said..."

Numbers 23:7

Zohar 1:126a:5

"Where did Bilaam learn everything that he did and all that he knew? He said to him, He learned it from his father. But in "the mountains of the east" (Num. 23:7), in the land of the east, he learned the enchantments and kinds of magic, for in these mountains abide the angels Aza and Azael, whom the Holy One, blessed be He, caused to fall from heaven (because they denounced the creation of man). They are tied in chains of iron there and reveal spells to men. This is where Bilaam gained knowledge"

 

[Brian2]

Grief, I keep missing posts! I haven’t the time to reply now (I just replied so I’ll have this in my history), I will do so later.

One point... You say:
“I don't have to justify my doctrine by saying the text does not actually mean what it says.”
Yeah you do! The Bible says “the dead know nothing” ; ‘their thoughts perish”. Do you believe the texts “actually mean what it says”? Or what Ecclesiastes 3:19-21 states? Others.

Our explanation of Saul & Samuel is in agreement with the Bible’s entire context.

Yes it is easy to miss posts on this forum, or to spend a lot of time looking for possible posts that may or may not exist.
In context "the dead know nothing" (Eccles 9:5) seems to be about knowing what is happening on the earth.
It certainly does not mean that the dead do not exist.
In context "their thoughts perish" (Ps 146:4) means and is translated in more modern translations as "their plans perish". It is not about the dead going out of existence it is about the plans of a person going at the death of the person.
Eccles 3:18-21
18 I also said to myself, “As for humans, God tests them so that they may see that they are like the animals. 19 Surely the fate of human beings is like that of the animals; the same fate awaits them both: As one dies, so dies the other. All have the same breath; humans have no advantage over animals. Everything is meaningless. 20 All go to the same place; all come from dust, and to dust all return. 21 Who knows if the human spirit rises upward and if the spirit of the animal goes down into the earth?”
Solomon's musings about life and it's meaning. It certainly does look as if an animal has exactly the same fate as a human and we have no advantage over the animals, we all die and return to dust. Who knows if the human spirit rises up and the spirit of an animal goes down to the earth? I certainly cannot tell from looking, I need faith. By faith I know that we humans have a spirit that goes back to God. (and that spirit is not just a force, it knows my mind as the Spirit of God knows the mind of God)(1Cor 2:11)
So anyway it really looks to me as if this part of Ecclesiastes is the musings of Solomon from what he sees with his eyes. Everything in the Bible might be inspired by God but not everything is true. It has to be seen in context and for what it is.
Again there is nothing there that show that we go out of existence at death.