• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Moses and Paul in Taubes' Judaism: Addendum.

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
The original thread on Taube's remarkable theory concerning Moses and Paul took place a few months ago and was edited into an essay. Notwithstanding Professor Taube's theory, i.e., that Paul takes the place of Moses to fulfill the plan of God (in the temporary setting aside of Israel as a people of God, as part of God's immutable plan from eternity past), nevertheless neither Taubes nor the original thread took up the theological nuances for why God temporarily sets Israel aside.

This thread proposes to deal with the theological reasoning for why God foreordained the dispensation whereby Israel's divine chosen-ness is temporarily set aside for the election of the Church.



John
 
Last edited:

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
The original thread on Taube's remarkable theory concerning Moses and Paul took place a few months ago and was edited into an essay. Notwithstanding Professor Taube's theory, i.e., that Paul takes the place of Moses to fulfill the plan of God (in the temporary setting aside of Israel as a people of God, as part of God's immutable plan from eternity past), nevertheless neither Taubes nor the original thread took up the theological nuances for why God temporarily sets Israel aside.

This thread proposes to deal with the theological reasoning for why God foreordained the dispensation whereby Israel's divine chosen-ness is temporarily set aside for the election of the Church.

At times the Messiah who brings about the redemption is viewed simply as a Moses of the new aeon, a Moses redivivus, and the question arises whether the parallel can be pursued any further. Is the Messiah as a new Moses who leads his people out of exile into the world of redemption also perhaps the giver of a Torah for the time of the redemption? Is the Torah and its radiation outward via the tradition the final word of God to Israel or is there in the Messianic or apocalyptic view a new revelation, a new form of the word of God?

Gershom Scholem, The Messianic Idea in Judaism, p. 53.​

Without addressing the plethora of information already covered in the thread Masoretic Malfeasance, it can be stated that the second Moses and Messiah will indeed in some manner produce either a new Torah, or a revolutionary reading of the original text. The Jewish sages read Isaiah 51:4 to imply nothing less. In, On the Kabbalah and Its Symbolism, Scholem associates the ability to read new revelation out of the old text with the "mystical plasticity of the divine word" (p. 76). But it's Rabbi Samson R. Hirsch who connects this plasticity of the divine word directly to the scriptures that portend the setting aside of Israel precisely at a time when a new reading concerning the old words comes into vogue as the testament to the setting aside of Israel.



John
 
Last edited:

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
Moses and Paul in Taubes' Judaism: Addendum.

Moses is a great truthful Messenger/Prophet of G-d/Allah/Yahweh with whom G-d conversed directly. Right?
Paul faked a vision and never had any direct converse with G-d/Allah/Yahweh, as I understand. Right?
Therefore, there is no validity of any comparison between both of the personages. Right?

Regards
 

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
paar4_zpsnto2ictv.png

. . . Except Paul.




John
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
Moses and Paul in Taubes' Judaism: Addendum.

As is held, I understand, by all the 32000+ Pauline Christianity people, (including Mormons and JWs) Paul got converted after seeing a vision. Right?
If Jesus could see vision of Devil/Satan in the wilderness for forty days while he was fasting, as per NT Bible why cannot Paul see in his vision Devil/Satan, please?
Couldn't this be the "thorn in flesh", Paul confessed about? Right?

I love Jesus and Mary, they never loved Paul, I understand. Right?

Regards
_____________
 
Last edited:

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
Moses and Paul in Taubes' Judaism: Addendum.
Moses is a great truthful Messenger/Prophet of G-d/Allah/Yahweh with whom G-d conversed directly. Right?
Paul faked a vision and never had any direct converse with G-d/Allah/Yahweh, as I understand. Right?
Therefore, there is no validity of any comparison between both of the personages. Right?

Unless you were with Moses when he conversed with God, and with Paul on the road to Damascus, your statement can only come from the immediacy of an intermediary:

If the tablets of the testimony were written on one side only, the person responsible for reading to the people the laws written on the tablets would be placed in a dictatorial position vis-a-vis the masses listening to his speech. He alone would have the text before his eyes, and the masses would have to simply accept what they would hear from his mouth. Clearly, he would be the intermediary between the people and the law.

The Hirsch Chumash, Exodus 32:15-16.​

The traditions come down from Moses' mouth and pen are the dictatorial authority/intermediary upon which you suppose to judge Paul. But there's another way to engage the spirit of God than through this dictatorial, traditional, orthodoxy. And that's what Paul, and this thread, are all about: a new relationship with God based not on the first Moses, and the second set of tablets, but on the second Moses and the first set of tablets.



John
 
Last edited:

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
Without addressing the plethora of information already covered in the thread Masoretic Malfeasance, it can be stated that the second Moses will indeed in some manner produce either a new Torah, or a revolutionary reading of the original text. The Jewish sages read Isaiah 51:4 to imply nothing less. In, On the Kabbalah and Its Symbolism, Scholem associates the ability to read new revelation out of the old text with the "mystical plasticity of the divine word" (p. 76). But it's Rabbi Samson R. Hirsch who connects this plasticity of the divine word directly to the scriptures that portend the setting aside of Israel precisely at a time when a new reading concerning the old words comes into vogue precisely as the testament to the setting aside of Israel.

If we consider the special characteristics of the tablets and of the writing that was on them, and the fact that these characteristics are reported precisely here and not above at the end of chapter 31, it becomes clear that they must be closely connected with the grave event that was taking place at this time.

The Hirsch Chumash, Exodus 32:15-16.
The grave event taking place immediately prior to the notation of the special characteristics of the tablets in Moses' hand is the event whereby God speaks of setting aside Israel and starting a new people or dispensation with Moses as an individual. It's this grave event that immediately precedes the notation concerning the special characteristics of the tablets of the law.

If the tablets of the testimony were written on one side only, the person responsible for reading to the people the laws written on the tablets would be placed in a dictatorial position vis-a-vis the masses listening to his speech. He alone would have the text before his eyes, and the masses would have to simply accept what they would hear from his mouth. Clearly, he would be the intermediary between the people and the law.

Ibid.​

The grave event preceding the narrative concerning the special characteristics of the law is precisely a result of Israel's desire that what Rabbi Hirsch calls a dictatorial mediatorship indeed be the case. In Exodus 20:19 Israel reply that they don't want the fiery words of God to descend on them individually for fear of dying. They specifically call for Moses to be the dictatorial mediator of the law. Let him read it to them and they will accept what they hear from his mouth.

And they said to Moshe: You speak to us; we will listen. But let not God speak with us, for we might die.​

Nevertheless, Rabbi Hirsch reads Exodus 20:19 against the grain of its seemingly clear meaning when he insinuates not that Israel preferred the intermediary of Moses rather than the direct contact with God, but that God established the covenant with them without mediation after all:

The truth of the revelation was secured against all acts of deception, in which people try to turn God's revelation to man into a revelation from within man, God's revelation to Moshe into a revelation from within Moshe, thereby turning revelation into a non-revelation.

The Hirsch Chumash, Exodus 20:16 (which is 20:19 in the KJV).​

This seems deceptive? This seems like double-talk? God's original intent was to speak directly to every individual Jew. The divine language of fire (the plasticity of revelation) would descend not on, or for, Moses to translate/mediate, but on, and for, every individual Jew to negotiate freely for themselves. It's this "freedom" to interpret individually, rather than receive the traditional interpretation from a sage, a religion, or dictator, that Israel undeniable rejected and rejects to this day:

Jesus and his disciples went their way, off the stage of Israel's enduring life, and I would have thought then, and I think now, that Israel was right to let them take their leave. For theirs--- at least in the spectacle of Matthew's picture--- was a message for the individuals, but the Torah spoke to us all. Leave home, follow me; give it all up, follow me; take up your (personal) cross, follow me --- but then what of home, what of family and community and the social order that the Torah had commanded Israel to bring into being?

Rabbi Jacob Neusner, A Rabbi Talks with Jesus, p. 157.

He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter [community or social order] more than me is not worthy of me. And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me. He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.

Matthew 10:37.​

The two quotations above perfectly circumscribe the scene Rabbi Hirsch negotiates when Israel refuses to accept the word of God individually, for fear of having to take up a cross and follow God through the hymen of the morgue. Like Jesus later, so God in speaking to Moses, claims that those who fear losing their life for the word of God, the name of God, will lose it anyway (the grave event that preceeds Moses turning from God with the tablets), while those willing to lose their life by receiving God's fiery word on the tablets of their heart will find true life for the sake of God.



John
 
Last edited:

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
Unless you were with Moses when he conversed with God, and with Paul on the road to Damascus, your statement can only come from the immediacy of an intermediary:

If the tablets of the testimony were written on one side only, the person responsible for reading to the people the laws written on the tablets would be placed in a dictatorial position vis-a-vis the masses listening to his speech. He alone would have the text before his eyes, and the masses would have to simply accept what they would hear from his mouth. Clearly, he would be the intermediary between the people and the law.

The Hirsch Chumash, Exodus 32:15-16.​

The traditions come down from Moses' mouth and pen are the dictatorial authority/intermediary upon which you suppose to judge Paul. But there's another way to engage the spirit of God than through this dictatorial, traditional, orthodoxy. And that's what Paul, and this thread, are all about: a new relationship with God based not on the first Moses, and the second set of tablets, but on the second Moses and the first set of tablets.



John
But Paul had no direct Converse with G-d, has he claimed it, please? Right?
If yes, then kindly quote from Paul like we find in Torah and Quran about Moses, please. Right?

Regards
 

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
But Paul had no direct Converse with G-d, has he claimed it, please? Right?
If yes, then kindly quote from Paul like we find in Torah and Quran about Moses, please. Right?

3 And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven: 4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? 5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks. 6 And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.

Acts 9:3–6.​



John
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
3 And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven: 4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? 5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks. 6 And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.

Acts 9:3–6.​

John
It is a third person narrative of the fake story told by Paul to somebody, not a first person narrative by G-d, I understand. Right?

Regards
 

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
It is a third person narrative of the fake story told by Paul to somebody, not a first person narrative by G-d, I understand. Right?

Again, how do you know it's fake? Were you there? I'm genuinely interested, for the sake of the current argumentation in this thread, how you know the Damascus road narrative as found in Acts chapter 9 is fake?

Also, are you under the impression that God wrote part of the Bible himself? If so, which part? If Moses is just an amanuensis for God speaking, why is he more trustworthy than Luke writing Acts?

Message #7 quoted Rabbi Samson Hirsch speaking about the difference between a mediated message from God versus a direct message from God. Your statement seems to be couched in the nuances of Rabbi Hirsch's concept.

If the tablets of the testimony were written on one side only, the person responsible for reading to the people the laws written on the tablets would be placed in a dictatorial position vis-a-vis the masses listening to his speech. He alone would have the text before his eyes, and the masses would have to simply accept what they would hear from his mouth. Clearly, he would be the intermediary between the people and the law.

The Hirsch Chumash, Shemos, 32:15-16.​

Do you prefer Moses as your dictator rather than Luke? If so, why?



John
 
Last edited:

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
Jesus and his disciples went their way, off the stage of Israel's enduring life, and I would have thought then, and I think now, that Israel was right to let them take their leave. For theirs--- at least in the spectacle of Matthew's picture--- was a message for the individuals, but the Torah spoke to us all. Leave home, follow me; give it all up, follow me; take up your (personal) cross, follow me --- but then what of home, what of family and community and the social order that the Torah had commanded Israel to bring into being?

Rabbi Jacob Neusner, A Rabbi Talks with Jesus, p. 157.

He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter [community or social order] more than me is not worthy of me. And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me. He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.

Matthew 10:37.​

The two quotations above perfectly circumscribe the scene Rabbi Hirsch negotiates when Israel refuses to accept the word of God individually, for fear of having to take up a cross and follow God through the hymen of the morgue. Like Jesus later, so God in speaking to Moses, claims that those who fear losing their life for the word of God, the name of God, will lose it anyway (the grave event that preceeds Moses turning from God with the tablets), while those willing to lose their life by receiving God's fiery word on the tablets of their heart will find true life for the sake of God.

The distinction between Rabbi Neusner's "save the children" versus Abraham's willingness to sacrifice his own child, revolves, as no one has described better than Soren Kierkegaard, around the "teleological suspension of the ethical." Ethics relate man to man. In Rabbi Neusner's world ethics relate the community to God, while the Abrahamic-faith that situates man's relationship to God ----above his ethics-driven relationship to community ----is either non-existent, or must be subordinated to communal responsibility. Ironically, Abraham willingly subordinated the communal ethics to his personal ---individual ----relationship with God, as the very act that founded Abrahamic-faith:

This is a story of madness, of mad economics, aneconomics, a radical and literal case of death-dealing in an economy of sacrifice. Abraham was willing to make a gift of the life of Isaac. Were a man later this week to take his son and head up to the top of the World Trade Center [no longer possible as of 9/11] -- with the intention of offering the boy in sacrifice, we would send a SWAT team in to seize the madman and arrest him for attempted murder, for defying the most elemental command of ethics and the law, which is not to deal in death, above all -- God forbid -- with one's own son.

John D. Caputo, The Prayers and Tears of Jacques Derrida, p.197.​



John
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
The distinction between Rabbi Neusner's "save the children" versus Abraham's willingness to sacrifice his own child, revolves, as no one has described better than Soren Kierkegaard, around the "teleological suspension of the ethical." Ethics relate man to man. In Rabbi Neusner's world ethics relate the community to God, while the Abrahamic-faith that situates man's relationship to God ----above his ethics-driven relationship to community ----is either non-existent, or must be subordinated to communal responsibility. Ironically, Abraham willingly subordinated the communal ethics to his personal ---individual ----relationship with God, as the very act that founded Abrahamic-faith:

This is a story of madness, of mad economics, aneconomics, a radical and literal case of death-dealing in an economy of sacrifice. Abraham was willing to make a gift of the life of Isaac. Were a man later this week to take his son and head up to the top of the World Trade Center [no longer possible as of 9/11] -- with the intention of offering the boy in sacrifice, we would send a SWAT team in to seize the madman and arrest him for attempted murder, for defying the most elemental command of ethics and the law, which is not to deal in death, above all -- God forbid -- with one's own son.

John D. Caputo, The Prayers and Tears of Jacques Derrida, p.197.​

John
" The distinction between Rabbi Neusner's "save the children" versus Abraham "

Abraham never sacrificed any child, so, I understand there is absolutely no room for any meaningful discussion of comparison between Paul- a fake claimant of Prophet, and between Moses- a truthful Messenger/Prophet of G-d, one may and or must say, please. Right?

Regards
 

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
" The distinction between Rabbi Neusner's "save the children" versus Abraham "

Abraham never sacrificed any child, so . . .

Was he just faking God out. You know, pretending he was willing to sacrifice Isaac, going through the motions, just to impress God, although he had no intentions of going through with it? Because God seemed to think he was going to go through with it if he (God) didn't intervene.

What do you think? Would Abraham have gone through with it if God didn't intervene? Or would he have giggled and said, just messin whitcha God. I knew you were testing me so I played along.

What's this seminal narrative all about? Did Abraham change his mind? Was he never really going to go through with it? Or did God stop his hand? And do you think it even matters?




John
 
Last edited:

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
Would Abraham have gone through with it if God didn't intervene?
Abraham knew that God would intervene either before or after. Gen 22:5.

And Abraham said to his young men, "Stay here with the donkey, and I and the lad will go yonder, and we will prostrate ourselves and return to you."​
 
Last edited:

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
Abraham knew that God would intervene either before or after. Gen 22:5.

And Abraham said to his young men, "Stay here with the donkey, and I and the lad will go yonder, and we will prostrate ourselves and return to you."​

We will return to you. Some ask how Abraham could have possibly said this; other say he intended to bring Isaac's bones back with him. But Abraham was simply saying this to them so they would not leave before he came back, and so Isaac would not realize what was happening and run away.

Ibn Ezra.​

Has anyone read Rabbi Samson Hirsch's commentary on the verse? It's gloriously wise and insightful. Made my day just reading it.



John
 

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
Rashi answers:

"ונשובה AND WE WILL COME BACK — He prophesied that they would both return (Midrash Tanchuma, Vayera 22)."

"And we will worship and come back to you (ibid. 22:5). His own mouth foretold him that they would both return in peace.​

Did God tell Abraham to sacrifice his son? Why? Did he (God) know Abraham would rightly judge that God is just testing him so that he (Abraham) thinks, from the get-go, that it's an easy test since God obviously doesn't expect him to go through with it? And he (Abraham) let's us all in on the gag by accidentally revealing that Isaac ain't goin nowhere but up the hill and back down again (Gen. 22:5).

Silly ole Rabbi Hirsch thinks the test is difficult. That, get this, Abraham had full intentions of going through with it. Silly ole Rabbi Hirsch.



John
 
Last edited:

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
yes

Genesis 22:15-18

Or Abraham would go through with it, then God would miraculously bring Isaac back.

Surely Judaism can't have that? That would be both the death of a Jewish firstborn (in this case --the --Jewish firstborn), at the hands of all of Israel (at this time just Abraham) followed by resurrection from the dead on the third day (v.4).

What led the Sages to make the implausible claim that this was the same as$ that Moses rode, and that eventually King Messiah himself will ride on?

Abarbanel.​

Jesus rode to his death at the behest of Israel (more than just Abraham at this point), on the back of the as$ Abarbanel finds implausible that Messiah should ride in on (Matthew chapter 21). He died and was resurrected on the third day.

John the Baptist, Jewish through-and-through, appears to be the only follower of Jesus who knows how Jesus' end will come from reading ahead in Genesis chapter 22. John the Baptist is the only person in the Gospels to call Jesus the "lamb of God" whose death will save the firstborn of Israel (more than just Isaac at this point), through a sacrificial, substitutionary, atoning switcheroo, of biblical proportions (Genesis 22:13; John 3:16). :D



John
 
Last edited:
Top