More love directed at the Mormons!

[Aqualung]

As for the other proclaimed prophets - What they say may have truth in them, but the only person who is authorized on earth today to recieve doctrinal revelation for Jesus's true church on earth today is our prophet. That means, if it contradicts the teachings of the church, it's false.

 

[joeboonda]

As for the other proclaimed prophets - What they say may have truth in them, but the only person who is authorized on earth today to recieve doctrinal revelation for Jesus's true church on earth today is our prophet. That means, if it contradicts the teachings of the church, it's false.

Wow, that was fast, I was still 'editing my post, lol. So, you believe your prophet is the only true prophet on earth now and your church is the only true church, correct?

 

[jonny]

From my point of view, this verse says we have a so great salvation, first spoken by the Lord, and he had signs, wonders and miracles to show he was telling the truth. This is true of the apostles, when they told the Jews that Christ rose from the dead, and was the Messiah, signs, wonders, and miracles followed so people would know it was the truth from God. Once we had the Biblical cannon written down, it seems, historically that these confirming gifts ceased, although not all the gifts of the Holy Spirit ceased, these seem to have (to me, not to charismatics and others). It seems that God, when ushering in a new 'age' always uses something supernatural to show ppl we are going into that new age. I would expect there confirming signs and miracles following new revelation also. Was there any, that were witnessed by a lot of people when you received your three books? I am interested to hear of them, if you can get back to me on that.

I have personally witnessed miracles through the priesthood, but they are too sacred for me to post specifics on an internet forum...the phrase "casting pearls before swine" comes to mind. Generally, I have seen people healed through the priesthood and my grandmother witnessed a blind women gain her sight again in the temple.

Miracles the occured in the early days of the church have also been recorded. As I said earlier, God the Father and Christ appearing to a 14-year-old boy is one of the most amazing signs/miracles I could imagine.

 

[jonny]

One question, I have often wondered what groups that use extra-biblical books as authority think of each others' revelations. Like what would a follower of Joseph Smith's revelations think of revelations given to Mary Baker Eddie, or Ellen G. White. Would you consider the doctrines of a Christian Scientist, a Seventh Day Adventist, or a Jehovah's Witness to all be true revelations from God, and do they all agree with each other? It would be cool to see how you all believe about that. I cannot really say, because I believe in the Bible only, but I would be interested in folks views on other folks extra-biblical revelations.

As Aqualung stated, there is a line of authority when it comes to revelation. I cannot receive revelation for you and you cannot receive revelation for me. I can receive revelation for myself and family. The prophet is the only person who can receive revelation for the entire church/world.

How do we see those books that you stated. I would refer you to our 13th Article of Faith.

I still plan on responding to some of your other comments, but I'm at work right now and don't have a lot of time to put thought into them at the moment.

 

[Katzpur]

This thread is making me dizzy. This is a perfect example of why we should never get into deep church doctrine in a setting like this. As a missionary we were told never to get into deep doctine with people not of our faith. It should only be done in a sunday school setting in a church with an opening and closing prayer. The Devil is all around and will confuse the subject and cause contention. STICK TO TH BASICS and let the Holy Ghost prick peoples hearts to learn more by first talking with the missionaries and then studying it on their own. Lead them to Christ and his teachings and then build on that. Deep doctrines should not be discussed here with people not of our faith and maybe not even amongst ourselves in this forum.

This isn't "deep church doctrine" at all. It's anti-Mormon garbage and that's all it is. Honest questions deserve honest answers and there is nothing that has been addressed in this thread that is unappropriate for a religious discussion forum. The only problem is that the facts are falling on deaf ears.

 

[Katzpur]

I have always found Mormons to be kind, thoughtful, caring and loving decent people.

Thank you! That's very kind of you to say!

Was this guy coming off an all week bender or summin'?

Actually, this was one of his "gentler, kinder days." You should see him when he's really on one!

 

[Buttons*]

I'm so sorry that people can attack something so harmless as another religion. *sigh* Wow... i've been to the Mormon church several times with a friend of mine, and the church seems absolutley amazing.

Mormons are very peaceful and good hearted people. I'm glad to say i know so many. *smiles*

Good for you for defending your faith.
*~Lo

 

[jonny]

Next, I'd like to respond to some of your statements regarding the Book of Mormon. Your seemed to argue that the Book of Mormon isn't true because it was "supposedly translated from Egyptian hieroglyphics." On the other hand, the Bible was given to men in their common language. I'm having a hard time following your logic. When did God come down from heaven and hand the Catholic church the New Testament written in Greek? What does your argument say about the translation of the Bible into other languages?

 

[jonny]

Are you seriously bringing out the Solomon Spaulding argument? Even the anti-Mormons in the 1800s claimed that this theory was bunk.

The claim that Joseph Smith plagarized a book by Solomon Spaulding is dependant on Sidney Rigdon acquiring the manuscript and giving it to Joseph Smith. The problem is that Sidney Rigdon wasn't an acquaintance of the Smith Family until after the LDS church was organized (per Emma Smith, Joseph's wife).

The fact that the premise of the claim is impossible isn't even the most compelling argument against this lie. The truth is in the books. The claim was made fairly quickly after the Book of Mormon was published, but the manuscript was not available. The printing company that had the rights to Spaulding's manuscript was purchased by a man named L.L. Rice in 1839. The manuscript was found among other documents from the printing company in 1884. Rice, James Fairchild (President of Oberlin College), and a few others examined the manuscript and compared it with the Book of Mormon. Their conclusion was that they "could detect no resemblance between the two, in general or detail." Fairchild went on to say that "the theory of the origin of the Book of Mormon in the traditional manuscript of Solomon Spaulding will probably have to be relinquished."

The anti-Mormon book that you are reading really should be updated. This theory was crushed over 100 years ago. I hope this demonstrated how long-lasting lies can become. Let's get the facts straight.

I took a look at an anti-Mormon website's comparison between the two books and it is hilarious. They claim that phrases such as "astonished at," "the minds of," "great was," and "even himself" appearing in both documents shows that the Book of Mormon was plagarized. Here is an example of what anti-Mormons claim Joseph stole:

[font=Century Gothic, Arial, Helvetica] (30.4) after Moroni had received. . . Helaman's epistle. . .he immediately sent [Alma 59:01 LDS]
(30.5) when Moronihah had discovered this, he immediately sent [Helaman 01:28 LDS[/font]

[font=Century Gothic, Arial, Helvetica](30.1) When Hadokam. . . had received this plan. . . he immediately [ObMs 089:11]
(30.2) When Hamboon had received this letter, he immediately [ObMs 122:06]
(30.3) When Labanco had. . . he immediately assembled [ObMs 138:29][/font]

Here is more information on this theory if you're interested: http://www.lightplanet.com/response/spalding.htm

 

[jonny]

The last thing I want to mention today is your comments regarding the Book of Mormon having verses out of the King James version of the Bible. May I remind you that the Book of Mormon is a translation of ancient records. It is possible that Joseph Smith used the bible while translating parts of the plates that were similar. Lehi and his family brought many of the scriptures from Israel to America with him and many of these scriptures were recorded in the Book of Mormon. Also, Christ visited the Nephites and gave many similar sermons to those that were given in the Holy Land during his life. The translations are not 100% consistent.

One of the more interesting ones is 2 Nephi 12:16. The verse reads "And upon all the ships of the sea, and upon all the ships of Tarshish, and upon all pleasant pictures."

If we compare this to the verse in Isaiah 2:16 it reads, "And upon all the ships of Tarshish, and upon all the pleasant pictures."

The verses are slightly different, but what is interesting is that the phrase "and upon all the ships of Tarshish" is from the Hebrew translation of the scriptures. The phrase "ships of the sea" is what is included in the Greek (Septuagint) version. The King James version of the bible is based on the Hebrew text, thus the phrase with "Tarshish." These are the scriptures that you claim Joseph Smith plagarized. Is it possible that the original text, carried by Lehi on the brass plates included all three items?

Even if he didn't, I'd be interested in your explanation as to how Joseph Smith knew of the difference between the Greek and Hebrew texts and was careful enough to include both phrases in this verse. If he did he never thought to mention it in his life and it wasn't noticed by church scholars until the 1940s.

If you'd like to read more about the Isaiah variations in the Book of Mormon, you can do so at this site: http://farms.byu.edu/display.php?id=2&table=transcripts

 

[turk179]

Finally got around to reading this thread and all I can say is . I hope I am not intruding here but I seriously hope the person that made those horrible comments is no longer with us. Lately Intolerance of others beliefs has been even more painful for me than usual , whether it be pagan or Christian or atheist. I am truly sorry you all had to be exposed to that level of ignorance. Again, I apologize if I am intruding.

 

[joeboonda]

Hi, everybody. I am enjoying the posts you have made, very good. I had a question, I will try to verbalize it as best as I can. Now, we all would agree that it is very important to each of us to get to know the Father and have fellowship with Him, right? Ok, now to get to know the Father, we would agree that the Bible says the only way is through Jesus as Matt 1:27 & Luke 10:22 say, All things are delivered unto me of my Father; and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him. All things are delivered to me of my Father; and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, buth the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him.

Another thing we would agree on, is that to know the Father, through Jesus, we must know him through the correct Jesus of historical and biblical christianity. In other words, we know that some people, I guess like gnostics, or perhaps Muslims, who do not believe he actually died, have a wrong idea of who Jesus is. So, we want to be sure we are following the correct Jesus if you will. I just wanted to give a few things about Jesus from the Bible, and just ask if you would agree or not about them.
1. Jesus is prayed to:
Acts 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon GOD, and saying, LORD JESUS, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.
I Cor. 1:2b ...with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours.
(Also see 3 Nephi 19:18-Jesus is prayed to, not through)
2. Jesus is worshipped:
Matt 2:2,11 ...for we have seen his star in the east and are come to worship him...and fell down and worshipped him.
Matt 14:33, 28:9 Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him...Jesus met them saying, All hail, and they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him.
John 9:38 And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him.
Hebrews 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. (there are dozens more verses, but this is sufficient)
3. Jesus is called God:
John 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
Hebrews 1:8 But unto the SON he saith, Thy throne O GOD, is for ever and ever...
I Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness; GOD was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
Romans 14:10b,12 For we shall all stand before the judgement seat of Christ...So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

Ok, so what I am trying to establish, biblically, is that Jesus was prayed to, worshipped, and called God, in the Bible. So what I would ask, is do you pray to Jesus, do you worship Jesus, and do you call him God? And, are you right and me wrong if I do what scripture says and pray to, worship, and call Jesus God? What I am asking is, do you honor Him equally with the Father as Jesus said to to in John 5:23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which haath sent him. I know the Father was greater in position, for Jesus was for a little while lower than the angels,Heb. 2:9, It was in this humbled state that Jesus said the Father was greater than He. He didn't say different or better, only greater. Would you understand that Jesus was fully man as well as fully God and as a man was in a lesser position? Still though, Scripture requires that you honor Him equally with the Father as Jesus said. I mean, like Thomas, do you call Jesus your Lord and your God, and as the scripture above says, But of the son, He (the Father) says, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever? Also in 3 Nephi 19:18 its calls Jesus Lord and God.

My question is this, if you have the only true church, and do not pray to Jesus, worship Jesus, and call him Lord and God, yet, I am not in your only true church and I do pray to Jesus, worship Him, and call him my Lord and my God, how am i wrong and you right? I have heard some Mormons do these things even though from what I have learned is that mormon theology does not allow worship of Jesus. If you do pray to, worship, and call Jesus God, then that's great, if not, then I believe we are in disagreement. For, I call on Jesus to forgive me of my sins, and only God can forgive sins, yet Jesus forgave peoples sins in the Bible, thats why the religious rulers were mad at him, making himself equal with God. So, I am saying, I trust in Jesus for forgiveness of my sins, nothing more, nothing less, and I pray that this is your hearts' desire too. Looking forward to your thoughts about this.

Sincerely,

Joeboonda

 

[Aqualung]

Well, we see Jesus as creator, Lord, and judge of this world.

 

[jonny]

Do you pray to Jesus, do you worship Jesus, and do you call him God?

In the Bible, Christ taught us that we should pray to our father in heaven. Members of the LDS church pray to our Father in Heaven in the name of the Son.

I worship Jesus Christ. Perhaps you should define what you mean by worship though.

Jesus Christ is a member of the Godhead. He is the Son of God. He is God just as much as our Heavenly Father and the Holy Ghost are God. I have no problem calling him God, but he is not God the Father.

That was an easy question. I'm hoping that you'll respond to some of the questions that I've asked in my posts...I hope I'm not talking to myself.

I am not in your only true church and I do pray to Jesus, worship Him, and call him my Lord and my God, how am i wrong and you right?

You're not wrong. I assume you believe in the trinity, so technically we are praying to the same God. On the other two points I'd say that we agree (minus the trinity stuff).

 

[jonny]

Funny thing. I went to the LDS website to find an article regarding this statement:

I have heard some Mormons do these things even though from what I have learned is that mormon theology does not allow worship of Jesus. If you do pray to, worship, and call Jesus God, then that's great, if not, then I believe we are in disagreement.

I didn't have to look far. The quote on the homepage of www.lds.org from the president of our church is "We do not worship the Prophet [Joseph]. We worship God our Eternal Father and the risen Lord Jesus Christ."

To find out more about what we believe regarding Christ you might want to read this statement the church put out a few years ago:
http://www.lds.org/library/display/0,4945,90-1-10-1,00.html

 

[joeboonda]

In the Bible, Christ taught us that we should pray to our father in heaven. Members of the LDS church pray to our Father in Heaven in the name of the Son.

Yes, the lord's prayer, that is a model, what about when Stephen prayed to Jesus, was that ok? In I Cor 1:1-2 the church calls upon the name of the Lord Jesus. So if they did, can you call upon Jesus, as in Psalm 116:4 Then I called on the name of the Lord: O Lord save me!" Can we call on Jesus to save us, for it was he who died for us, are you ok with that, with asking Jesus to be your Lord and Saviour? If so that is good.

I worship Jesus Christ. Perhaps you should define what you mean by worship though.

Only God is to be worshipped, we shall have no other God's before him, so when Jesus accepted worship, he was showing that he is God. We are to only worship God, you know what worship is, counting one worthy of all your praise, giving Him the glory and honour and power due him, etc.

Jesus Christ is a member of the Godhead. He is the Son of God. He is God just as much as our Heavenly Father and the Holy Ghost are God. I have no problem calling him God, but he is not God the Father.

I agree He is God just as much as our Heavenly Father and the Holy Ghost are God. And there is only one God. I too pray to the Father through the Son, but have no problem praying to Jesus as he is God, part of the Godhead, or what I call trinity.
Glad you liked my question, you will have to ask me a question, again, but, try to ask me just one thing at a time, sometimes people ask a bunch of questions they dont intend to be answered, so, I ususally just handle one at a time.

You're not wrong. I assume you believe in the trinity, so technically we are praying to the same God. On the other two points I'd say that we agree (minus the trinity stuff).[/

Well, good, I simply want to establish that I believe the Father Son and Holy Spirit are God and to be honored equally.QUOTE]

 

[jonny]

I wouldn't have a problem with praying to Christ, but I don't. I was taught to pray to God the Father through Christ because Christ is our intermediary to the Father. I don't really think there is much of a difference - especially to someone who believes in the trinity.

 

[michel]

Kathryn and Jonny, I want to thank you for this thread. Thank you for showing me what a great faith yours is; I am only sorry that you have to face abuse from those who should know better.

 

[jonny]

Hey Michael,

Stay tuned! I plan on making a somewhat detailed response to every one of the comments made and I've still got two pages of stuff left to respond to. I'm glad that someone is reading it.

 

[Aqualung]

Ok, so what I am trying to establish, biblically, is that Jesus was prayed to, worshipped, and called God, in the Bible.

Only God is to be worshipped

Which one is it?