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Featured More than one God in the OT?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Teritos, Apr 9, 2021.

  1. InChrist

    InChrist Free4ever

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    Yes, the triune God: Father, Son and Holy Spirit revealed throughout the scriptures and more clearly in the NT.

    Even creation testifies...

    “...the triune nature of God is stamped on His creation. The cosmos is divided into three: space, matter and time. Each of these is divided into three. Space, for instance, is composed of length, breadth and width, each separate and distinct in itself, yet the three are one. Length, breadth and width are not three spaces, but three dimensions comprising one space. Run enough lines lengthwise and you take in the whole. But so it is with the width and height. Each is separate and distinct, yet each is all of space—just as the Father, Son and Holy Spirit is each God.

    Time also is a trinity: past, present and future—two invisible and one visible. Each is separate and distinct, yet each is the whole. Man himself is a triunity of spirit, soul and body, two of which are invisible, one visible. Many more details could be given of the Godhead's triunity reflected in the universe. It can hardly be coincidence.“
    The Trinity
     
  2. 1213

    1213 Well-Known Member

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    There are many gods in the Old Testament:

    God presides in the great assembly. He judges among the gods.
    Psalms 82:1

    I said, "You are gods, All of you are sons of the Most High. Nevertheless you shall die like men, And fall like one of the rulers."
    Psalms 82:6-7

    Now it happened on the day when the sons of God came to present themselves before Yahweh, that Satan also came among them.
    Job 1:6

    It happened, when men began to multiply on the surface of the ground, and daughters were born to them, that God's sons saw that men's daughters were beautiful, and they took for themselves wives of all that they chose.
    Genesis 6:1-2

    Person that acts in the name of God, person who has authority from God to act in his name, was called god. Even Moses was called god to pharaoh:

    Yahweh said to Moses, "Behold, I have made you as God to Pharaoh; and Aaron your brother shall be your prophet.
    Ex. 7:1

    Still, there is only one true God in the Bible. Those others are men, or angels.

    This is eternal life, that they should know you, the only true God, and him whom you sent, Jesus Christ.
    John 17:3

    For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
    1 Timothy 2:5
     
  3. SeekingAllTruth

    SeekingAllTruth Well-Known Member

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    yahweh WAS a Canaanite god.
     
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  4. It Aint Necessarily So

    It Aint Necessarily So Well-Known Member
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    Sorry to disagree with you Tony, but there is nothing in that book that was beyond the ability of human beings to write, which is true of every book ever written. If you think otherwise, produce a biblical passage that you or I couldn't have written.

    Let's look a some randomly chosen passages, shall we, and you tell me which one of these couldn't have been written by anybody including me, you, and your next door neighbor:

    Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
    Genesis 2:2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
    Genesis 3:3 But God did say, ‘You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.’”
    Genesis 4:4 And Abel also brought an offering—fat portions from some of the firstborn of his flock. The Lord looked with favor on Abel and his offering
    Genesis 5:5 Altogether, Adam lived a total of 930 years, and then he died.
    Genesis 6:6 The Lord regretted that he had made human beings on the earth, and his heart was deeply troubled.
    Genesis 7:7 And Noah and his sons and his wife and his sons’ wives entered the ark to escape the waters of the flood.
    Genesis 8.8 Then he sent out a dove to see if the water had receded from the surface of the ground.
    Genesis 9.9 I now establish my covenant with you and with your descendants after you

    Or pick your own passages to demonstrate that these scriptures couldn't have been written by human beings. How is biblical scripture better than the Iliad (you asked me to produce a book)? These citations actually read better:

    “There is the heat of Love, the pulsing rush of Longing, the lover’s whisper, irresistible—magic to make the sanest man go mad.” ― Homer, The Iliad
    “Hateful to me as the gates of Hades is that man who hides one thing in his heart and speaks another.” ― Homer, The Iliad
    “Any moment might be our last. Everything is more beautiful because we're doomed. You will never be lovelier than you are now. We will never be here again.” ― Homer, The Iliad
    “Let me not then die ingloriously and without a struggle, but let me first do some great thing that shall be told among men hereafter.” ― Homer, The Iliad
    “Sing, O muse, of the rage of Achilles, son of Peleus, that brought countless ills upon the Achaeans.” ― Homer, The Iliad
    “Like the generations of leaves, the lives of mortal men. Now the wind scatters the old leaves across the earth, now the living timber bursts with the new buds and spring comes round again. And so with men: as one generation comes to life, another dies away.” ― Homer, The Iliad

    A nineteenth century atheist. You're free to look that up, but does it matter? His comment remains valid whoever said them.

    Here are some more words from him that I have saved:

    "We have heard talk enough. We have listened to all the drowsy, idealess, vapid sermons that we wish to hear. We have read your Bible and the works of your best minds. We have heard your prayers, your solemn groans and your reverential amens. All these amount to less than nothing. We want one fact. We beg at the doors of your churches for just one little fact. We pass our hats along your pews and under your pulpits and implore you for just one fact. We know all about your moldy wonders and your stale miracles. We want a this year's fact. We ask only one. Give us one fact for charity. Your miracles are too ancient. The witnesses have been dead for nearly two thousand years "- Ingersoll

    "The liberty of man is not safe in the hands of any church. Wherever the Bible and sword are in partnership, man is a slave" - Robert Green Ingersoll

    "An infinite God ought to be able to protect himself without going in partnership with state legislatures. Certainly he ought not so to act that laws become necessary to keep him from being laughed at. No one thinks of protecting Shakespeare from ridicule, by the threat of fine and imprisonment." - Robert Green Ingersoll

    "Do you not know that every religion in the world has declared every other religion a fraud? Yes, we all know it. That is the time all religions tell the truth--each of the other." ~ Robert G. Ingersoll

    "RELIGION IS FEAR AND SLAVERY
    What, after all, is religion?
    It is fear.
    Fear builds the altar and offers the sacrifice.
    Fear erects the cathedral and bows the head of man in worship.
    Fear bends the knees and utters the prayer.
    Fear pretends to love.
    Religion teaches the slave-virtues -- obedience, humility, self-denial, forgiveness, non-resistance.
    Lips, religious and fearful, tremblingly repeat this passage: "Though he slay me, yet will I trust him." This is the abyss of degradation.
    Religion does not teach self-reliance, independence, manliness, courage, self-defence. Religion makes God a master and man his serf. The master cannot be great enough to make slavery sweet." -- Robert Green Ingersoll

    MINISTERS WONDER HOW I CAN BE WICKED ENOUGH TO ATTACK THE BIBLE - Robert Green Ingersoll (1833-1899)
    "I will tell them:

    "This book, the Bible, has persecuted, even unto death, the wisest and the best. This book stayed and stopped the onward movement of the human race. This book poisoned the fountains of learning and misdirected the energies of man.

    "This book is the enemy of freedom, the support of slavery. This book sowed the seeds of hatred in families and nations, fed the flames of war, and impoverished the world.

    "This book is the breastwork of kings and tyrants -- the enslaver of women and children. This book has corrupted parliaments and courts. This book has made colleges and universities the teachers of error and the haters of science.

    "This book has filled Christendom with hateful, cruel, ignorant and warring sects. This book taught men to kill their fellows for religion's sake.

    "This book funded the Inquisition, invented the instruments of torture, built the dungeons in which the good and loving languished, forged the chains that rusted in their flesh, erected the scaffolds whereon they died. This book piled fagots about the feet of the just. This book drove reason from the minds of millions and filled the asylums with the insane.

    "This book has caused fathers and mothers to shed the blood of their babes. This book was the auction block on which the slave-mother stood when she was sold from her child. This book filled the sails of the slave-trader and made merchandise of human flesh.

    "This book lighted the fires that burned "witches" and "wizards."

    "This book filled the darkness with ghouls and ghosts, and the bodies of men and women with devils. This book polluted the souls of men with the infamous dogma of eternal pain. This book made credulity the greatest of virtues, and investigation the greatest of crimes.

    "This book filled nations with hermits, monks and nuns -- with the pious and the useless. This book placed the ignorant and unclean saint above the philosopher and philanthropist.

    "This book taught man to despise the joys of this life, that he might be happy in another -- to waste this world for the sake of the next.

    "I attack this book because it is the enemy of human liberty -- the greatest obstruction across the highway of human progress.

    "Let me ask the ministers one question: How can you be wicked enough to defend this book?"
     
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  5. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg One Planet One People Please
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    Yet it is books such as the Bible that have created humanity as we konw it.

    It is the disregard of what is contained in those books that brings destruction to humanity.

    All the best and Regards Tony
     
  6. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    Absolutely. But it is meaningless to use it in reference to only one being. Saying that you are unified with yourself really isn't saying anything other than maybe that you're "well-adjusted."
     
  7. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    Thank you for the condescending post. What on earth would make you assume that I haven't read the Bible? Of course, God is beyond our capability to fully understand, but there is no need for people to go out of their way to make Him even more so.
     
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  8. SeekingAllTruth

    SeekingAllTruth Well-Known Member

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    Add to that the fact that nothing in the Old Testament truly mentions "Jesus Christ". There are just random passages picked out by NT writers that contain "he" or "my servant" and they just find some cockamamie way to attach Jesus to it and say, "Aha! See? Jesus was predicted in the OT so the prophecies about Jesus are true." Things like "they cast lots for my vestments" in Psalms and the writers just writes in a scene of the Romans casting lots for Jesus' vestments. 2000 years later Christians say, ""Aha! See? It was predicted in the OT the Romans would cast lots for Jesus clothes and they did so the prophecies about Jesus are true." The verse never said anything about Romans or anybody for that matter. It's just poetic language like the poems of Wordsworth or Frost.
     
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  9. It Aint Necessarily So

    It Aint Necessarily So Well-Known Member
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    Disagree strongly. The opposite is true. Disregarding the Bible vastly improved the human condition. Secular humanism is a much improved world view over the Bible's. It doesn't call anybody a sinner or an abomination based on sexual preference. It's simply reason applied to compassion and evidence.
    • "Teach slaves to be subject to their masters in everything, to try to please them, not to talk back to them" -Titus 2:9
    • "Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves."- Romans 13:1-2
    • "The women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says. If there is anything they desire to learn, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful for a woman to speak in church." 1 Cor 14:34-35
    This is terrible advice. Here's what you get by turning your back on the Bible. It certainly isn't the destruction of humanity. It took the Enlightenment and the rise of secular humanism to bring the world science and the modern secular state with its guaranteed personal freedoms. Unlike the Christian Bible, humanism rejects slavery, misogyny, and the divine right of kings.

    I notice that you ignored my challenge to you: "Sorry to disagree with you Tony, but there is nothing in that book that was beyond the ability of human beings to write, which is true of every book ever written. If you think otherwise, produce a biblical passage that you or I couldn't have written."

    You also failed to discuss how scripture is better than the Iliad.
     
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  10. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg One Planet One People Please
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    The discussion would amount to naught.

    Regards Tony
     
  11. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

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    The book of Genesis is highly spiritual book. The reference to "us" in Genesis 1:26 is prophetic of Christ who is God incarnate.

    The point of the plurality is to point to Christ. Really Christ is the same God but making us over again. This is the "new Covenant" between God and man. The new covenant is eternal life from the grave thanks to the resurrection and the life which is Jesus.

    Because the first time God made Adam and Eve in his own image but they fell due to sin. So Jesus comes in the exact imprint of God to make man anew in the image of Himself.

    This is why Jesus says you must be born anew. (John 3:3-5)

    The same would hold true for Jerusalem who is herself "reborn" as God says of her "I create ... Jerusalem" So there would come a time when God makes Jerusalem afresh himself. This is why she has two marriages. Divorced once in the Babylonian exile but redeemed by the blood of Jesus Christ and reborn. This is why it's called the "new" Jerusalem.
     
  12. SeekingAllTruth

    SeekingAllTruth Well-Known Member

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    Tossing Christianity also lifts a ton of baggage off you. When I tossed Christianity 10 years ago it was like a 1000-pound weight had been lifted off me. I felt so good it was extraordinary. No more getting down on my knees several times a day and raising my arms to an empty sky. :):):)
     
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  13. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    Canaanite paganism predates Hebraic monotheism. The plural is used because the early Judaic religion was henotheistic and not strictly monotheistic.
     
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  14. rational experiences

    rational experiences Well-Known Member

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    Every statement a human expressed opposes itself.

    I learnt speaking words as if you owned creation was humans downfall. It led to science and forced change of life.

    The human taught conscious theme about the word about God.

    Of consciousness. Changed when God body was changed.
    Of body. Human form changed.

    Hence words expression became evoked by cause effect. The evils introduced by science through use human words. To describe.

    Nature never named itself. It never thought and never spoke.

    Humans did. False ownership by word use. To think and speak falsely about ownership by a thought.

    Life awareness and natural living supported living never spoke. It was innate.

    Even today a human invents a product and names it a new name. Yet you are just a human. You are not owner you use and subsist only.

    What human conscious self teaching taught. Of course evil choice change was introduced. Humans did it to theirselves.

    The word proved it is a human self contradiction.

    If we stopped speaking imagine how many problems would be removed.

    Therefore if once humans brain stopped speaking natural forced it to do no more harm. As the intellect also was removed.

    How natural tried to save us from our own human deceit. As science knows the brain did change before.

    Blame a book for human action. You are terribly mistaken. When a human can read the exact same book and be loving and caring proves the book reader owns the immoral behaviour.
     
  15. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    No. It isn’t prophetic of Christ. That’s not the reason for the pluralistic language.
     
  16. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

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    Well you haven't proven me wrong ...
     
  17. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

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    By the way even Ignatius agrees with my understanding of it but I didn't know that until after I came to that conclusion.
     
  18. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    Easy to prove you wrong. 1) Genesis isn’t prophecy. You’re conflating two different types of literature. 2) Genesis isn’t a Christian text. The authors had no knowledge of Jesus, so could not be referring to him.
     
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  19. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    Doesn’t matter. Ignatius wasn’t speaking exegetically, but apologetically.
     
  20. Thief

    Thief Rogue Theologian

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    it is also written....somewhere

    ye ARE gods
     
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