mormonism racist?

[9-10ths_Penguin]

2 seconds on google,
http://emptyeasel.com/2007/06/22/the-color-white-pure-cold-and-clean/

And although it’s probably more of a cultural thing, white is often viewed as the color of moral purity and goodness.

Read the rest of your link. In terms of art (which is apparently what we're going by now), white can imply all sorts of meanings:

- clean
- cold
- uninviting
- sterile
- uncomfortable

also, there are other meanings that they didn't discuss on that page:

- death
- surrender
- cowardice
- fairness (as in "that's mighty white of you", though that connotation has racist derivations itself)

Also, AFAIK, the thing that really made the cultural connection between whiteness and the "purity" or "virginal" nature of something was Queen Victoria's wedding, in which she began the custom of the bride wearing white... but this didn't happen until 1840, and the Book of Mormon was first published in 1830.

 

[Katzpur]

Only for snow, myself. And maybe cocaine.

I already mentioned these two verses from the Bible. Dunemeister didn't like them. Apparently they weren't good enough examples for him. I thought they were pretty good. While they didn't specifically mention "skin," I think it's clear that they refer to "white" as being synonymous for "pure." It's also clear that being "white and pure" is the opposite of being wicked.

You know, as I've read this thread, the one thing I can't help but notice is that everyone who sees the Book of Mormon as being racist attributes that racism to Joseph Smith's personal feelings towards people with a darker skin than he. What it really all gets down to is something that nobody can prove one way or the other: Did Joseph Smith write the Book of Mormon or did he translate it? If he wrote it, it's understandable that people would see his own personal prejudices as being reflected in the pages of the Book of Mormon. Since the Latter-day Saints believe he translated it, arguments that he was racist are beside the point as far as we're concerned. Whether he was or not, we believe he translated what was written, and arguments that he was racist don't even enter into the equation for us.

 

[Watchmen]

It's not my thesaurus. And no, you're mistaken. A thesaurus is a book that lists synonyms. They try really hard to list all of them. So if it's not in the thesaurus, it's probably not a synonym.

You're being intellectually dishonest, but I'll play along.

Synonyms for "white":

pure (vs. impure)
Synonyms for white | Synonym.com

clean, immaculate, impeccable, innocent, pure, spotless, squeaky-clean, stainless, unblemished, unsullied
Synonym white in the Collins English Dictionary & Thesaurus, spelling "white"

After that your post didn't make sense to me. Blood makes something white? In scripture? You'll have to quote me that scripture because I would think blood would make something red. But that's just me.

And you continue to be intellectually dishonest. Have you never heard of symbolism?

Alma 5:21 I say unto you, ye will know at that day that ye cannot be saved; for there can no man be saved except his garments are washed white; yea, his garments must be purified until they are cleansed from all stain, through the blood of him of whom it has been spoken by our fathers, who should come to redeem his people from their sins.

1 Nephi 12:10 And these twelve ministers whom thou beholdest shall judge thy seed. And, behold, they are righteous forever; for because of their faith in the Lamb of God their garments are made white in his blood.

Alma 13:11 Therefore they were called after this holy order, and were sanctified, and their garments were washed white through the blood of the Lamb.

It's clear by these scriptures that white is being used symbolically. It represents the unspotted/pure/immaculate/unblemished condition of those who accept Christ's sacrifice.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

The wonderful people at the racist website Stormfront.org agree that white is a symbol of purity:

There is no set colour for the ranking members of the Klan. Each Klan may have different colours of robes however it is commonly accepted that White depicts purity.

The White Nationalist Field Manual. - Stormfront
The idea that "white" is a symbol of purity and goodness is a cultural thing, I don't think it is universally accepted by everyone especially outside the part of the world with European Puritan/slave-owning roots. I think it is a little thoughtless to say that white is a "synonym" for purity without a comment that this is not universally accepted or even tolerated among people who are sensitive to black history. This symbolism is especially accepted in the racist mindset and it is interesting that the BoM specifically contrasts whiteness (goodness) with dark skin (wickedness).

Watchmen, Katzpur: again I ask you, what does a racist statement look like? What does racist symbolism look like? If you pluck those statements out of the Book of Mormon and put them in some other book written circa 1840, do you really think there are no racial undertones?

 

[rojse]

The wonderful people at the racist website Stormfront.org agree that white is a symbol of purity:The White Nationalist Field Manual. - Stormfront
The idea that "white" is a symbol of purity and goodness is a cultural thing, I don't think it is universally accepted by everyone especially outside the part of the world with European Puritan/slave-owning roots. I think it is a little thoughtless to say that white is a "synonym" for purity without a comment that this is not universally accepted or even tolerated among people who are sensitive to black history. This symbolism is especially accepted in the racist mindset and it is interesting that the BoM specifically contrasts whiteness (goodness) with dark skin (wickedness).

Watchmen, Katzpur: again I ask you, what does a racist statement look like? What does racist symbolism look like? If you pluck those statements out of the Book of Mormon and put them in some other book written circa 1840, do you really think there are no racial undertones?

Oh, dear, Mr Spinkles.

Although Stormfront is a racist organisation, it does not automatically follow that every single thing that they say to support themselves is wrong, although their viewpoint certainly is.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

I didn't say anything Stormfront says is wrong. I'm merely pointing out that the idea of "white" as a synonym for "purity" is compatible with racism, especially when the BoM specifically contrasts this with dark skin. Watchmen and others seem to be suggesting that IF white is meant as a symbol for purity, THEN it is not racist or conveying a racist mentality. Not necessarily.

Even if you say "skin" really is a symbol of a person's inner character, that itself is a racist idea. Put this in the context of 1840s America, perhaps the most brutal, racist, fascist regime in the modern era, and the undertones are clear.

OF COURSE, I am not saying Mormons in general are any more or less racist than me or anyone else, and I applaud the changes the Church made and the honest self-criticism of Katz and like-minded Mormons. But I think it's important to recognize a statement for what it is. If people believed in racist statements, and then they changed their interpretation of the statements without recognizing the racism inherent in them, they haven't learned how to recognize racism/prejudice and the cycle will repeat itself, as it is with LGBT rights as we speak, i.m.o.

Some people can't recognize homophobia because they never learned how to recognize racism, and I mean REAL racism as in the "subtle" kind, not necessarily the cartoonish-supervillain kind we cheer at when a KKK guy is convicted in a Hollywood dramatization. I mean, Katz actually suggested in another thread that, because Joseph Smith ordained a black priest, he could not have been racist or made racist statements or made a racist translation. This is a big mistake: "What I said wasn't racist, because I have a black friend." Um....no.

 

[Watchmen]

The wonderful people at the racist website Stormfront.org agree that white is a symbol of purity:The White Nationalist Field Manual. - Stormfront
The idea that "white" is a symbol of purity and goodness is a cultural thing, I don't think it is universally accepted by everyone especially outside the part of the world with European Puritan/slave-owning roots. I think it is a little thoughtless to say that white is a "synonym" for purity without a comment that this is not universally accepted or even tolerated among people who are sensitive to black history. This symbolism is especially accepted in the racist mindset and it is interesting that the BoM specifically contrasts whiteness (goodness) with dark skin (wickedness).

Watchmen, Katzpur: again I ask you, what does a racist statement look like? What does racist symbolism look like? If you pluck those statements out of the Book of Mormon and put them in some other book written circa 1840, do you really think there are no racial undertones?

1. We have NOTHING to do with the klan.

2. I have shown several verses that show "white" is symbolic. Why do you ignore those?

 

[rojse]

I didn't say anything Stormfront says is wrong. I'm merely pointing out that the idea of "white" as a synonym for "purity" is compatible with racism, especially when the BoM specifically contrasts this with dark skin. Watchmen and others seem to be suggesting that IF white is meant as a symbol for purity, THEN it is not racist or conveying a racist mentality. Not necessarily.

I don't think that there was a disagreement that it might be interpreted in a racist manner.

The disagreement, however, was whether the words were intended when they were written/revealed to be racist or not, and in this regard, the opinion of Stormfront is quite questionable, at best.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

The disagreement, however, was whether the words were intended when they were written/revealed to be racist or not, and in this regard, the opinion of Stormfront is quite questionable, at best.

Fair enough, I'm not claiming anything about intention.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

1. We have NOTHING to do with the klan.

Agreed.

2. I have shown several verses that show "white" is symbolic. Why do you ignore those?

I'm not ignoring them I agree "white" can be used, and was used symbolically and literally--especially by white racists in slave-owning America. What I said was:

The idea that "white" is a symbol of purity and goodness is a cultural thing, I don't think it is universally accepted by everyone especially outside the part of the world with European Puritan/slave-owning roots. I think it is a little thoughtless to say that white is a "synonym" for purity without a comment that this is not universally accepted or even tolerated among people who are sensitive to black history. This symbolism is especially accepted in the racist mindset and it is interesting that the BoM specifically contrasts whiteness (goodness) with dark skin (wickedness).
​

 

[Mr Spinkles]

I suppose I should point out, in regards to the thread title I do not think "Mormonism is racist" is a correct or even coherent statement. (I guess I thought this went without saying). I am just being a stickler on one specific issue, the merit of particular statements from the BoM, and i.m.o. being a stickler is a good idea in this case. What I am saying about the racism of particular statements in the BoM does not necessarily imply anything about the Church, or Mormons, today, or how they interpret those statements.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

And I'm still waiting to hear back from Katz or Watchmen or Apex on what a racist statement looks like, or what racist symbolism looks like, or what a bad translation would look like....

 

[Katzpur]

Watchmen, Katzpur: again I ask you, what does a racist statement look like?

"People with dark skins are stupid." How's that?

What does racist symbolism look like?

I don't know. Nothing comes to mind. If you can think of something you believe would qualify as racist symbolism, you might mention it and I'll tell you if I agree or not.

If you pluck those statements out of the Book of Mormon and put them in some other book written circa 1840, do you really think there are no racial undertones?

Statements "plucked out" of any text and put into some other text could be seen as racist. In the context of the overall message of the Book of Mormon, I believe them to be symbolic.

In one of Joseph Smith's rare, non-racist moments, he translated the following: "For none of these iniquities come of the Lord; for he doeth that which is good among the children of men; and he doeth nothing save it be plain unto the children of men; and he inviteth them all to come unto him and partake of his goodness; and he denieth none that come unto him, black and white, bond and free,male and female; and he remembereth the heathen; and all are alike unto God, both Jew and Gentile." (2 Nephi 26:33) That is what we believe, though sadly it is ignored.

 

[Katzpur]

I mean, Katz actually suggested in another thread that, because Joseph Smith ordained a black priest, he could not have been racist or made racist statements or made a racist translation. This is a big mistake: "What I said wasn't racist, because I have a black friend." Um....no.

I think you're exaggerating what I said, Spinks. Joseph Smith actually made a number of statements that certainly do appear to me to be pretty non-racist. In petitioning the U.S. government to abolish slavery, he said:

"Petition, also, ye goodly inhabitants of the slave states, your legislators to abolish slavery by the year 1850, or now, and save the abolitionist from reproach and ruin, and infamy and shame. Pray Congress to pay every man a reasonable price for his slaves out of the surplus revenue arising from the sale of the public lands, and from the deduction of pay from the members of Congress. Break off the shackles from the poor black man, and hire him to labor like other human beings; for an hour of virtuous liberty is worth a whole eternity of bondage."

At another time he explained that he believed the only reason that blacks were not as culturally and intellectually advanced as whites was the lack of opportunity. "Change their situation with the whites," he said, "and they would be like them."

I realize that you think I'm just being selective in the quotes I've posted, but I am sincerely unaware of any racist statements ever attributed to Joseph Smith. I could actually post a few statements from later LDS leaders that I would personally consider racist, but I'll let you do your own research on that. I am not interested in bad-mouthing any of them, but I personally found some of them pretty disturbing. (By the way, I don't think you'll find more than a couple of them online. Sorry. )

 

[Autodidact]

You can not be serious that you have never heard of white being used as a synonym for pure.

No, white is not a synonym for pure, unless the thing you're talking about is white. White is a color.

white (hw

t, w

t)n.1. The achromatic color of maximum lightness; the color of objects that reflect nearly all light of all visible wavelengths; the complement or antagonist of black, the other extreme of the neutral gray series. Although typically a response to maximum stimulation of the retina, the perception of white appears always to depend on contrast.
2. The white or nearly white part, as:a. The albumen of an egg.
b. The white part of an eyeball.
c. A blank unprinted area, as of an advertisement.

3. One that is white or nearly white, as:a. whites White trousers or a white outfit of a special nature: tennis whites.
b. whites The white dress uniform of the U.S. Navy or Coast Guard.
c. A white wine.
d. A white pigment.
e. A white breed, species, or variety of animal.
f. also White A member of a racial group of people having light skin coloration, especially one of European origin. See Usage Note at black.
g. Products of a white color, such as flour, salt, and sugar. Often used in the plural.

4. Games a. The white or light-colored pieces, as in chess.
b. The player using these pieces.

5. a. The outermost ring of an archery target.
b. A hit in this ring.

6. whites Pathology Leukorrhea.
7. A politically ultraconservative or reactionary person.

Just try a few sentences with the adjective "white" in them and substitute "pure" and see how it works. "I had on black slacks and a pure blouse." "Can I have a gallon of off-pure paint?" "There were two Black guys and a pure guy there."

I'm a native speaker of English, and I would never use "pure" as a synonym for "white." At best, it's horrific translation, akin to Ringrish. Definitely not divinely guided. I would have to toss the whole book out as useless, if that's the general quality of the translation.

 

[Autodidact]

2 seconds on google,
http://emptyeasel.com/2007/06/22/the-color-white-pure-cold-and-clean/

Your link:
The Color White: Pure, Cold, and Clean


Obviously, the three words after the colon are descriptive of what comes before it. White is no more pure than it is cold or clean. It may be "the color of moral purity," but then purple is the color of royalty, and if I'm translating the word "royal," I don't say "purple." That would just be bad translation.

 

[Autodidact]

I already mentioned these two verses from the Bible. Dunemeister didn't like them. Apparently they weren't good enough examples for him. I thought they were pretty good. While they didn't specifically mention "skin," I think it's clear that they refer to "white" as being synonymous for "pure." It's also clear that being "white and pure" is the opposite of being wicked.

You know, as I've read this thread, the one thing I can't help but notice is that everyone who sees the Book of Mormon as being racist attributes that racism to Joseph Smith's personal feelings towards people with a darker skin than he. What it really all gets down to is something that nobody can prove one way or the other: Did Joseph Smith write the Book of Mormon or did he translate it? If he wrote it, it's understandable that people would see his own personal prejudices as being reflected in the pages of the Book of Mormon. Since the Latter-day Saints believe he translated it, arguments that he was racist are beside the point as far as we're concerned. Whether he was or not, we believe he translated what was written, and arguments that he was racist don't even enter into the equation for us.

Exactly. And, going the other way round, the fact that the book does reflect the cultural racism on his day is just one more piece of evidence that he wrote it.

 

[Autodidact]

You're being intellectually dishonest, but I'll play along.

Synonyms for "white":

pure (vs. impure)
Synonyms for white | Synonym.com

clean, immaculate, impeccable, innocent, pure, spotless, squeaky-clean, stainless, unblemished, unsullied
Synonym white in the Collins English Dictionary & Thesaurus, spelling "white"



And you continue to be intellectually dishonest. Have you never heard of symbolism?

Alma 5:21 I say unto you, ye will know at that day that ye cannot be saved; for there can no man be saved except his garments are washed white; yea, his garments must be purified until they are cleansed from all stain, through the blood of him of whom it has been spoken by our fathers, who should come to redeem his people from their sins.

1 Nephi 12:10 And these twelve ministers whom thou beholdest shall judge thy seed. And, behold, they are righteous forever; for because of their faith in the Lamb of God their garments are made white in his blood.

Alma 13:11 Therefore they were called after this holy order, and were sanctified, and their garments were washed white through the blood of the Lamb.

It's clear by these scriptures that white is being used symbolically. It represents the unspotted/pure/immaculate/unblemished condition of those who accept Christ's sacrifice.

Right. I'm pointing out the obvious fact that when your holy book says that Indians have dark skin as a curse from God it's racist, you're twisting like a pretzel to deny the obvious, and I'm being intellectually dishonest. And then, when the pressure mounts against that same church, they suddenly dig up a single edition that used the word "pure" instead, decide that's the "right" one, even though the original, divinely inspired, magic-rocks-and-hat assisted "translation" of a language that doesn't exist reads "white," as do many other passages from the same book. but I'm the one who's intellectually dishonest. Uh huh.

Just as obviously, if I'm translating a book from Spanish, and it has the word "blanco," I translate it as "white." If instead I right, "pure," I suck at translation. That would be the kindest possible interpretation of the story--Smith was a lousy translator.

 

[Autodidact]

I suppose I should point out, in regards to the thread title I do not think "Mormonism is racist" is a correct or even coherent statement. (I guess I thought this went without saying). I am just being a stickler on one specific issue, the merit of particular statements from the BoM, and i.m.o. being a stickler is a good idea in this case. What I am saying about the racism of particular statements in the BoM does not necessarily imply anything about the Church, or Mormons, today, or how they interpret those statements.

I agree.

 

[Autodidact]

"People with dark skins are stupid." How's that?

I don't know. Nothing comes to mind. If you can think of something you believe would qualify as racist symbolism, you might mention it and I'll tell you if I agree or not.

Statements "plucked out" of any text and put into some other text could be seen as racist. In the context of the overall message of the Book of Mormon, I believe them to be symbolic.

In one of Joseph Smith's rare, non-racist moments, he translated the following: "For none of these iniquities come of the Lord; for he doeth that which is good among the children of men; and he doeth nothing save it be plain unto the children of men; and he inviteth them all to come unto him and partake of his goodness; and he denieth none that come unto him, black and white, bond and free,male and female; and he remembereth the heathen; and all are alike unto God, both Jew and Gentile." (2 Nephi 26:33) That is what we believe, though sadly it is ignored.

Well, that's all well and good, but it's entirely consistent with also believing that God cursed Indians with dark skin because of their ancestors transgressions, which the same book says repeatedly, and at length, and which most Mormons, including the prophets and apostles, believed until quite recently.

Again, what's interesting and cool about Mormonism is that it can turn on a dime like this. It can take a basic doctrine, such as that Indians are descended from immigrants from the middle east, and that God cursed them with dark skin because of their transgressions, throw it out the window, and go about its business. That is fascinating. The weird part is that to do this, they have to forget that it was doctrine before, and deny that it ever was. It's like Soviet re-writing of history or something, and fascinating to observe in action.