Mormon Church has $100 BILLION

[SoyLeche]

And yet tithing does exactly that — it funds the church. Jesus wasn’t a multi-billion dollar organization. Maybe it’s the church that should make sacrifices rather than it’s members.

Like I said - argue that the church should spend the money and give examples of how you'd like to see it done. I'll probably agree with you. Reducing the tithing requirement is a non-starter though, since there are other reasons for tithing than just fund raising.

Jesus didn't seem to have many qualms about people giving to the church in his day. He even seemed to be impressed by the widow and her mite.

 

[Watchmen]

Jesus didn't seem to have many qualms about people giving to the church in his day. He even seemed to be impressed by the widow and her mite.

Like I said, the church back then wasn’t a $100 BILLION dollar corporation.

 

[SoyLeche]

Like I said, the church back then wasn’t a $100 BILLION dollar corporation.

It was pretty rich compared to the population.

I’m not disagreeing with you that 100B is a lot of money and that the church should find something good to do with it.

 

[Watchmen]

It was pretty rich compared to the population.

I’m not disagreeing with you that 100B is a lot of money and that the church should find something good to do with it.

I’m taking it a step further. The church should use its modern revelation through living prophets to change its tithing policies and practice.

 

[SoyLeche]

I’m taking it a step further. The church should use its modern revelation through living prophets to change its tithing policies and practice.

Not going to happen. Tithing is too important a thing for an individual to give.

The answer is that the church needs to spend more on worthy causes - which it should be able to figure out how to do. Just model it on the Gates Foundation.

 

[Watchmen]

Not going to happen. Tithing is too important a thing for an individual to give.

The answer is that the church needs to spend more on worthy causes - which it should be able to figure out how to do. Just model it on the Gates Foundation.

Right. Not going to happen. Tithing is too important for the church to have.

 

[SoyLeche]

Right. Not going to happen. Tithing is too important for the church to have.

Obviously not. They have 100B lying around.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Forget about the individuals in leadership. The organization has $100 billion and asks those with nothing to give 10% or else they can’t receive the fullness of the gospel in the temple. Does that not seem at least a little bit immoral to you?

It seems immoral to me regardless of how much money the LDS Church has.

As much as I complain about the Catholic Church, I think they were on the right track when they made simony a sin:

Simony - Wikipedia

They consider it a grave sin to charge money for access to or sell any sacrament or spiritual benefit. I think this is a reasonable position, IMO.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Obviously not. They have 100B lying around.

Saying "no" to cash isn't how an organization gets to have $100 billion.

 

[SoyLeche]

Saying "no" to cash isn't how an organization gets to have $100 billion.

Yeah - my post was tounge in cheek.

You generally amass 100B by spending less than you bring in and investing the excess well. So, if you think that's a problem, either encourage the organization to bring in less or spend more. In this case, spending more makes more sense to me - as long as the increased spending is on worthy causes.

My best guess is that Watchtower's 7B per year number for tithing receipts is probably in the ballpark (looking at just the US: 7M members, call half of them active, and half of them wage earners making the median individual income, so 1.75M people earning 30K per year, making 5.25B in tithing - maybe a few billion more from Europe. Most of the rest of the world is probably a rounding error).

My guess is that they are spending in the ballpark of 5B - probably less than that - (charity, operations, property management, new construction, education, etc). Don't really have anything to back that up.

They currently give roughly 1B per year to charitable causes. That could easily be doubled, tripled, or more, and I think it should be. They apparently are very careful about how to go about giving the money so that it isn't wasted, but it shouldn't be too hard to figure out how to give more. The Gates Foundation has figured out a way to give away 5B per year, so the church should be able to do the same.

Eliminating tithing is a non-starter though, for reasons already given.

 

[dianaiad]

Forget about the individuals in leadership. The organization has $100 billion and asks those with nothing to give 10% or else they can’t receive the fullness of the gospel in the temple. Does that not seem at least a little bit immoral to you?

Nope. Remember: 10% of nothing is....nothing. 10% of a little is...a little.

I can tell you that...leaving aside the individuals in leadership, I have received a great deal more FROM the church, materialistically, than I have ever contributed, and frankly that makes me feel bad.

As for the amount of the reserve...well, too bad for you. The church does well with what it has, and you don't get to demand that it do what you want with it. Tithing, as soyleche said, is about faith and sacrifice.

 

[Watchmen]

Nope. Remember: 10% of nothing is....nothing. 10% of a little is...a little.

I can tell you that...leaving aside the individuals in leadership, I have received a great deal more FROM the church, materialistically, than I have ever contributed, and frankly that makes me feel bad.

As for the amount of the reserve...well, too bad for you. The church does well with what it has, and you don't get to demand that it do what you want with it. Tithing, as soyleche said, is about faith and sacrifice.

Your personal anecdotes are meaningless. I’m not demanding anything. I’m pointing out the immorality of a $100 BILLION organization insisting its members, even the poorest, pay tithing before being permitted to participate in all the ordinances available for salvation and exaltation.

 

[Watchmen]

For the record, my source for the $7B per year in tithing comes from the WSJ article. I personally don’t know how accurate or not that number is and have not researched it myself.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Perhaps we should agree what the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints does with their wealth is nobody else's business outside the followers and church leaders of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

It is if they're involved in the stock market with for-profit corporations. You can't say that it could possibly be tax-free. There's a reason why organizations are granted nonprofit status. If they involve themselves with for-profit corporations, they should be taxed accordingly.

Let's look at it this way....

https://www.washingtonpost.com/inve...619bd2-2004-11ea-86f3-3b5019d451db_story.html

How in the hell is that even justifiable?

 

[SoyLeche]

Your personal anecdotes are meaningless. I’m not demanding anything. I’m pointing out the immorality of a $100 BILLION organization insisting its members, even the poorest, pay tithing before being permitted to participate in all the ordinances available for salvation and exaltation.

I would have no problem with the tithing question being taken off of the temple recommend interview, and for tithing settlement to be done away with.

the level of the church’s reserves has no bearing on my position though.

 

[SoyLeche]

It is if they're involved in the stock market with for-profit corporations. You can't say that it could possibly be tax-free. There's a reason why organizations are granted nonprofit status. If they involve themselves with for-profit corporations, they should be taxed accordingly.

Let's look at it this way....

https://www.washingtonpost.com/inve...619bd2-2004-11ea-86f3-3b5019d451db_story.html

How in the hell is that even justifiable?

The church has for profit companies and those companies are taxed.

 

[dianaiad]

Your personal anecdotes are meaningless. I’m not demanding anything. I’m pointing out the immorality of a $100 BILLION organization insisting its members, even the poorest, pay tithing before being permitted to participate in all the ordinances available for salvation and exaltation.

Again.

Not your problem.

If WE don't have a problem, you sure don't.

 

[dianaiad]

The church has for profit companies and those companies are taxed.

Yes they are.

And I have NO problem pointing out the sheer hypocrisy of those who belong to religious organizations that also own businesses....and who go to professionals who teach them how to put the BUSINESSES into a non profit status so that they are not taxed...who criticize the CoJCoLDS because it owns businesses that are taxed.

I especially have a problem with people who seem to think that the CoJCoJC should be taxed differently (read...extra and twice, etc.,) BECAUSE it is a religion.

For instance, this supposed $1oo billion...cached away, having been taxed upon acquisition, and somehow people are insisting that it be taxed AGAIN...and again and again and again....simply because there seems to be more of it than 'they' approve of.

...as if the whole idea of taxation is upside down. To 'them,' taxes are about the government owning everything and sometimes allowing private parties to keep some of it after the government is through with them.

When in reality it is about the private person (or organization) owning all the money and the government assessing a certain portion for its needs.

 

[Watchmen]

Again.

Not your problem.

If WE don't have a problem, you sure don't.

I don’t have a problem. I’m pointing out an immoral practice. And you don’t speak for the collective members of the Mormon church. I bet there are many that DO have a problem with it.

 

[Watchmen]

Yes they are.

And I have NO problem pointing out the sheer hypocrisy of those who belong to religious organizations that also own businesses....and who go to professionals who teach them how to put the BUSINESSES into a non profit status so that they are not taxed...who criticize the CoJCoLDS because it owns businesses that are taxed.

I especially have a problem with people who seem to think that the CoJCoJC should be taxed differently (read...extra and twice, etc.,) BECAUSE it is a religion.

For instance, this supposed $1oo billion...cached away, having been taxed upon acquisition, and somehow people are insisting that it be taxed AGAIN...and again and again and again....simply because there seems to be more of it than 'they' approve of.

...as if the whole idea of taxation is upside down. To 'them,' taxes are about the government owning everything and sometimes allowing private parties to keep some of it after the government is through with them.

When in reality it is about the private person (or organization) owning all the money and the government assessing a certain portion for its needs.

What is the source for your claim that the $100 BILLION has already been taxed?