1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Featured Mosaic law still present?

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by Remté, Feb 15, 2019.

  1. Remté

    Remté Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2019
    Messages:
    953
    Ratings:
    +189
    Does the Mosaic law have a relevance in today's society (anywhere or everywhere)? Did Jesus do away with it?

    Here's one of those bible webpage articles: (it's long and you find more at the web page, I died blue the short part at the beginning that caused me to post this.) I find this idea proposed a bit absurd. Jesus didn't change the fundamental nature of man.
     
  2. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2013
    Messages:
    2,430
    Ratings:
    +170
    Well, as Paul is a false prophet, under the heading of Matthew 7:15-20, you can toss that babel/babble, and what you are left with is that you must keep the commandments to enter into life (Matthew 19:17). As for when will they "keep My statutes", that is when the stick of Ephraim is joined with the stick of Judah (Ezekiel 37:15-24), which will be after "Har-Magedon", the "valley of YHWHs judgment" (Joel 3:2 & 12).
     
  3. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2013
    Messages:
    27,628
    Ratings:
    +11,376
    Religion:
    Catholic-- liberal & ecumenical
    The Mosaic Law is only binding on Jews, not Gentiles, and since the vast majority of Christians are Gentiles, ...
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Winner Winner x 1
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
  4. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2013
    Messages:
    2,430
    Ratings:
    +170
    "Fear God and keep His commandments, because this applies to every person" (Ecclesiastes 12:13).
     
  5. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2014
    Messages:
    4,586
    Ratings:
    +2,044
    Religion:
    Jewish
    Sure -- the laws that apply to all people apply to all people. But the Mosaic covenant doesn't apply to all people. There are all sorts of verses that explain that the laws discussed in the desert were between God and the Children of Israel. The Noachide code was on all mankind -- these are the commandments that all must keep, every person.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  6. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2013
    Messages:
    2,430
    Ratings:
    +170
    Get real, the "Noachide code" is the product of the lying pen of the scribes (Jeremiah 8:8), the Talmud, and you will not find it in the "Law and the prophets". And Ecclesiastes 12:13 is quite clear that "every person should fear God and keep the commandments". As for the "house of Israel", they are as the sands of the sea (Hosea 1:10), where do you think they are, the dark side of the moon, being supplied by the Chinese? Or are you wiser than Solomon? The commandments to be kept according to Yeshua, per Matthew 19:18, were quoted from the 10 Commandments, not from lying pen of the "scribes" (Jeremiah 8:8), the Talmud.

    Hosea 1:10
    Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.
     
    #6 2ndpillar, Feb 15, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2019
  7. Tumah

    Tumah Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2013
    Messages:
    10,694
    Ratings:
    +7,074
    Religion:
    Mega-Super-Ultra-Orthodox Judaism
    Why do you assume that the author of Eccl. was speaking to the world at large and not just to his nation?
     
  8. Tumah

    Tumah Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2013
    Messages:
    10,694
    Ratings:
    +7,074
    Religion:
    Mega-Super-Ultra-Orthodox Judaism
    Hosea 1:10 is a messianic prophecy that has not occurred yet, so it's not clear why you are bringing a proof of your position from there.
     
  9. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2013
    Messages:
    2,430
    Ratings:
    +170
    Ecclesiastes address is "to every person". His statement isn't to "every person of Israel". The covenant/Commandments applies to "foreigners"/Gentiles, as well (Isaiah 56:6).
     
  10. Tumah

    Tumah Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2013
    Messages:
    10,694
    Ratings:
    +7,074
    Religion:
    Mega-Super-Ultra-Orthodox Judaism
    So like, when I was in school and my teacher said, "everyone has to hand in their assignments by tomorrow", he actually meant, everyone in the whole world and not the company to whom he was directing his statement. I've misunderstood all these years.
     
  11. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2013
    Messages:
    2,430
    Ratings:
    +170
    The present, near future event, will not be as in Hosea 1:10, but will be with respect to a remnant of the numbering like the sand of the sea. You will have the "many", and then they will be the "few", a remnant. The large number exist now, "scattered among the nations" (Ezekiel 36:19). They will have to come through "Jacob's distress" (Jeremiah 30:7), where "I will chasten you justly" (Jeremiah 30:11), where only 1/3 will come through the refining fire (Zechariah 13:8-9), be gathered to the land I gave to Jacob, and have "one leader".

    Isaiah 10: 21 A remnant will return, a remnant of Jacob, to the Mighty God. 22Though your people, O Israel, be like the sand of the sea, only a remnant will return. Destruction has been decreed, overflowing with righteousness. 23For the Lord GOD of Hosts will carry out the destruction decreed upon the whole land.…
     
  12. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2013
    Messages:
    2,430
    Ratings:
    +170
    Was he addressing "everyone in the whole world", "every person", or was he addressing your class?

    Do you think that "God will bring every act to judgment everything which is hidden, whether it is good or evil", (Ecclesiastes 12:14) only with respect to the nation of Israel? No, his last valley of judgment (Joel 3:2 & 12) & Revelation 16:16), will be targeted with respect to the nations, whereas Jacob will also be judged (Jeremiah 30:11). They will be judged according to how they treated their neighbors, whether they be "My inheritance Israel" (Joel 3:2), or their foreclosing on the widow next door. The Noachide laws are simply the traditions of men, the lying pen of the scribes (Jeremiah 8:8). The Judges of Israel, the "shepherds of Israel", the scribes, were to be replaced by a righteous judge, because they did they feed the sheep (Ezekiel 34:1-24). As for the fat and strong, "I will destroy" (Ezekiel 34:16).
    .
     
    #12 2ndpillar, Feb 16, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2019
  13. Tumah

    Tumah Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2013
    Messages:
    10,694
    Ratings:
    +7,074
    Religion:
    Mega-Super-Ultra-Orthodox Judaism
    Are you actually reading the passages you're pulling these verses out of?
    The same verse that you are pulling from Hosea, testifies that the prophecy hasn't happened. Do the people who used to say that we are not G-d's nation now say that we are? No. This verse has not yet happened.
    Isa. 10:21 is talking about the remnant of the Northern Kingdom of Israel, not of the entire nation. See 2 Chron. 30. Practically the whole chapter is talking about the Assyrians. How do you even come to this conclusion.
     
  14. Tumah

    Tumah Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2013
    Messages:
    10,694
    Ratings:
    +7,074
    Religion:
    Mega-Super-Ultra-Orthodox Judaism
    He didn't specify, but like King Solomon, he was facing us.

    You misunderstand. There may very well be parts throughout the Tanach that deal with other nations. It's even possible that Solomon or other Tanach authors could teach the Jewish people about things that will happen to other nations. But those passages need to express that. In the case of Eccl. 12:13, he speaks about following the commandments of G-d. But - unless you believe in the Noahide Laws - non-Jews never received any commandments from G-d. Moses is continuously told to "command the children of Israel", not "teach the nations of the world". Solomon could not be telling you to follow commandments that you were not commanded.
    Now, if you believed that G-d did give commandments to Adam and Noah, and that those commandments to mankind were preserved, like the rest of the Law we received from G-d, by the Jewish people for any gentiles interested, then I would have to take a step back and agree. That's a different story, because obviously now the verse is saying that each people should follow the commandments that they were given. But if you're going to quote some out of context verses at me from Jeremiah, then I really don't see any place for you to stick yourself into Eccl.
     
  15. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2013
    Messages:
    2,430
    Ratings:
    +170
    Oh, I am sorry, I didn't know you were with Solomon while he was writing Ecclesiastes. Who else was with you when you were with Solomon? I think we will need a 2nd or 3rd witness to confirm your account (Deuteronomy 19:15).
     
  16. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2013
    Messages:
    2,430
    Ratings:
    +170
    After YHWH/s valley of judgment (Joel 3:2 &12), the nations will ask a Jew to be able to go along with them to attach themselves to God. Israel was chosen to be a light to the nations. (Isaiah 49:6) You apparently neither understand the Law and the prophets, nor the message of the prophet of Israel, Yeshua. You follow the lying pen of the scribes (Jeremiah 8:8), and the "Christians"/Gentiles follow their false prophet, the Pharisee Paul. I will also give you the context for Jeremiah 8:8 as follows. It doubles down on the shame of the Jews due to the "lying pen of the scribes". It is apparently almost time for Judah/Jews and Ephraim to "acknowledge their guilt" (Hosea 5:15), for the "LORD" is coming to judge "the shepherds of Israel" (Ezekiel 34:1-24). At that time, there will be one leader (Ezekiel 34:23). But that is all right, pretend you know something, when your multiplication of your own words betray you.(Proverbs 10:9)

    Jeremiah…7 Even the stork in the sky knows her appointed seasons. The turtledove, the swift, and the thrush observe their time of migration, but My people do not know the requirements of the LORD. 8How can you say, ‘We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us?’ But in fact, the lying pen of the scribes has produced a deception. 9The wise will be put to shame; they will be dismayed and snared. They have rejected the word of the LORD, so what wisdom do they really have?…

    New American Standard Bible Zechariah 8:23
    "Thus says the LORD of hosts, 'In those days ten men from all the nations will grasp the garment of a Jew, saying, "Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you."'"

    Isaiah 49:6 6he says: "It is too small a thing for you to be my servant to restore the tribes of Jacob and bring back those of Israel I have kept. I will also make you a light for the Gentiles, that my salvation may reach to the ends of the earth."

    New American Standard Bible Proverbs 10:9
    When there are many words, transgression is unavoidable, But he who restrains his lips is wise.
     
    #16 2ndpillar, Feb 16, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2019
  17. Disciple of Jesus

    Disciple of Jesus Master of the Magicians

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2011
    Messages:
    19,211
    Ratings:
    +1,580
    Religion:
    Sorceror Christian
    The Mosaic law didn't mean the same thing to the early Xians, as to the jews, 'jews' delineation, in the Bible.

    So, acts of the Apostles, book of Galatians,

    Good examples of this, for textual clarity.
    Now, although the book of Galatians is different from acts of the Apostles, the concepts, are the same.

    In other words, the nt isn't actually in the pretext of 'ending the mosaic law because of Jesus', it is in the context that some of the laws weren't supposed to be there, in the first place. This generally doesn't seem understood, in much if xianity. [Even though the text does explain this.

    What the nt doesn't explain is the details, like why did they think the priests were worshipping angels, what angels, other g-ds, fallen angels, whatever, however the concept itself, is quite clear.

    I would personally say that as far as I know, this doesn't mean all the laws, that are often associated with the 'mosaic law', just some.
    We get some explanation for this because Timothy, for example argues from the side of being correct with Moses, just saying those priests were wrong. Same concept in Galatians, however Galatians is more absolute, it seems. This could merely be because the books are written in a different manner, generally they agree, in idea, on this.

    ///what this means, is Xians don't follow the mosaic laws, but this can vary, many xians traditionally have followed certain rules, so forth.

    Xianity itself being in different regions, the churches varied in this understanding.
     
    #17 Disciple of Jesus, Feb 16, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2019
  18. Shaul

    Shaul Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2016
    Messages:
    2,127
    Ratings:
    +733
    Religion:
    Judaism
    In Matthew Jesus said not even the smallest dot of the Law would pass until all things (prophecy) had been accomplished. They all haven’t.

    Antinomianism is a perennial error in Christendom which returns again and again.
     
  19. Tumah

    Tumah Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2013
    Messages:
    10,694
    Ratings:
    +7,074
    Religion:
    Mega-Super-Ultra-Orthodox Judaism
    Are you saying that you actually inherited the Book of Eccl. from the gentiles living in Lebanon who received it from Solomon?
    My mistake then.

    ...are you planning to bring me to court, that this should be relevant?


    This has not happened yet.

    You mean Isaiah.
    One of us doesn't that's for sure.

    Yeshua was a High Priest of Israel during the time of Ezra. There is no evidence that he was a prophet.

    The lying pens of the scribes were claiming that sacrifices will save the nation from the impending Assyrian invasion. I'm pretty sure I'm not following the lying pens of the scribes.

    There are many things Paul may have been, but a Pharisee is not one of them.

    So, where's the context then?

    It is apparently almost time for Judah/Jews and Ephraim to "acknowledge their guilt" (Hosea 5:15),[/quote]
    Sounds good to me.

    We eagerly await that time.

    You're misinterpreting verses and quoting them out of context and you think I'm the one who's pretending to know something?

    Is this the context you were trying to add? I hope not.

    This is the wrong verse from Isaiah. The quoted verse is referring to Isaiah himself. You want Isa. 60:3. Unless you think that "in those days" 10 people are going to grab Isaiah's garment?

    Although Solomon was writing this for Jews, I'm happy to share this wise bit of advice with you.
     
  20. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2013
    Messages:
    2,430
    Ratings:
    +170
    Isaiah is the prophet of God, speaking the Word of God. The Word of God was with respect to "My Servant Israel" not my servant Isaiah (Isaiah 49:3).


    New American Standard Bible Isaiah 49:3
    He said to Me, "You are My Servant, Israel, In Whom I will show My glory."
     
Loading...