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Mormonism????

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by joecrawford815, May 7, 2006.

  1. joecrawford815

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    Do you guys have a problem with me aruguing a point?

    And to all of you who think that I just go to anti-Mormon sites, you are the ones who are mis informed. I have gotten the majority of my information from 3 sources
    1. Mormon.org (or LDS.com) one of the official church websites
    2. Ex-Mormons, one of which is now my youth pastor. He was mormon until he was 11. He went to seminary for a while and practiced his entire life. He knows his crap.
    3. Current practicing Mormons, my friends, I have over 15 Mormon friends and I ask them questions, and will tell them I think their wrong (their religion) and cite Biblical references. I talk to them and have picked up quite a bit of info. My freshman soccer coach was Mormon, boy did we have some discussions.

    Please don't discredit my arguements because you think I hav faulty info. Prove me wrong, trust me I want you to. I am intrigued by debate, and was on the assumption that this was a debate forum. Sorry if I was wrong...

    Becky I thought you were going to mees with my head please do so. And I apologized for being overly harsh and judging, not for disagreeing with your belief.
     
  2. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    No, we don't. We're used to your kind. What we object to is (1) your misrepresenting and distorting what we actually believe and (2) listing so many points in a single thread that it makes posting an adequate reply very difficult. It's far easier to criticize than it is to explain one's position.

    Just out of curiousity, I'm wondering if you would mind just answering the following four very simple questions:

    1. How old are you?
    2. Where did you get your information on Mormonism? (Be as specific as possible, please.)
    3. What church, if any, do you attend?
    4. Have you ever read the Book of Mormon from cover to cover or attended an LDS worship service?
     
  3. joecrawford815

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    1. 17
    2. Listed above
    3 Valley Life Center, Assemblies of God.
    4. No, but I have read most of 1 and 2 Nephi.

    I love how you jump on me for judging your beliefs but judge me for arguing and say 'we are used to your kind.' Log, sliver think about it.
     
  4. SoyLeche

    SoyLeche meh...

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    Your youth pastor does realize that seminary is for High School aged kids - starting around 14 or 15. I wouldn't put too much faith in what he tells you about the LDS church.
     
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  5. Green Gaia

    Green Gaia Veteran Member

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    This is a debate forum, and we do ecourage respectful debate. But I don't call, "Prove you're a Christian to me," to be a debate - more like harassment.

    If you want to ask the LDS Christians here questions, that's fine but we do not require anyone here to prove their faith and the rash of people expecting the LDS members to do this over and over is tiresome.
     
  6. SoyLeche

    SoyLeche meh...

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    That one's easy - none of those scriptures says anything about Baptism for the Dead - but 1 Corrinthians 15:29 does. Paul knew what it was, and didn't condemn it.
    I'm not sure what you are talking about here. That isn't something we practice.
    John 3:16 - Christ is the Son of God. That makes him a child of God. The concept of a Mother in Heaven isn't mentioned in any of our scriptures either, but follows logically. The "Brother of Satan" thing probably deserves it's own thread, and probably already has it.
    James 1:22-25
    James 2:17-18
    Romans 8:16-17
    Do you have any proof of the statement you made about the 8 witnesses? I doubt it. None of them ever did anything of the sort.

    There are manuscripts, and there have been fulfilled prophecies
    Joseph finally was able to convince them that it was a fools errand. He never claimed to be perfect.
    -Old Testament
    -New Testament
    I'm sure you can do better than that. Are we going to be trading scriptures that support our positions for a while? Just need to know what I'm getting into.
     
  7. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    www.mormon.org would be a valid website. Hardly any of the information you posted, however, would be found on that site.

    Yes, he obviously knows a great deal of crap. Ex-Mormons are about as reliable a source of information on the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as Judas Iscariot would be on Christianity as a whole. If he told you he "went to Seminary for quite a while," I'd suggest you take the rest of his "crap" with a grain of salt. Eleven-year-olds don't attend Seminary, Joe. Not even the really bright ones. At the age of eleven, most LDS kids couldn't do much more than recite the Articles of Faith and tell you, in very general terms, what they mean.

    I think you'd better listen a bit more carefully the next time you talk to them. Obviously, you didn't get your facts right the first time around.

    Okay, if you want to debate, pick one topic and post a thread stating why you believe that one issue excludes Mormons from the family of Christians. But don't expect us to try to cover eight issues in a single thread. I'm intrigued by debate, too. And probably a tad more experienced than you are. I hope you're up to it.

    Sorry, I think you meant to address this statement to me -- Katzpur. I'd be happy to debate you -- under the terms I've described.
     
  8. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    Good answer, SoyLeche.

    Here's how Squirt explained it to Adstar:

    We believe that all of Gods sons and daughters existed as spirit beings prior to receiving mortal bodies and being born on this earth. We lived with Him, knew Him and worshipped Him. Because we were all God's children, we were consequently all brothers and sisters. Lucifer, one of God's most beloved sons, was one of these spirits.

    Jesus Christ, God's firstborn spirit Son was unique among all of His Father's children. Like the Father, He had every divine attribute His Father had. He was perfect in every way and was of one mind and heart with His Father. But, even though He was Himself "God," He was also the Son of God, and therefore a spirit brother to all of God's other children -- including Lucifer and those who joined with him in rebellion against their Father.
     
  9. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    By the way, there was also a one-on-one debate between Squirt and FerventGodSeeker on baptism for the dead, which covers this topic in great detail.
     
  10. Booko

    Booko Deviled Hen

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    Whoa I missed that. The youth pastor was a Mormon until he was 11, but he practiced his entire life? Uh...sorry, but 11 years isn't much of a life really.

    That's about the time most kids start to enter into the age of reason for goodness' sake, which is why you see religions having ceremonies to usher the youth into "adulthood" in a faith around 13 or so.

    I must be reading something wrong here.
     
  11. joecrawford815

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    Soy Leche thank you for you response, that is what I wanted, Biblical truth and references!! But I have a question concerning the Baptism thing. So let's set up a situation. I am an agnostic and I die in a car crash. My mormon friends would then have someone baptized (as me) in the Name of Christ and I would recieve ressurection and entrance into heaven?
     
  12. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    :biglaugh: I didn't notice that either! He was a Mormon until he was 11, but practiced it his entire life? What in the world does that even mean?
     
  13. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    You would be resurrected and allowed into Heaven whether you received the ordinance of baptism by proxy or not.
     
  14. joecrawford815

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    Huh???? The Bible says that those who do not know God will not go to Heaven but to Hell. This doesn't make sense. Please explain.

    And sorry about the uth pastor sentence thing. And I was wrong, he was through high school. Please do believe this, he lived in taiwan until he was 11. Yeah sorry bad sentence. oops.
     
  15. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    Would you start by quoting chapter and verse? That would be helpful.
     
  16. Abram

    Abram Abraham

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    Only because this can of worms has been opened I want to know more. I agree with Joe on this case. In fact it has been on my mind for a while. I've been trying to become LDS for years. But I can buy into all the doctrine. LDS members seem to walk the talk(this is good). Follow Christ. So in that regards to that, yes to being Christian. Katzpur can make it all make sense, then I end up at their service or talking with other LDS members and it all turns in to a fantasy to me. Jesus and the devil are brothers? We become Gods of our own? A higher heaven? Joseph Smith?

    I'm not saying LDS is wrong! But I would agree that down to brass tax a Mormon is a Christian as much as a Christian is a Mormon.

    -one question at a time
    As I understand you don't worship Jesus, is this correct? You only worship the father?
     
  17. DeadVegas

    DeadVegas Member

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    I can't exist in a universe where President Bush can become a God.
     
  18. Booko

    Booko Deviled Hen

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    <whew> Oh good, I knew there had to be some mistake there. Thanks for clearing that up.
     
  19. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    Read post #68 on this thread.

    See my next post for a detailed response.

    Uh... yes. Why not. Stephen spoke of "the third heaven." Why would he have done that if there were not also a first and a second heaven?

    What about him?

    No, we worship "God." The Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are "God." It would be impossible to worship one of them without also worshipping the others. We direct our prayers to the Father, because that is what Jesus asked us to do. But we close our prayers in His name, because He is our mediator with the Father.
     
  20. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    The Latter-day Saints are frequently accused of believing that they can, at some point in the future, become "Gods." Understandably, to many who do not fully understand our doctrine, the mere idea is out-and-out heresy.

    Before we really get started, let's clear up two big, big misconceptions:

    (1) We do not believe that any of us will ever be equal to God, our Eternal Father in Heaven. He will always be our God and we will always worship Him.

    (2) Nothing we could possibly do on our own could exalt us to the level of deity. It is only through the will and grace of God that man is given this potential. And "with God, nothing is impossible."

    We believe, as you may know, that ours is a restoration of the very Church Jesus Christ established during His ministry here on earth. It would follow, then, that we believe we are teaching the same doctrines as were taught then and accepted by Jesus’ followers. Throughout the New Testament, there are indications that this doctrine (known as deification or exaltation) is not one the Latter-day Saints invented, but that the earliest Christians understood and believed it, as well.

    Romans 8:16-17, 2 Peter 1:4, Revelation 2:26-27 and Revelation 3:21 are the four I like best. Through these verses, we learn that, as children of God, we may also be His heirs, joint-heirs with Christ, even glorified with Him. We might partake of the nature of divinity and be allowed to sit with our Savior on His throne, to rule over the nations.

    Now, if these promises are true (as I believe they are), what do they all boil down to? To the Latter-day Saints, they mean that we have the potential to someday, be “godlike.” One of our prophets explained that "we are gods in embryo." If our Father is divine and we are literally his "offspring", as the Bible teaches we are, is it really such a stretch of the imagination to believe that he has endowed each of us with a spark of divinity?

    Finally, there is considerable evidence that the doctrine of deification was taught for quite some time after the Savior’s death, and accepted as orthodox. Some of the most well-known and respected of the early Christian Fathers made statements that were remarkably close to the statements LDS leaders have made. For example:

    In the second century, Saint Irenaeus said, “If the Word became a man, it was so men may become gods.” He also posed this question: “Do we cast blame on Him (God) because we were not made gods from the beginning, but were at first created merely as men, and than later as Gods?” At about the same period of time, Saint Clement made this statement: “The Word of God became a man so that you might learn from a man how to become a god.” And Saint Justin Martyr agreed, saying that men are “deemed worthy of becoming gods and of having power to become sons of the highest.” Some two centuries later, Athanasius explained that “the Word was made flesh in order that we might be enabled to be made gods. He became man that we might be made divine.” And, finally, Augustine, said, “But He that justifies also deifies, for by justifying he makes sons of God. For he has given them power to become the sons of God. If then we have been made sons of God, we have also been made gods.” Even today, a similar doctrine is taught in some of the Eastern Orthodox churches.

    Even the noted Christian theologian, C.S. Lewis, said much the same thing in his book "Mere Christianity."

    “The command Be ye perfect is not idealistic gas. Nor is it a command to do the impossible. He is going to make us into creatures that can obey that command. He said (in the Bible) that we were “gods” and He is going to make good His words. If we let Him – for we can prevent Him, if we choose – He will make the feeblest and filthiest of us into a god or goddess, dazzling, radiant, immortal creature, pulsating all through with such energy and joy and wisdom and love as we cannot now imagine, a bright stainless mirror which reflects back to God perfectly (though, of course, on a smaller scale) His own boundless power and delight and goodness. The process will be long and in parts very painful; but that is what we are in for. Nothing less. He meant what He said."

    Finally, according to The Westminster Dictionary of Christian Theology, “Deification (Greek theosis) is for Orthodoxy the goal of every Christian. Man, according to the Bible, is made in the image and likeness of God…. It is possible for man to become like God, to become deified, to become god by grace.”

    So, the "Mormons" really didn't come up with this doctrine. We only restored that which had been lost for many, many years.
     
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