More News on the Changing Evolution Scene :-) !!! :-)

[ecco]

My point is (sorry that you didn't get it), that without life there is no movement, however you want to classify it.

So, you are saying the earth is alive because it moves around the sun? Wow! Thats a new one.

So when an animal or plant dies, what happened to the LIFE that is necessary for biologic movement? It disappeared????

You seem to think that "LIFE" is some magical thing like a soul. Mommy, where does my soul go when I die? Mommy, where does my life go when I die?

The atoms that comprise the cells are free up. Children, those who want to learn and pay attention, learn that in the fifth grade in public schools.

Maybe you say life isn't necessary for evolution? Hey, maybe that's what some believe.

Do you know any scientists or educated laymen who believe that? Can you name even one? Of course, you can't. That's because your comment is just another strawman that you need to build to maintain your ______ beliefs.

You skipped these comments...
How many times have you and your fellow Creationists been told that the study of the origins of life is called abiogenesis, not evolution?

How many times have you and your fellow Creationists been told that currently science has not determined the process that led from atoms to molecules to amino acids to peptides to cells?

The theory guesses as to how life started.

Don't you know the difference between "We currently don't know" and "Let's make some silly guesses"?

"We currently don't know" is honest. "Let's guess that a God did it" is Male Bovine Feces.




Your knowledge of nature is abysmal to non-existent. If you had any real knowledge of nature, you wouldn't embarrass yourself by making nonsensical posts like...

So life of an animal or plant evaporates into what? elements? The life went on or didn't go on? What do you think? And -- since you can't have evolution withoiut life, whether it's called abiogenesis or not, what happens (happened) to the LIFE??????? ????

 

[ecco]

Yes, I do. Without a beginning and knowing the beginning, you can't have evolution because just to say something looks like something else in Darwinian terms doesn't mean all these different kinds emerged or evolved. A beginning is necessary and without life, there is no theoretical evolution. Looks or no looks.

You wrote: "Without a beginning and knowing the beginning, you can't have...".
You wrote: "A beginning is necessary...".

Here's where we see your double standards. Or, more accurately, lack of standards.

Does your god have a beginning? Do you know that beginning? Wasn't it necessary?


Now I await your: "God is eternal and blah, blah, blah. It's not just double standards, it's hypocrisy. The writers of the OT were really clever to omit:

Thou shalt not commit hypocrisy.
​

They knew that their followers would need large amounts of hypocrisy to further their apologetics.

 

[YoursTrue]

Sure. But you can pick any two things and there is likely to be *something* in common.

In this case, soil and flesh are both made out of atoms.

But there is a very wide variety of types of soil, so saying anything more than that would require you to be more precise in your question.

And soil changes according to infestation as well as landslides, doesn't it? Among other things. But, the fact is, 'atoms' that are in soil are also in human beings. And animals. And plants.

 

[YoursTrue]

You wrote: "Without a beginning and knowing the beginning, you can't have...".
You wrote: "A beginning is necessary...".

Here's where we see your double standards. Or, more accurately, lack of standards.

Does your god have a beginning? Do you know that beginning? Wasn't it necessary?


Now I await your: "God is eternal and blah, blah, blah. It's not just double standards, it's hypocrisy. The writers of the OT were really clever to omit:

Thou shalt not commit hypocrisy.
​

They knew that their followers would need large amounts of hypocrisy to further their apologetics.

That is the conundrum of human thinking. Human thinking (as opposed to gorillas' thinking or cockroach thinking...or plants thinking) is that there are conclusions drawn about certain things. Do I know what it was like in my mother's womb? Nope. Do you? And neither, I am sure, do muskrats, gorillas, and birds' eggs. But I KNOW I had a beginning, although I also KNOW that I don't KNOW anything until I do know something. I also KNOW I "wasn't there" before my mama and papa got together to make me (in a manner of speaking of course). So -- yes, the BIG QUESTION IS -- what do I KNOW about God? Do I know if the moon knows how it got there? Yes, I KNOW IT DOESN'T KNOW HOW IT GOT THERE. (I know because I know, just like I know the first appearance of life on the earth did not KNOW how it got there.) But it did get there. Nothing starts without a beginning, except -- you guessed it -- the One that is ineffable, inexplicable in human terms. Can I explain it? (No.) But -- EVERYTHING has a beginning somehow, somewhere -- except of course, the One that started it all. Including the universe. Can I explain it? No. Except that God is God from everlasting to everlasting. No beginning, no end. Inexplicable in human terms. It's beyond testing scientifically, and beyond our finite understanding. A few translations showing this concept:

Psalm 41:13 - Blessed be the Lord God of Israel from everlasting to everlasting! Amen and Amen. ASV
Blessed be Jehovah, the God of Israel, From everlasting and to everlasting. Amen, and Amen. AMP
Blessed be the Lord, the God of Israel, From everlasting to everlasting [from this age to the next, and forever]. Amen and Amen (so be it).

Life, as we know it in our rather brief personal existence, had a beginning when things like the first plants, organisms, and other living matter, reproduced. We figure that, even evolutionists do. Did life exist elsewhere in the universe? Let me just put it this way -- life on the earth didn't "come about" by itself or by undirected chemical, biologic, action. Nothing comes from nothing. Unless maybe you can produce an argument showing that something comes from nothing.
Getting down to basics. To an extent.

 

[YoursTrue]

So, you are saying the earth is alive because it moves around the sun? Wow! Thats a new one.
You seem to think that "LIFE" is some magical thing like a soul. Mommy, where does my soul go when I die? Mommy, where does my life go when I die?
The atoms that comprise the cells are free up. Children, those who want to learn and pay attention, learn that in the fifth grade in public schools.
Do you know any scientists or educated laymen who believe that? Can you name even one? Of course, you can't. That's because your comment is just another strawman that you need to build to maintain your ______ beliefs.
You skipped these comments...
How many times have you and your fellow Creationists been told that the study of the origins of life is called abiogenesis, notevolution? How many times have you and your fellow Creationists been told that currently science has not determined the process that led from atoms to molecules to amino acids to peptides to cells?
Don't you know the difference between "We currently don't know" and "Let's make some silly guesses"?
"We currently don't know" is honest. "Let's guess that a God did it" is Male Bovine Feces.
Your knowledge of nature is abysmal to non-existent. If you had any real knowledge of nature, you wouldn't embarrass yourself by making nonsensical posts like...

​

I am saying that without life there is no movement. The so-called laws of the universe were initiated by -- ?? themselves?? No, I don't think so. But that's me. I am not saying that the sun is alive, or that magnetism is alive. But -- like electricity, it can be used to invigorate certain things. I am also saying that when the beasts of the earth die, when birds and other living moving things die -- they go back to -- the -- ground.
Genesis 1:30 - And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds in the sky and all the creatures that move along the ground—everything that has the breath of life in it—I give every green plant for food.” And it was so.

 

[YoursTrue]

No individual 'morphs'. Populations change in their characteristics over time. But you don't get sudden changes, and each stage is similar to the ones before and after.

I wasn't using morph as meaning a sudden change. Which of course, evolution doesn't show anyway, does it? No, the term morph is meant that something like a dinosaur turns into a bird like a sparrow. That's what I mean by morph.

 

[YoursTrue]

You wrote: "Without a beginning and knowing the beginning, you can't have...".
You wrote: "A beginning is necessary...".

Here's where we see your double standards. Or, more accurately, lack of standards.

Does your god have a beginning? Do you know that beginning? Wasn't it necessary?


Now I await your: "God is eternal and blah, blah, blah. It's not just double standards, it's hypocrisy. The writers of the OT were really clever to omit:

Thou shalt not commit hypocrisy.
​

They knew that their followers would need large amounts of hypocrisy to further their apologetics.

It's not hypocrisy. I'm not with everybody called a creationist. It's that "EVERYTHING HAS A BEGINNING," INCLUDING the elementary things like -- the Big Bang. So where did the beginning come from? NOWHERE????? Please in your expertise try answering that. The only One that has no beginning is God Almighty. Can I explain that beyond that? No. But the name as given in the Bible is sometimes said to mean: "I AM THAT I AM." So God, as I understand it, is that which HE IS. The masculine gender is used to describe the ALMIGHTY God in the Bible. Actually, Jesus did not omit the existence of hypocrisy when he spoke of religious hypocrites. And hypocrisy is lying, so yes, the Bible does say that bearing false witness is a sin. Among other things which are sins.

 

[YoursTrue]

If you mean The Theory of Evolution, sure, it needs life. What's your point?

How many times have you and your fellow Creationists been told that the study of the origins of life is called abiogenesis, not evolution?

How many times have you and your fellow Creationists been told that currently science has not determined the process that led from atoms to molecules to amino acids to peptides to cells?

Two hundred years ago science could not tell you that water was hydrogen and oxygen atoms combined in a very specific way. If you were alive back then would you have argued there was no water because science couldn't specify how atoms became molecules?

When would you have stopped arguing that the world must be flat because people would fall off a rapidly rotating sphere?

haha, you're funny. I know/believe/and think that the world is not flat. I also know that the "law" of gravity keeps a person "grounded." When will you stop insulting me? When the world stops rotating?
And P.S. I'm not against science. I just don't believe that humans (1) are animal-apes, and (2) that LIFE and diversity of things on earth came about by themselves by morphing, gravity, electricity without purpose (as at the so-called beginning maybe). So please before you keep insulting me you might try to think. But y'know, I know that's not always possible. So -- it's been interesting talking with you, and I'm thankful for the conversation(s).

 

[YoursTrue]

Simply false. The planets move and they are not alive. All that is required is a force. Forces produce changes in velocity (speed and direction of movement).


I say that life isn't necessary for movement. In fact, movement withiut life is common.

Evolution is not about individuals changing. It is about *populations* changing. Each generation is slightly different than its parents. Those difference add up over time and generations to produce larger changes.



What happens to the electricity when you turn off the light?

I was speaking of movement in things (like plants and animals) that are alive on the earth. (OK?) Not things like the movement (rotation) of the planets and sun, etc.

 

[Polymath257]

I was speaking of movement in things (like plants and animals) that are alive on the earth. (OK?) Not things like the movement (rotation) of the planets and sun, etc.

Or like the movement of tectonic plates?

Living things obey the same laws of physics as everything else. There is nothing special about movement in living things.

 

[Polymath257]

haha, you're funny. I know/believe/and think that the world is not flat. I also know that the "law" of gravity keeps a person "grounded." When will you stop insulting me? When the world stops rotating?
And P.S. I'm not against science. I just don't believe that humans (1) are animal-apes, and (2) that LIFE and diversity of things on earth came about by themselves by morphing, gravity, electricity without purpose (as at the so-called beginning maybe). So please before you keep insulting me you might try to think. But y'know, I know that's not always possible. So -- it's been interesting talking with you, and I'm thankful for the conversation(s).

So you are not against science except when it says something that challenges your special beliefs?

Yes, humans are apes. Of that, there is no question. It is a simple matter of classification and seeing how we compare to other species.

And yes, species change over time. In many cases, dramatically (morphing, in your terminology).

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I wasn't using morph as meaning a sudden change. Which of course, evolution doesn't show anyway, does it? No, the term morph is meant that something like a dinosaur turns into a bird like a sparrow. That's what I mean by morph.

What's wrong with the word "evolve"?
Ancestral dino's evolved into birds.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

It's not hypocrisy. I'm not with everybody called a creationist. It's that "EVERYTHING HAS A BEGINNING," INCLUDING the elementary things like -- the Big Bang. So where did the beginning come from? NOWHERE?????

The origins of the universe is a question being worked on by physicists all over the world.
It's one of the reasons why the LHC was build.

At this point, the only real correct answer is "we don't know (yet)".

Please in your expertise try answering that.

I did. We don't know.

The only One that has no beginning is God Almighty

This is a claim. Claims require evidence. If you feel exempt from this burden of proof, I'll assume the same rights as you and just say that "the universe has no beginning" - and expect you to be just fine with that statement, just like you expect me to be with yours. Apparently.

Can I explain that beyond that? No.

Then your statement is dismissed.
Because what is asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

But the name as given in the Bible is sometimes said to mean: "I AM THAT I AM." So God, as I understand it, is that which HE IS. The masculine gender is used to describe the ALMIGHTY God in the Bible. Actually, Jesus did not omit the existence of hypocrisy when he spoke of religious hypocrites. And hypocrisy is lying, so yes, the Bible does say that bearing false witness is a sin. Among other things which are sins.

Repeating claims from a book, does not magically support them, nor does that mean the burden of proof has been met.

So unless you actually have something to explain this "beyond that", then I'll treat these claims in the same way as the previous one: what is asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

 

[SkepticThinker]

That is the conundrum of human thinking. Human thinking (as opposed to gorillas' thinking or cockroach thinking...or plants thinking) is that there are conclusions drawn about certain things. Do I know what it was like in my mother's womb? Nope. Do you? And neither, I am sure, do muskrats, gorillas, and birds' eggs. But I KNOW I had a beginning, although I also KNOW that I don't KNOW anything until I do know something. I also KNOW I "wasn't there" before my mama and papa got together to make me (in a manner of speaking of course). So -- yes, the BIG QUESTION IS -- what do I KNOW about God? Do I know if the moon knows how it got there? Yes, I KNOW IT DOESN'T KNOW HOW IT GOT THERE. (I know because I know, just like I know the first appearance of life on the earth did not KNOW how it got there.) But it did get there. Nothing starts without a beginning, except -- you guessed it -- the One that is ineffable, inexplicable in human terms. Can I explain it? (No.) But -- EVERYTHING has a beginning somehow, somewhere -- except of course, the One that started it all. Including the universe. Can I explain it? No. Except that God is God from everlasting to everlasting. No beginning, no end. Inexplicable in human terms. It's beyond testing scientifically, and beyond our finite understanding. A few translations showing this concept:

Psalm 41:13 - Blessed be the Lord God of Israel from everlasting to everlasting! Amen and Amen. ASV
Blessed be Jehovah, the God of Israel, From everlasting and to everlasting. Amen, and Amen. AMP
Blessed be the Lord, the God of Israel, From everlasting to everlasting [from this age to the next, and forever]. Amen and Amen (so be it).

Life, as we know it in our rather brief personal existence, had a beginning when things like the first plants, organisms, and other living matter, reproduced. We figure that, even evolutionists do. Did life exist elsewhere in the universe? Let me just put it this way -- life on the earth didn't "come about" by itself or by undirected chemical, biologic, action. Nothing comes from nothing. Unless maybe you can produce an argument showing that something comes from nothing.
Getting down to basics. To an extent.

Well there you have it folks ...

Nothing comes from nothing.

EXCEPT the god I believe in. That came from nothing. I know it because I know it.



Do you have any arguments that aren't logical fallacies and/or hypocritical in nature?

 

[SkepticThinker]

It's not hypocrisy. I'm not with everybody called a creationist. It's that "EVERYTHING HAS A BEGINNING," INCLUDING the elementary things like -- the Big Bang. So where did the beginning come from? NOWHERE????? Please in your expertise try answering that. The only One that has no beginning is God Almighty. Can I explain that beyond that? No. But the name as given in the Bible is sometimes said to mean: "I AM THAT I AM." So God, as I understand it, is that which HE IS. The masculine gender is used to describe the ALMIGHTY God in the Bible. Actually, Jesus did not omit the existence of hypocrisy when he spoke of religious hypocrites. And hypocrisy is lying, so yes, the Bible does say that bearing false witness is a sin. Among other things which are sins.

You still haven't told us why anybody should believe anything the Bible says.

 

[SkepticThinker]

haha, you're funny. I know/believe/and think that the world is not flat. I also know that the "law" of gravity keeps a person "grounded." When will you stop insulting me? When the world stops rotating?
And P.S. I'm not against science. I just don't believe that humans (1) are animal-apes, and (2) that LIFE and diversity of things on earth came about by themselves by morphing, gravity, electricity without purpose (as at the so-called beginning maybe). So please before you keep insulting me you might try to think. But y'know, I know that's not always possible. So -- it's been interesting talking with you, and I'm thankful for the conversation(s).

What if you met a person who said to you, "I know the world is flat."
And when you asked how they knew that, they said, "I know because I know."


??

 

[Bear Wild]

I wasn't using morph as meaning a sudden change. Which of course, evolution doesn't show anyway, does it? No, the term morph is meant that something like a dinosaur turns into a bird like a sparrow. That's what I mean by morph.

I see the problem, you are trying to understand how a dinosaur turns into a sparrow. No wonder you are confused since that does not happen. This is a trick used by creationists and ID people to mislead people. You take two very different organisms place them side by side and say see T. rex could not change directly into a sparrow. Do not be deceived by these tricks. The reality is it is a gradual change over periods of time that we humans have difficulty understanding. But we have some evidence of plasticity of genetics.

I am a teacup Pomeranian and I can weigh 4 pounds and grow as tall as 8 inches. I do not know what that thing is in the picture below but it is clearly not my "kind". It looks more like a dinosaur to me.

I am a Great Dane and I weigh 200 pounds and I am 32 inches tall except when I stand on my back two feet then I am over 5 feet. I have no idea what that thing is in the picture above. My master says they were used in the show Star Trek as Tribbles. What ever that kind of animal that is it is certainly not my "kind" of animal.


Its all a matter of perspective.

Again please give us an explanation of fossils. I really want to understand what they mean (not how they form) with respect you your view of how life came about.

 

[YoursTrue]

What's wrong with the word "evolve"?
Ancestral dino's evolved into birds.

It's almost like things morph, as if one form moves into another, however slowly.

 

[YoursTrue]

I see the problem, you are trying to understand how a dinosaur turns into a sparrow. No wonder you are confused since that does not happen. This is a trick used by creationists and ID people to mislead people. You take two very different organisms place them side by side and say see T. rex could not change directly into a sparrow. Do not be deceived by these tricks. The reality is it is a gradual change over periods of time that we humans have difficulty understanding. But we have some evidence of plasticity of genetics.

I am a teacup Pomeranian and I can weigh 4 pounds and grow as tall as 8 inches. I do not know what that thing is in the picture below but it is clearly not my "kind". It looks more like a dinosaur to me.

I am a Great Dane and I weigh 200 pounds and I am 32 inches tall except when I stand on my back two feet then I am over 5 feet. I have no idea what that thing is in the picture above. My master says they were used in the show Star Trek as Tribbles. What ever that kind of animal that is it is certainly not my "kind" of animal.


Its all a matter of perspective.

Again please give us an explanation of fossils. I really want to understand what they mean (not how they form) with respect you your view of how life came about.

So first let me understand what you are saying at the beginning. Are you saying that dinosaurs did NOT develop into birds with wings that fly, such as sparrows? Apparently this is what scientists believe, isn't it?
How Dinosaurs Shrank and Became Birds - Scientific American

 

[YoursTrue]

Well there you have it folks ...

Nothing comes from nothing.

EXCEPT the god I believe in. That came from nothing. I know it because I know it.



Do you have any arguments that aren't logical fallacies and/or hypocritical in nature?

The fact is that nothing comes from nothing. Therefore -- there was never 'nothing.' I leave the rest of the philosophical equation to you.