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Featured More than one God in the OT?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Teritos, Apr 9, 2021.

  1. KenS

    KenS Face to face with my Father
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    Yes... you can always find another internet source that says the earth is round.

    Did you ever consider that it was the Canaanites that added Abraham's God to all the other gods they had?
     
  2. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

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    So you say my interpretation is wrong ... why?
     
  3. KenS

    KenS Face to face with my Father
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    Have you considered the possibility that since Abraham lived in Canaan that the Canaanites adopted YHWH as another God as displayed by Abraham?

    Much like in India when so many people just take Jesus as "another" of the many gods?
     
  4. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    See above.
     
  5. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    A good friend of mine studied Hinduism in India, and in one of the houses he visited was a picture of Jesus, along with statues of Shiva and Vishnu.

    BTW, Hinduism is sorta both monotheistic and polytheistic, depending on one's orientation. Gandhi used the name "God" very frequently, especially when speaking English. In Hindi, generally speaking he would use the name "Brahman", which is "God" but has some orientations that sometimes causes confusion in those trying to understand Hinduism from outside the faith.

    If you get a chance, treat yourself to reading the Bhagavad Gita, but make certain the source contains commentary. I'm currently finishing up reading the Upanishads and am enjoying that as well.

    BTW, my favorite cuisine is Indian, and it is highly addictive to the point that our "kids" and even our grandkids are highly addicted to it as well. Ever have it?
     
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  6. Etritonakin

    Etritonakin Well-Known Member

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    It is (which is a yes).

    Most of the stuff in parentheses/quotes are parts of scriptures or contain keywords from scriptures.

    Sometimes I paraphrase, but avoid interpretation or outright guesses and focus on what is clearly stated in many scriptures -considering them all together.

    "line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little, there a little"

    A Christian should have no issue accepting that the terms God, Lord, etc. can include both the Father and the Son -as the NT is where it is explained most -the same for Christ being I AM, the Word and Melchizedek.

    I would imagine believers in only the OT would have greater difficulty.
    If I have time I will add more supporting verses from each with chapter/verse.
     
    #106 Etritonakin, Apr 10, 2021
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2021
  7. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg One Planet One People Please
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    Every Messenger is in Spirit, all the Mesengers who have come before, and who are yet to come, they are one and all the First and One and all the Last.

    They are of the One and only God.

    I like seeing it as the rainbow, pure light refracted in to the multi colours we see.

    Regards Tony
     
  8. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg One Planet One People Please
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    The concept can be seen as simple.

    God is exalted above all names and entry into the physical realm.

    Thus God sends Messengers and in this world God has sent many Messengers with Many Names who have shown us all the Attributes. They One and all are all we can know of the UNKNOWABLE God.

    As such they become the 'Self of God' amongst mankind. They are all born of the Holy Spirit, they are all of the same purpose, they are all One with God.

    The rest, the division lays with mankind and their attachment to the Material realm.

    We humans are also born of one Spirit, the Human Spirit, there is no reason we too can not be in unity as One human race, with one purpose in Spirit. That is to collectively find our redemption in the service of One God and service to each other. First we must accept the Oneness of God in the unity of all God's Names.

    God's Kingdom on earth as it is in heaven.

    Regards Tony
     
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  9. SeekingAllTruth

    SeekingAllTruth Well-Known Member

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    For example, let's take melchizedek. All it says in the OT is this:

    And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the most high God.

    19 And he blessed him, and said, Blessed be Abram of the most high God, possessor of heaven and earth:

    20 And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And he gave him tithes of all.


    So how did you get all that other stuff about Melchizedek being associated with Jesus Christ from such skimpy material? Jesus Christ or messiah isn't even mentioned in those 3 verses. But here's what Wiki says about Melchizedek:

    Association with the Messiah
    The association or identification of Melchizedek with the Messiah predates Christianity, developing in Jewish messianism of the Second Temple period.[citation needed]

    A collection of early Gnostic scripts dating on or before the 4th century, discovered in 1945 and known as the Nag Hammadi library, contains a tractate pertaining to Melchizedek. Here it is proposed that Melchizedek is Jesus Christ.[70] Melchizedek, as Jesus Christ, lives, preaches, dies and is resurrected, in a gnostic perspective. The Coming of the Son of God Melchizedek speaks of his return to bring peace, supported by God, and he is a priest-king who dispenses justice.[71]

    The association with Christ is made explicit by the author of the Epistle to the Hebrews, where Melchizedek the "king of righteousness" and "king of peace" is explicitly associated with the "eternal priesthood" of the Son of God.[72] The Christological interpretation of this Old Testament character being a prefiguration or prototype of the Christ has varied between Christian denominations. The Pelagians saw in Melchizedek merely a man who lived a perfect life.[73]

    Typological association of Jesus Christ with Old Testament characters occurs frequently in the New Testament and in later Christian writings; thus, Jesus Christ is also associated with Adam (as the "New Adam") and with Abraham.[74] The bread and wine offered by Abraham to Melchizedek has been interpreted by church fathers including Clement of Alexandria as being a prefiguration of the Eucharist.[75]

    As you can see from the bold underline it was the Gnostics who associated Melchizedek with Jesus alothough there had been association in OT times. ---
    Wikipedia

    All this has no basis in scripture. It's just ideas and beliefs based on nothing.
     
  10. SeekingAllTruth

    SeekingAllTruth Well-Known Member

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    I haven't been able to find anything that says other than the Jewish YHWH originated among the Canaanites. I just provided numerous sources stating such. I would consider it if you could find a secular historian who said that was the case. Can you find one? I'm willing to read it and consider if you can. Please try.
     
  11. KenS

    KenS Face to face with my Father
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    I couldn't open the first one... but it says "a NEW theory... but still a theory"

    The second says:

    "Why the Yahweh as a Canaanite God Theory Doesn’t Hold Up
    The theory doesn’t hold up for a number of reasons. First of all, scholars are essentially grasping at straws. Most of the theory operates on conjecture. The Israelites lived near foreign peoples and some married foreign peoples, so, therefore, they changed their entire religion based on the influence of those peoples, according to the theory.

    Also, similarly spelled names do not indicate it’s the same God. Although the Canaanites had El, and the Jews had Elohim, and the Edomites had JWH and the Jews had YHWH, it does not conclude that the gods are one and the same."


    I would agree totally with the second paragraph.
     
  12. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

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    I don't see where you even attempt to refute my interpretation. Remember you made the distinction between exegesis and interpretation ... not me.
     
  13. SeekingAllTruth

    SeekingAllTruth Well-Known Member

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    (1) Yahweh was worshiped by the Edomites, and especially by the Kenites, a small tribe regarded as the Canaanite smelters;

    (2) the Israelite cult of Yahweh was associated with copper and with a bronze serpent, a typical symbol of metallurgy; [think Moses in the desert holding up the bronze serpent]

    (3) the melting of copper is considered in Exodus 4 as the specific sign of Yahweh;

    (4) a parallel exists between Yahweh and the god of metallurgy worshiped in Egypt (Ptah), Mesopotamia (Ea/Enki) and Elam (Napir), all of them being a mysterious lonely deity;

    (5) fighting the (other) gods is common to Yahwism and to ancient metallurgical traditions.

    These data suggest that, before becoming publicly worshipped in Israel, Yahweh was formerly the god of the Canaanite guild of metallurgists.
     
  14. Harel13

    Harel13 Am Yisrael Chai
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    "David said to Gad, “I am in great distress. Let us fall into the hands of the LORD, for His compassion is great; and let me not fall into the hands of men.”" (2 Samuel 24:14)
     
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  15. Rival

    Rival Iiu em hotep.
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    I don't know how many folks here are familiar with colloquial Northern English speech, but 'us' is used for a singular all the time. If someone starts making tea I'll likely chime in with 'Make us one!' and I just mean myself. We don't even realise we do this it's so ubiquitous. Languages can be like this.
     
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  16. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    Because there’s a difference between exegesis and interpretation that you don’t see. But it’s there. See post #58.
     
  17. darkskies

    darkskies Active Member

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    I was just making the semantics clear in that post.
    But thanks for the info. :)
    That makes sense.
     
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  18. Teritos

    Teritos Active Member

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    When David said "Let us" it referred to the people, just see the context.
    That you can't show anything better than that just shows me how right I am.
     
  19. Harel13

    Harel13 Am Yisrael Chai
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    That's your interpretation. I can equally say that my interpretation of Genesis 1:26 does not refer to a composite unity deity.
     
  20. Teritos

    Teritos Active Member

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    Then look at the context. In Proverbs 8, Wisdom speaks as a separate person and claims to have created the world with God, so here we have at least "two" creators.

    The OT makes it clear that there is "more than" one creator. One God who is a unity,
    Ecclesiastes 12:1
    Remember also your Creators in the days of your youth.
    Isaiah 54:5
    For your husbands are your Makers, Whose name is Yahweh of armies.
     
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