1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

mormonism racist?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by tomasortega, Jun 1, 2009.

  1. tomasortega

    tomasortega Active Member

    Joined:
    May 28, 2009
    Messages:
    279
    Ratings:
    +11
    was the book of mormon written by a racist? from the passages i have read, it sure looks like it to me

    LDS welcome to explain

    first we have:

    1 NEPHI 13:15 And I beheld the Spirit of the Lord, that it was upon the Gentiles, and they did prosper and obtain the land for their inheritance; and I beheld that they were white, and exceedingly fair and beautiful, like unto my people before they were slain.

    apparently god thinks white people are especially beautiful. now, why would god say something like that when he loves and accepts people of all races? by saying whites are especially or exceedingly beautiful he implies that blacks are not as beautiful as whites.

    second we have:

    1 NEPHI 12:23 And it came to pass that I beheld, after they had dwindled in unbelief they became a dark, and loathsome, and a filthy people, full of idleness and all manner of abominations.


    The Native Americans are the decedents of those "who dwindled in unbelief." As a punishment for their disbelief, their skin was darkened and they became "a filthy people, full of idleness and all manner of abominations."

    third we have:

    2 NEPHI 5:21 And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them

    God cursed the Lamanites (the ancestors of the Native Americans) causing their skin to turn dark and making them "loathsome" to His people.

    fourth we have:

    2 NEPHI 30:6 And then shall they rejoice; for they shall know that it is a blessing unto them from the hand of God; and their scales of darkness shall begin to fall from their eyes; and many generations shall not pass away among them, save they shall be a pure and delightsome people.

    hey guys, there is good news for those filthy native americans. Before many generations pass, Native Americans will convert to Mormonism, their skins will turn white, and they will become a "delightsome" people.

    fifth we have:

    3 NEPHI
    2:14 It came to pass that those Lamanites who had united with the Nephites were numbered among the Nephites;
    2:15 And their curse was taken from them, and their skin became white like unto the Nephites;

    BASICALLY God removed his curse from the "good" Lamanites (the ones that "united with the Nephites"), and they "became exceedingly fair, with skins "white like unto the Nephites."


    here are some facts to go with this.

    in 1954 the us supreme court desegregated all our public schools

    in 1964 we had civil rights laws giving full equality to black americans

    it wasnt till 1978 that the mormon church allowed blacks to participate fully. the headline read this "MORMON CHURCH DISSOLVES BLACK BIAS" "citing new revelation from god, the president of the mormon church decreed that for the first time black males could fully participate in church rites"



    an article further explaining the whole white/dark skin trend found all throughtout the book of mormon


    The Book of Mormon is black and white about skin color.
    White skin is good and "delightsome"; black skin is bad and "loathsome". In fact, God created dark skin just to punish people for their bad behavior.
    And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity ... wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them. And thus saith the Lord God: I will cause that they shall be loathsome unto thy people. 2 Nephi 5:21-22
    This color-coding scheme was designed by God to separate the good from the bad and to keep them forever separate. God will curse the children that result from any "seed mixing".
    And cursed shall be the seed of him that mixeth with their seed; for they shall be cursed even with the same cursing. And the Lord spake it, and it was done. 2 Nephi 5:23
    And the difference between the races is much more than skin deep. God not only darkened the skin of people of color; he made them lazy, wild, and mischievous, as well.
    And because of their cursing which was upon them they did become an idle people, full of mischief and subtlety, and did seek in the wilderness for beasts of prey. 2 Nephi 5:24
    [But people of color shouldn't give up all hope. God's curse can be undone, at least in certain circumstances. An especially well-behaved dark-skinned person may become white and delightsome again! (See 3 Nephi 2:14-16)]
    And readers of this blog should take note: God may cause your skin to darken if you spend your time dwindling in unbelief.
    And the angel said unto me: Behold these shall dwindle in unbelief. And it came to pass that I beheld, after they had dwindled in unbelief they became a dark, and loathsome, and a filthy people, full of idleness and all manner of abominations. 1 Nephi 12:22-23
    But then, that might not be such a bad thing. You'll be loathsome, filthy, lazy, and abominable to God, but you'll get a nice, safe tan out of it!
     
    #1 tomasortega, Jun 1, 2009
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2009
    • Like Like x 1
  2. rojse

    rojse RF Addict

    Joined:
    May 2, 2007
    Messages:
    7,991
    Ratings:
    +706
    Why single out Mormons, tomsortega? I am sure that passages in the Bible could just as easily have been singled out to ask if Christians are racist.

    And what was written several hundred years ago is not necessarily indicative of the beliefs or behaviours of Mormons today.
     
  3. tomasortega

    tomasortega Active Member

    Joined:
    May 28, 2009
    Messages:
    279
    Ratings:
    +11
    1. i have read the bible. there is nothing racist there.

    2. the book of mormon was written less than 180 years ago not several hundred
     
  4. Shahzad

    Shahzad Transhumanist

    Joined:
    May 12, 2009
    Messages:
    177
    Ratings:
    +20
    Yes Mormonism is extremely racist, not long ago blacks couldn't even become ordained. Given that Mormonism originated in 19th century America it's hardly surprising.

    How anyone can still believe in this vile rubbish is astounding.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  5. rojse

    rojse RF Addict

    Joined:
    May 2, 2007
    Messages:
    7,991
    Ratings:
    +706
    I'm not going to take you up on that challenge. I'll leave a more knowledgeable Bible scholar to answer you.

    Regardless of the length of time ago that it was penned, my point still stands - the Book of Mormon is not necessarily indicative of the beliefs or behaviours of Mormons today.
     
  6. tomasortega

    tomasortega Active Member

    Joined:
    May 28, 2009
    Messages:
    279
    Ratings:
    +11
    thanks, im looking forward to biblical scholars showing me racism in the bible. but on another thread please, this one is about mormons.


    to say that the book of mormon is not indicative of a mormon's beliefs is like saying that the koran is not indicative of a muslim's beliefs. or that the old testament is not indicative of jewish beliefs.

    now one can pick and choose what to believe, which obviously modern mormons have done, since they are not practicing poligamy or racism anylonger. but that however does not change their history, heritage, and most importantly, their holy book, which they hold and cherish and, have still not chosen to edit, update etc.
     
    #6 tomasortega, Jun 1, 2009
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2009
  7. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 15, 2004
    Messages:
    37,600
    Ratings:
    +11,045
    Religion:
    Judaism
    Of course, one can cherry-pick the writings of science, rife with the drivel of social Darwinism, or the letters of Abraham Lincoln, or ...

    You, on the other hand, cherry-pick religious text solely to reinforce your presuppositions and anger. It's intellectually dishonest and more than a little adolescent.
     
  8. tomasortega

    tomasortega Active Member

    Joined:
    May 28, 2009
    Messages:
    279
    Ratings:
    +11
    thanks, that cherry picking thing actually brings me to another point. many fundamentalist christians seem to reject the whole big bang/evolution theory in science, but when it comes to science saying that the universe is expanding, they whole heartedly agree, why? because it goes along with their doctrine that everything had a beginning, and that beginning is god

    lets get back on topic though.
     
  9. Dream Angel

    Dream Angel Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2007
    Messages:
    2,490
    Ratings:
    +145
     
  10. Dream Angel

    Dream Angel Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2007
    Messages:
    2,490
    Ratings:
    +145
    hmmm....read my other post and then have a little think about that sentence...
     
  11. Breathe

    Breathe Hostis humani generis

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2008
    Messages:
    17,363
    Ratings:
    +1,773
    Religion:
    Syncretic, Personal Panentheism
    Don't insult the donkey!!! :D

    This is definitely one of the major issues with Biblical literalism, and it often seems as though those who are literalists can end up losing their faith very quickly.
     
  12. rojse

    rojse RF Addict

    Joined:
    May 2, 2007
    Messages:
    7,991
    Ratings:
    +706
    That is what ear plugs are for, Odion.
     
  13. Breathe

    Breathe Hostis humani generis

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2008
    Messages:
    17,363
    Ratings:
    +1,773
    Religion:
    Syncretic, Personal Panentheism
    I don't need ear plugs, I have em built-in. :D
     
  14. Watchmen

    Watchmen Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2008
    Messages:
    5,888
    Ratings:
    +688
    Black men held the priesthood when Joseph Smith was prophet. This is documented.

    Mormons were abolitionists - that's one of the primary reasons they had so much trouble in Missouri.
     
  15. Dream Angel

    Dream Angel Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2007
    Messages:
    2,490
    Ratings:
    +145
    I find it interesting how in the other thread about revelation, tom was accusing Katz of running and hiding...yet he failed to answer my post!! I know for a fact he was online for a good half hour after I posted it!

    Whose running and hiding now?
     
  16. idea

    idea Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2008
    Messages:
    5,875
    Ratings:
    +504
    Religion:
    seeker
    from the other thread

    Here is a pict:
    http://www.the-book-of-mormon.com/maya1-lg.jpg

    tell me what you see - are these people white/dark skinned, OR HAVE THEY PAINTED THEMSELVES - PLACED A MARK UPON THEMSELVES.

    [​IMG]

    are these really two different ehtnic groups (this image found in south America) or are these simple people who have marked themselves to distinguish themselves?

    13 Now we will return again to the Amlicites, for they also had a mark set upon them; yea, they set the mark upon themselves, yea, even a mark of red upon their foreheads.
    (Book of Mormon | Alma3:13)

    18 Now the Amlicites knew not that they were fulfilling the words of God when they began to mark themselves in their foreheads; nevertheless they had come out in open rebellion against God; therefore it was expedient that the curse should fall upon them.
    19 Now I would that ye should see that they brought upon themselves the acurse; and even so doth every man that is cursed bring upon himself his own condemnation.
    (Book of Mormon | Alma3:18 - 19)


    The white and dark skin colors/marks are artificial marks that they put on themselves to distinguish themselves from one another. This is not a racial issue - it is a makeup issue. Who has decided to wear makeup and who does not.

    From the BoM:
    33 For none of these iniquities come of the Lord; for he doeth that which is good among the children of men; and he doeth nothing save it be plain unto the children of men; and he inviteth them all to come unto him and partake of his goodness; and he denieth none that come unto him, black and white, bond and free, male and female; and he remembereth the heathen; and all are alike unto God, both Jew and Gentile.
    (Book of Mormon | 2 Nephi26:33)

    The Nephites and the Lamanites are two different groups of people, two different family lines, who just happen to have two different skin colors. However the mark that was talked about as being a curse - this is makeup, not skin color.

    Consider that at the time the BoM was translated, most of the settlers considered native Americans to be savages &#8211; and the BoM presents them as a civilized society, with Kings, queens, cities, cement roads, etc. etc. etc.


    Let me ask you - is this racial?
    105 Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.
    (Old Testament | Psalms119:105)

    Is this saying only the path of "light" is good? Please - it is talking about day/night - sunlight - lamp. Being able to see light -

    18 And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received asight forthwith, and arose, and was bbaptized.
    (New Testament | Acts9:18)
    you quoted:
    6 And then shall they rejoice; for they shall know that it is a blessing unto them from the hand of God; and their scales of darkness shall begin to fall from their eyes; and many generations shall not pass away among them, save they shall be a pure and a delightsome people.
    (Book of Mormon | 2 Nephi30:6)

    2 Nephi 30:6 has NOTHING to do with race. It is about being able to see clearly what is around you, about being clean from sin, etc. etc. You are the one who is racist if the first thought that entered your mind was balck/white people when reading this. It has nothing to do with black/white people. It has to do with spiritual cleanliness. Black people can be as spiritually clean as white people can be.


    34 And thus we see that the Nephites (lighter skinned race) did begin to dwindle in unbelief, and grow in wickedness and abominations, while the Lamanites (darker skinned race) began to grow exceedingly in the knowledge of their God; yea, they did begin to keep his statutes and commandments, and to walk in truth and uprightness before him.
    35 And thus we see that the Spirit of the Lord began to withdraw from the Nephites(light skin), because of the wickedness and the hardness of their hearts.
    36 And thus we see that the Lord began to pour out his Spirit upon the Lamanites(dark skin), because of their easiness and willingness to believe in his words.
    (Book of Mormon | Helaman6:34 - 36)


    19 And while the angel spake these words, I beheld and saw that the seed of my brethren did contend against my seed, according to the word of the angel; and because of the pride of my seed(light skined people), and the temptations of the devil, I beheld that the seed of my brethren (dark skin) did overpower the people of my seed.
    (Book of Mormon | 1 Nephi12:19)

    would a racist book have an account of dark skinned people overpowering white skinned people????

    27 Which is my word to the Gentile, that soon it may go to the Jew, of whom the Lamanites are a remnant, that they may believe the gospel, and look not for a Messiah to come who has already come.
    (Doctrine and Covenants | Section19:27)
    would a racist book associate dark skinned people (lamanites) with the chosen family - a remnant of the Jews?

    24 But before the great day of the Lord shall come, Jacob shall flourish in the wilderness, and the Lamanites shall blossom as the rose.
    (Doctrine and Covenants | Section49:24)
    would a racist book claim dark skinned people will "blossom as the rose"?

    The BoM is NOT racist.

    The LDS church is a world-wide church with members from all nations/peoples/tongues.
     
    #16 idea, Jun 1, 2009
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2009
  17. idea

    idea Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2008
    Messages:
    5,875
    Ratings:
    +504
    Religion:
    seeker
    Yes, cherry picking the Bible can make the Bible look racist:

    9 &#8230; Jews have no dealings with the Samaritans.
    (New Testament | John4:9)

    28 &#8230; it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation&#8230;
    (New Testament | Acts10:28)

    2 For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God, and the LORD hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself, above all the nations that are upon the earth.
    (Old Testament | Deuteronomy14:2)

    Why are the Jews the &#8220;chosen&#8221; people, why are they &#8220;above all the nations on the earth&#8221; why was it bad for Jewish people to mingle with non-Jewish people???? Sounds soooo racist doesn&#8217;t it? Poor Canaanites, poor gentiles, poor Moabites, etc. etc.

    Different people need different things at different times. The Bible is not racist, distinguishing between different cultures, and different families does not make you racist.

    Take the above in context, and it is not racist.
    9 Then saith the woman of Samaria unto him, How is it that thou, being a Jew, askest drink of me, which am a woman of Samaria? for the Jews have no dealings with the Samaritans.
    (New Testament | John4:9)
    Jesus is not racist, he is talking to everyone.

    28 And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.
    (New Testament | Acts10:28)

    etc. etc.

    Joseph Smith traslated (not wrote - translated) the BoM several hundred years ago. The Nephite/Lamanite records were written 600 BC - 400 AD.

    the Jaredite record was even earlier:
    2700 BC Jared and his friends and family travel to the Americas

    • 2630 BC City of Moron is established
    • 2430 BC Population of Moron is decimated because of wars, thirty survive
    • 2290 BC Built Cities
    • 2160 BC Drought cuts down the population
    • 1070 BC Civil war divides the kingdom
    • 1010 BC Wars, famine, pestilence
    • 740 BC Civil War
    • ~600 BC Final Battle, Ether & Coriantumr only survivors
     
  18. Storm

    Storm ThrUU the Looking Glass

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2007
    Messages:
    44,609
    Ratings:
    +2,361
    Religion:
    UU/ panentheist/ neopagan/ process theology
    No. They have a history of racism, but they've overcome it. They're hardly alone.
     
  19. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2005
    Messages:
    29,887
    Ratings:
    +5,703
    Religion:
    LDS Christian
    I'd rather believe vile rubbish than BE vile rubbish.
     
  20. Shahzad

    Shahzad Transhumanist

    Joined:
    May 12, 2009
    Messages:
    177
    Ratings:
    +20
    Whatever. How many Abrahamic religions have prophets that are explicitly racist in the modern sense (as opposed to merely xenophobic), Mormonism is one of the clear exceptions. Like every other religion it bears the marks of the culture from which it sprung, few cultures were more racist than that of 19th century America.
     
Loading...