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Featured More than one God in the OT?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Teritos, Apr 9, 2021.

  1. Left Coast

    Left Coast Circular File Complaint Analyst
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    "When the Most High apportioned the nations,
    when he divided humankind,
    he fixed the boundaries of the peoples
    according to the number of the gods"

    Deuteronomy 32:8

    "God has taken his place in the divine council;
    in the midst of the gods he holds judgment:"

    Psalm 82:1
     
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  2. darkskies

    darkskies Active Member

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    "Unity" is also a word meaning "one", related to a "unit".
     
  3. Rival

    Rival Iiu em hotep.
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    Not sure where this comes from. Here's what the Chabad one says,

    When the Most High gave nations their lot, when He separated the sons of man, He set up the boundaries of peoples according to the number of the children of Israel.


    Also here it says,

    A song of Asaph. God stands in the congregation of God; in the midst of the judges He will judge.
     
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  4. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg One Planet One People Please
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    I see this talks of all the Messengers.

    The Tablet of the Universe, to me explains these verses.

    Tablet of the Universe

    The Opening passage of that Table explains the 'We' aspect of God.

    "Praise be to God Who hath ever caused His Names and Attributes to penetrate the degrees of existence; Who hath made the effects of those Names and Attributes to shine resplendent and their signs to be firmly established in both the hidden and manifest worlds. By them He hath made the holy realities that are informed by His grace and are the recipients of His outpourings to be the sole revealers of all that pertaineth unto Him, and hath caused them to move through the firmament of perfection in arcs of descent and ascent. He hath ordained these Names and Attributes to be the first and foremost origin and cause of being in the world of creation and the source of the different grades of realities in the degrees of existence. When, through its power of attraction and propagation, the Day-Star of Names and Attributes shone upon the hidden realities in the heart of the unseen realm, they issued forth, were spread abroad, scattered about, set in order, became the recipients of the grace of God and His outpourings, and were made to be the sole manifestations of the Divine conditions and Eternal signs. Emerging from behind the veils, they appeared clothed in raiments of light, moving in the firmament of the unity of God, in orbits of sanctity and circles of glorification.... "

    To me it explains all of God's Messengers and how they are from the One same source, it also show that the Holy Spirit itself is Created of God.

    Regards Tony
     
  5. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg One Planet One People Please
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    Because it is God that gave all the Messengers, all the Names of the Messengers and all the Messages throughout time.

    The First and the Last contains all the Names of God, Christ is all the Names and all the Messengers.

    Regards Tony
     
  6. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg One Planet One People Please
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    A body, a well ordered system.

    Regards Tony
     
  7. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg One Planet One People Please
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    Or maybe they saw the One God in all Names and thus did not need to worship a name, but only the Nameless.

    Regards Tony
     
  8. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg One Planet One People Please
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    The attributes are our unity. The more we foster, the more we see that potential in all others.

    The less we strive to obtain the attributes, the more we find are missing in others.

    God is a sum of all the attributes, which are displayed in this world by the 'Self of God', the Messengers.

    Regards Tony
     
  9. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg One Planet One People Please
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    God is the Most Great Spirit.

    The Messengers are the 'Self of God' in this world, but given by the Most Great Spirit.

    All the Messengers are created from the Holy Spirit. This is the meaning of the virgin birth metephor given in the Bible.

    This is a great topic, happy to get into the finer detail, there is much offered on this topic now.

    Regards Tony
     
  10. Left Coast

    Left Coast Circular File Complaint Analyst
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    Hebrew Henotheism

    "The ninth century Masoretic text replaces "sons of God" with "sons of Israel," which some modern English versions follow. It does look like the Masoretes changed the text so as to avoid dangerous polytheistic implications. Furthermore, "Son of Israel" makes absolutely no sense in Deut. 32:8. The people of Israel were Yahweh's "portion" while the sons of God "were divine beings or angels to whom God had delegated authority over the nations. Their existence is not denied but rather accommodated to the overall authority of Yahweh to whom they are subservient."

    The word in Hebrew is elohim, from what I can see.
     
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  11. It Aint Necessarily So

    It Aint Necessarily So Well-Known Member
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    Sorry, but there is nothin in the Christian Bible that couldn't have been written by you or me. From R. G. Ingersoll on the subject of what a such a book of divine origin should be like:

    · It should be a book that no man -- no number of men -- could produce.
    · It should contain the perfection of philosophy.
    · It should perfectly accord with every fact in nature.
    · There should be no mistakes in astronomy, geology, or as to any subject or science.
    · Its morality should be the highest, the purest.
    · Its laws and regulations for the control of conduct should be just, wise, perfect, and perfectly adapted to the accomplishment of the ends desired.
    · It should contain nothing calculated to make man cruel, revengeful, vindictive or infamous.
    · It should be filled with intelligence, justice, purity, honesty, mercy and the spirit of liberty.
    · It should be opposed to strife and war, to slavery and lust, to ignorance, credulity and superstition.
    · It should develop the brain and civilize the heart.
    · It should satisfy the heart and brain of the best and wisest.
     
  12. Rival

    Rival Iiu em hotep.
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    @Left Coast
    It is Elohim, yes, but this word is often used to mean judges, gods, lords etc. It denotes power, essentially. It seems more of a context thing.
     
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  13. Left Coast

    Left Coast Circular File Complaint Analyst
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    Sefaria's translation appears to agree the reference of the verse is not to human judges, but rather closer to "gods."

    מִזְמ֗וֹר לְאָ֫סָ֥ף אֱ‍ֽלֹהִ֗ים נִצָּ֥ב בַּעֲדַת־אֵ֑ל בְּקֶ֖רֶב אֱלֹהִ֣ים יִשְׁפֹּֽט׃ A psalm of Asaph. God stands in the divine assembly; among the divine beings He pronounces judgment.

    Psalms 82
     
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  14. Rival

    Rival Iiu em hotep.
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    My ArtScroll interlinear has 'judges', as has my Koren.

    Guess it's just one of those things.
     
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  15. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg One Planet One People Please
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    To me this is showing that all God's Mesengers are sent to fulfil a specific task to a specific people, yet they are all in reality the children of Isreal. That we are judged by the Message given, by God. That is why every Messenger has brought a 'Judgement Day'.

    To me this is why a Jew is so blessed, they are always part of the Centre of God's Revelations.

    Then God has promised a day when we would see them all as One in the Most Great Name of the One God.

    Regards Tony
     
  16. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg One Planet One People Please
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    The challenge to produce such a book is given, if one is not to speak falsely. The Qur'an also gives the opportunity of that challenge, as does Baha'u'llah.

    So go ahead, produce a book such as the new testament, if it is that easy.

    Who the heck is R. G. Ingersoll? Therin lays the difference.

    Regards Tony
     
  17. Left Coast

    Left Coast Circular File Complaint Analyst
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    How do they translate verses 6-7? It would be weird for this to be a reference to humans:

    אֲ‍ֽנִי־אָ֭מַרְתִּי אֱלֹהִ֣ים אַתֶּ֑ם וּבְנֵ֖י עֶלְי֣וֹן כֻּלְּכֶֽם׃ I had taken you for divine beings, sons of the Most High, all of you;

    אָ֭כֵן כְּאָדָ֣ם תְּמוּת֑וּן וּכְאַחַ֖ד הַשָּׂרִ֣ים תִּפֹּֽלוּ׃ but you shall die as men do, fall like any prince.
     
  18. KenS

    KenS Face to face with my Father
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    Because He wasn't. Abraham left to Canaanites religion to follow YHWH
     
  19. Rival

    Rival Iiu em hotep.
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    ArtScroll,

    'I said "You are angelic, sons of the Most High are you all." But like men you shall die, and like one of the princes you shall fall.'


    Koren,

    'I had said, You are angels, all of you sons of the Most High; nevertheless, you shall die like a man, and fall as one man, O Princes.'

    Chabad,

    I said, "You are angelic creatures, and all of you are angels of the Most High." Indeed, as man, you will die, and as one of the princes, you will fall.


    Seems slightly forced to me. I've never been the biggest fan of AS's translations especially.
     
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  20. Left Coast

    Left Coast Circular File Complaint Analyst
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    Indeed, seems suspect that they would translate the term differently in two different places in the same psalm.
     
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