1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Featured Mosaic law still present?

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by Remté, Feb 15, 2019.

  1. oldbadger

    oldbadger Skanky Old Mongrel!

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2012
    Messages:
    14,347
    Ratings:
    +3,941
    Religion:
    deist
    The first coin is not a Temple Shekel, the second coin might be but it was NOT in circulation when Jesus lived, it looks like a coin struck by the rebels later on.

    You need to review the Tyrian Shekel as struck after that (Tyre) mint closed (19BC) somewhere near Jerusalem./
     
  2. sooda

    sooda Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2019
    Messages:
    6,959
    Ratings:
    +2,140
    Religion:
    Christian
    The first coin is Roman with the head of the Roman Emperor.

    Production of the Tyrian shekel at the Tyre mint occurred 125 - 19 BC. This is the Pre-Herodian temple Shekel tax each Jew had to pay into the sanctuary treasury.

    [​IMG]
     
  3. oldbadger

    oldbadger Skanky Old Mongrel!

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2012
    Messages:
    14,347
    Ratings:
    +3,941
    Religion:
    deist
    Here you go......

    This one looks like the Tyre Mint strike because it is more centred. The Jerusalem mint strikes were crude, but the silver purity and weight was exact, which is all that Rome cared about because it took a cut.

    download.jpg
     
  4. oldbadger

    oldbadger Skanky Old Mongrel!

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2012
    Messages:
    14,347
    Ratings:
    +3,941
    Religion:
    deist
    The head is that of Melgarth Heracles, known to the Jews as Baal, and the absence of KP or KAP on the reverse shows that this was a pre-19BC coin as you have said.
     
  5. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2013
    Messages:
    2,432
    Ratings:
    +170
    That is the problem. Making a fence around "traditions" is the problem. One is supposed to "keep the statutes and the judgments which the LORD your God has commanded me to teach you". The traditions of men, the pen of the scribes, is apparently not acceptable. (Isaiah 29:13)


    Isaiah: 13 Then the Lord said,
    “Because this people draw near with their words
    And honor Me with their lip service,
    But they remove their hearts far from Me,
    And their reverence for Me consists of tradition learned by rote,

    14Therefore behold, I will once again deal marvelously with this people, wondrously marvelous;
    And the wisdom of their wise men will perish,
    And the discernment of their discerning men will be concealed.”
     
  6. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2013
    Messages:
    2,432
    Ratings:
    +170
    You are reaching. Yeshua had no love for the Pharisees or the scribes. Matthew 23:25-27," Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! …. inwardly you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness". Are you saying that Matthew is lying, or that the Roman church changed, or added to what was written, or that the canon is not holy? You foundation of sand, is weak enough without creating greater quakes for your "house" (Matthew 7:27).
     
    • Like Like x 1
  7. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2013
    Messages:
    2,432
    Ratings:
    +170
    And yet the "Christians" of the 4th century still remained with the same Roman coin, with a different head of Caesar, and in the case of the 313 & 326 AD coin, the added advantage of having the sun god "Sol Invictus" on the coin also.

    CONSTANTINE'S SUN GOD COIN: CHRISTIANITY AND THE CULT …
    www.biblicalartifacts.com/items/1330548/CONSTANTINES-SUN-GOD-COIN...
    CONSTANTINE'S SUN GOD COIN: CHRISTIANITY AND THE CULT OF SOL INVICTUS Catalog:Coins:Roman: stock #1330548 This bronze coin showing Sol, the sun god, was minted in small quantities between 313 and 326 AD by Saint Constantine (307-337 CE), the Great—the Roman Emperor known as the "Thirteenth Apostle" in the East.
     
  8. Disciple of Jesus

    Disciple of Jesus Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2011
    Messages:
    19,211
    Ratings:
    +1,580
    It wouldn't matter, because you basically have to argue the texts. In other words, you can speculate anything, then the texts are entirely up for speculation, and you can say there was no crucifixion, so forth. Anything goes if you do that.

    So, that's great, however no one follows that, if they disagree with something, they use the texts.
     
  9. sooda

    sooda Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2019
    Messages:
    6,959
    Ratings:
    +2,140
    Religion:
    Christian
    You really think Jesus was condemning all Pharisees? That makes little sense.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  10. sooda

    sooda Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2019
    Messages:
    6,959
    Ratings:
    +2,140
    Religion:
    Christian
    So what?
     
  11. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2013
    Messages:
    27,869
    Ratings:
    +11,567
    Religion:
    Catholic-- liberal & ecumenical
    There was significant Roman construction in the coastal area just west of Galilee, which created a large part of this disparity of wealth that was largely caused by the effects of inflation. If you had a job working on these Roman projects, you generally would reap benefits, but if you weren't then the effect of inflation ate away at what income you did have.
     
  12. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2013
    Messages:
    27,869
    Ratings:
    +11,567
    Religion:
    Catholic-- liberal & ecumenical
    Exactly, especially since Jesus and Paul were operating from a liberal Pharisee perspective. Paul, upon his arrest, identifies himself as being a Pharisee, and being a Pharisee is a choice.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  13. sooda

    sooda Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2019
    Messages:
    6,959
    Ratings:
    +2,140
    Religion:
    Christian
    “To read Matthew in blissful ignorance of first-century Palestinian sociopolitics is to miss his point. This is the story of Jesus of Nazareth.”
     
    • Like Like x 1
  14. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2018
    Messages:
    1,934
    Ratings:
    +678
    Religion:
    Judaism
    This is a perfect example of straining a gnat while swallowing a camel.
     
  15. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2018
    Messages:
    1,934
    Ratings:
    +678
    Religion:
    Judaism
    All the competing versions of Oral Torah built a fence. Some fences were so far from the Torah that they placed a heavy burden on people, and some were closer in.

    The phrase "to build a fence around the Torah" is itself part of Oral Torah. The opening verse of the Pirkei Avot says that the men of the Great Assembly commissioned their disciples to build a fence around the Torah. Many have said that the rationale for this comes from Deuteronomy 22:8, which states that when one builds a house, he must build a fence around the roof in order to avoid guilt should someone fall off the roof.

    Jesus himself followed this tradition to "build a fence." For example, when talking about murder he forbade anger; when talking about adultery he forbade lust.

    Speaking of Jesus, by his day, virtually all the Oral Torah was set, but a small part of it was still being debated, as you yourself note with your reference to Shammai and Hillel. However, Hillel was only liberal *when compared to Shammai. Objectively both were not liberal. Calling the school of Hillel liberal, is no different than looking at Republicans and neo-Nazis and saying that Republicans are liberal.

    Jesus, btw, was also school of Hillel. It was the school of Shammai, which ruled the Sanhedrin, with which he argued.
     
  16. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2018
    Messages:
    1,934
    Ratings:
    +678
    Religion:
    Judaism
    So its wrong to do business with hookers, but perfectly okay to hang out with them on the street schmoozing? Come now, even Christians understand building a fence. They just use different wording: "Avoiding the near occasion of sin."

    There is simply no way to follow the Law of the Torah, without having Oral Law.

    Let's start with the basics. You can't even read the Torah without Oral Torah. Ancient Hebrew Texts did not have vowels. Yet we know how to pronounce the words. How is that? It is because the knowledge is passed down orally. Christians have their translations from the Hebrew because of Oral Torah.

    But its more than that. The Torah is simply silent on necessary details. It states that we cannot eat meat unless it is slaughtered in a particular way, but it never says what that way is. It is only Oral Torah that describes exactly how to slaughter meat in a kosher manner. How far can one walk on the Shabbat before it is work? What does it mean to bind the commandments on the arm and let them be a sign on our foreheads? On and on and on.

    And God himself gives the manner for Oral Torah to form. In Deuteronomy 17:8-13 the Levites and Elders(Judges/Pharisees/Rabbis) are given authority by God to rules on matters which are not obvious. Not only are we to obey them, we are not even to go "to the right or to the left." Those who question their rulings are to be put to death.

    Even Jesus himself told his followers that the Pharisees sit on Moses' seat, so do and observe EVERYTHING they tell you. (Matthew 23:23) Everything would include Oral Torah.

    So it would appear that God, in some circumstances, SUPPORTS the "traditions of men." (Deut 17:8-13) If it's good enough for God, shouldn't it be good enough for you?
     
  17. oldbadger

    oldbadger Skanky Old Mongrel!

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2012
    Messages:
    14,347
    Ratings:
    +3,941
    Religion:
    deist
    And yours looks like a perfect example of a post that clearly has not studied the early first century Priesthood in Palestine.
     
  18. sooda

    sooda Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2019
    Messages:
    6,959
    Ratings:
    +2,140
    Religion:
    Christian
    Notice this telling comment by Jewish historian Moses Shulvass: “Unlike the Sadducees, the Pharisees opposed a rigid interpretation of the Pentateuch Law. To them, the Holy Writ was a 'living [i.e., flexible] Torah,' valid for all times and never in conflict with the time. By using the God-given power of reason and special methods of interpretation, various Pentateuch laws could be reinterpreted and modified to harmonize with the advanced ideas of each generation”

    snip

    At no time did Jesus question the scribes' and Pharisees' authority as occupants of Moses' seat—and He never condemned anyone for being a Pharisee. But He did challenge their self-righteous piety that lacked the appropriate corresponding works. Thus, Jesus cautioned His followers to shun the scribes' and Pharisees' self-righteous and hypocritical practices.

    In fact, Jesus elsewhere warned that “unless your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees”—who were held in high regard by the Common People—”there is no way that you shall enter into the kingdom of heaven” (Matt. 5:20).

    Christ's message was clear: True righteousness must be based on the heart, the inward spirit, and must spring from a genuine desire to obey God's laws fully, in both their letter and intent.

    Chapter One - Religion in First-Century Palestine
     
  19. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2013
    Messages:
    2,432
    Ratings:
    +170
    Your "shepherds"/judges/leader are to be judged and replaced because they didn't feed the sheep (Ezekiel 34:1-3) and there would be a new judge in town (Ezekiel 34:20-22), for "I will deliver my flock... I will judge between one sheep and another" and that judgment will be with righteousness. As for Deuteronomy 17:8-13, the priest and judges were to judge "according to the terms of the law" not the traditions of men. As for you taking from the script of Yeshua, as for the Pharisees and scribes, he said, do not do as they do, do as they say, for he called them "hypocrites" (Matthew 23:25-35), who will be held responsible for all the blood of all the righteous blood shed on earth. As for your referenced Matthew 23:23:

    Matthew 23:23 King James Version (KJV). 23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone

    As for schmoozing with hookers, I thought you were the one who went to the Netherlands to schmooze with hookers, and justify it by quickly visiting a shul.

    As for keeping the Law, the Israelites did not have your oral traditions, the Talmud, under Moses. As for appointing judges, they were to judge according to the law. As for butchering beef, just drain the blood, because the life is in the blood. As for not working on the Sabbath, it is a sign between God and his people, whereas for 6 days one is to work, and not to work on the 7th. If your "work" is to go to the coal mines 6 days a week, you are to rest on the 7th day. Not brain science. Any targeted nuances were spelled out in the law of God (Exodus 35:3), not the law of man. Apparently, starting a fire for the Israelites was as hard for them as for those on the program called the "Survivors". But it is good that you are reading what Yeshua wrote, but it would be better if you read the entire context, but to be fair, your out of context reference was from Matthew 23:3, not 23:23.

    Exodus 35:3 “ You shall kindle no fire throughout your habitations upon the Sabbath day
     
  20. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2013
    Messages:
    2,432
    Ratings:
    +170
    Matthew 23:24-25 & 35 "Woe you blind guides... Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees...that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth".
     
Loading...