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More love directed at the Mormons!

Discussion in 'Latter-day Saints DIR' started by Katzpur, Sep 15, 2005.

  1. joeboonda

    joeboonda Well-Known Member

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    Oh, THAT post. Now I got what you are talking about. You know, I only quoted out of books written by Mormon leaders, with exact page numbers, that is all (I thot) I did. Of course I will not publicly question the moderators' decision, and am sorry if there was anything inflammatory in my personal remarks in that post.

    Now you say we worship the same God and are saved by the same Saviour, and I agree partly with that. But, the God I worship, I believe has always been God Almighty, never a man, and my Saviour, Jesus Christ, whom I worship is not a created being, half-brother or whatever of Satan, He is Jesus, He is God, Emmanuel or God with us, if you will. So in a way we worship a different God, or at least our concept of him is vastly different. You see, I do not believe that Satan and Jesus had a plan for the salvation of man and that Jesus' was the best, etc. I believe Jesus is God, and that Satan is a created being, now a fallen ANGEL, once the highest angel, but just an angel nonetheless. I believe Jesus was with God from everlasting and Jesus is God and also the Son of God, begotten, not made, God of very God. And I believe the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are the Godhead, they are God. I do not believe God is on the planet Kolob making spririt babies with his many wives, I believe 'Our Father which art in HEAVEN, he is on his throne in Heaven as described in revelation, and Jesus is seated at his right hand. There are just many things I believe differently about God than you all do. I am not trying to say Mormons are bad at all, I am just saying we believe differently, alot due to the fact that I do not believe in any extra-biblical books as being authoritative, God inspired, scripture. I enjoy talking about all this, and want to discuss our similarities and differences in pleasant conversation, and will attempt to do so when I have the time, but there will be many things we will just have to agree to disagree on and respect each other for our different points of view. For example one of your prophets said that dark skinned folks were from a third of the angels that did not fight as valiantly as the other third in the battle in Heaven or something along those lines. I simply do not believe anything close to that. I believe we all came from Adam and Eve, and we were created, our souls were created the moment we were conceived. I know that Joseph Smith was not racist or anything, and that other prophets have come up with new revelations and what not about those things, and you love all people, so I am not saying anything against it, just that I don't believe that way, and I do not believe in on-going revelation as far as new scripture and doctrine. I suppose I am just narrow-minded or whatever, but I can only say, the B-I-B-L-E, yes that's the book for me, I stand alone on the word of God, the B-I-B-L-E. Just a children's song, but a favorite of mine as is 'Jesus Loves Me'. Of course I may be misinformed about some things taught in mormonism, and I look forward to learning more, there's no chance of converting me to those beliefs, but I may get a better understanding, and appreciation of what you are all about. Well, I do know one thing, God loves us and wants us to know the truth, and he cares for us all deeply. I know if we seek the truth with all our hearts, he reveals it to us. I pray that we all grow closer to Him and that we all grow in our love for one another, and in righteousness, and goodness to our fellowman. I love you all, and am glad you do believe in God, and respect and worship him. So many people don't believe in anything and that's what's really sad. At least we are trying. I hope nothing in this post was offensive, and I hope the best for all of us. Look forward to more discussions or just talking about our religions without debating so much. Look forward to any answers to any statements I said, and sorry for the train of consciousness writing. Bye for now.

    Sincerely,

    Joeboonda
     
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  2. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    Without getting into the whole song and dance all over again, I don't believe that is the case. You quoted LDS leaders' remarks out-of-context, and then interpreted these remarks in such a way that they ended up being nothing more than a sacriligious parody of what we really believe. You expressed appreciation to Chick Publications, a well-known anti-Mormon hate-group, for some of the information you posted. And finally, you described my beliefs as "nothing more than Baal worship." Infammatory? I'd say so. To what extent your post was made out of ignorance, I can't possibly guess. Only you and God know the answer to that question.

    I believe I already clarified our belief regarding who or what God may have been "before the beginning," and showed how that belief contradicts nothing the Bible says about Him.

    I also believe that Jesus Christ is my Savior. He was the Creator of our Universe as well as other worlds without number. He is not a created being, but the Only Begotten Son of God the Father. He is also the only means by which we may be forgiven of our sins and reconciled to God. He was God before His birth in Bethlehem and is God today. He lived a perfect life and sacrificed Himself in the ultimate expression of His love for us. If that is "vastly different" from your belief, I'm afraid I'm just too dense to see it.

    God is the Father of the spirits of all of us. We are His offspring. This is entirely Biblical. Lucifer was also one of God's children, a beloved Son of the Father, before He rebelled against Him and was cast out of Heaven. Jesus Christ is spoken of in the Bible as being "the firstborn among many brethren." He is our elder Brother. In the sense that we are all sons and daughters of the same God, we are all brothers and sisters. Before Lucifer forfeited his right to be known as a son of God, he was one, too. He fought against his Father and against his elder Brother. I fail to see how the relationship I have described is so offensive to you.

    Do you believe in the War in Heaven as described in Revelation? Our belief is merely an explanation of how that war came to be. I, too, believe that Jesus is God (although He is not His own Father). I, too, believe that Satan is a created being.

    As do I.

    Nor do I. This is one of the many false statements you made about my beliefs in "that post." If you want to see my response to it, go to the LDS sub-forum and check out post #5 on the "More Love Directed at Mormons" thread.

    I agree, but I also think that you do not correctly understand a great many of my beliefs. That's one reason I recommended the book, How Wide the Divide?

    Yes, I think you're right.

    I'm going to again suggest that you go back and read my post #5 referred to a couple of paragraphs ago.

    I don't either, believe me.

    I also believe that we all descended from Adam and Eve and that we were created. I just believe God created our spirits before our bodies were conceived. I would even be willing to challenge you to a "Bible-only" debate on the subject.

    I realize that, and I can respect it. I just don't believe you have a Biblical precedent for your belief.

    Yes, you really are misinformed. I don't hold that against you, but it's the truth. I realize I'm not going to convert you. I'm not quite that naive! ;) All I have ever wanted to do on this forum is clear up misconceptions. I don't expect to you agree with my beliefs. I would be totally satisfied if I could provide you with an accurate understanding of what they are.

    Yes, we are. And I think that's a very important first step.

    No, nothing in this post was offensive. I look forward to further conversations, too.

    Sincerely,

    Kathryn
     
  3. joeboonda

    joeboonda Well-Known Member

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    Joseph Smith received revelation regarding which church to join and was told to join none of them, they were all wrong and he was to establish God's ONLY TRUE church, thus wiping out 18 centuries of christianity, all from a 14yr old boy.These revelations are the basis for beliefs still taught today. Pres Gordon Hinckley said, "doctrines won't change", but over the years, they have. Brigham Young said about Smith, "Whosoever confesseth that Joseph Smith was sent of God...that spirit is of God; every spirit that does not confess God has sent Joseph Smith, is of Antichrist. There is a document that "proves Joseph Smith was a 'glass looker' and WAS arrested, tried and FOUND GUILTY by a justice of the peace in Bainbridge, NY,in 1826." In Nauvoo Smith joins the Masonic Lodge, explaining many similarities between Mormon and Masonic rituals. Although some would have us believe that Joseph Smith received the temple ceremony by revelation from God, the evidence is againtst it and clearly shows that he borrowed heavily from Masonry. They are persecuted alot, mostly due to the 1831 revelation extablishing the practice of polygamy. Sources differ on how many wives Smith had, a conservative estimate is 20 wives and 47 children. 1844 Smith runs for pres of US. A newspaper started by some excommunicated Mormons, 'The Nauvoo Expositor, exposed the Mormons' polygamous practices and criticized Smith's political aspirations. In essence, the paper put Smith on trial in the eyes of his followers, so a group of Smith's followers broke into the newspaper office, destroyed the press and burned copies of the paper. Joseph and Hyrum were arrested, put in jail in Carthage, and while awaiting trial a mob stormed the jail and killed them. The next pres. Brigham Young gets them to Utah and, in 1890, 59yrs after the first pres/prophet got the revelation authorizing polygamy, another pres/prophet, Wilford Woodruff, rescinded it and six years later Utah becomes a state, convenient.
    Jesus came to america, preached to the ancient inhabitants, instituted the doctrines and practices of his 'true church duly recorded on the golden plates, but the people were destroyed before they could establish the new order, so the world had to wait 1400yrs for this restoration. So the mission is to proclaim the restoration of the priesthood and rituals of the 'true church', and the eligibility for the attainment of deity by all Mormons. The Bible teaches of a falling away, before Christ returns for the church, that the church won't rule and reign until the millenial kingdom that JESUS brings about after the tribulation.
    On the Bible. Your three books are put on a higher plane than the Bible, because these are 'newer' revelation, your 8th article of faith weakens the position of the Bible by saying,"We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God. To say the Bible is the word of God, "as it is translated correctly" allows your leaders to reject the Bible when they wish. Archaeologistsfind no support for the BOM. Qualified sources state "The book is untrue historically and scientifically," and "The Smithsonian Institution has never used the BOM as a scientific guide. Smithsonian archeologists see no direct connection between the archeology of the New World and the subject matter of the book." The BOM has not been found accurate in historical comments either as a guide to exploration or in agreeing with known history. If a book is to guide us in truths about the world we have not yet seen, it should be accurate about the world we have seen. By contrast, the Bible has been used as such a guide in archaeological exploration in the Middle East, particularly in Palestine, has been found to be geographically and historically accurate. Also the Bible was given by GOD to men in their common language, where the BOM ws supposedly translated from Egyptian hieroglyphics.Many verses are stated exactly as in the KJV of the Bible, 1611. The BOM contains at least 25,000 words from the KJV Bible. Many believe the actual basis for the BOM was a book by Solomon Spaulding called Manuscript Found, rather than revelation. This evidence is in the book, Who Really Wrote the Book of Mormon? and includes evidence such as testimonies, handwriting analyses and statements from Smith and Spaulding and their relatives. Another debate is over the Book of Abraham.Many scholars believe and have shown that the original papyrus fragment Joseph Smith used as the basis for the Book of Abraham has been identified and that this fragment is in reality a part of the Egyptian 'Book of Breathings'. It is a pagan text and contains absolutely nothing concerning Abraham or his religion. Wallace Bennett said, " We recognize the Bible's limitations as well as its value. We do not ascribe final authority to any of its statements. Obviously, we do not accept the idea that with the adoption of the present contents of the Bible the Whole canon of scriptures was closed for all time. Anyway, by placing your presidents/prophets as the source of authority in directing the church, you thus put your books above the Bible and reject the Bible as final authority and as such are not in line with biblical Christianity. Paul said even if an angel from heaven came and told you a different gospel, not to believe them.
    On God. Mormons hold doctrines that are contrary to the Bible about God. The Bible teaches God is one yet exists in 3 persons. But your theology is polytheistic, teaching in effect that the universe is inhabited by different gods who procreate spirit children which are in turn clothed with bodies on different planets, Elohim being the god of this planet.Although Brigham's teaching that Adam is our heavenly Father is now officially denied by Mormon authorities, they still hold firm to the belief that our God is a resurrected, glorified man. The Bible says that the Father is SPIRIT Jn 4:24, yet Mormon scripture says "The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man's" Joseph Smith believed God "was once a man as we are now, and is an exalted man." He taught that God once dwelt on a planet as a man and through self-effort He eventually became God. This led Smith to teach that all good Mormons could become gods; "You have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves; to be kings and priests to God, the same as all Gods have done. This theology humanizes God and deifies man. Orson Hyde, a contemporary of Smith and a recognized theologian of the Mormon church, said, "Remember that God, our heavenly Father, was perhaps once a child, and mortal like we ourselves, and rose step by step in the scale of progress, in the school of advancement; has moved forward and overcome, until He has arrived at the point where He now is. Such views reveal that the Mormon scriptures not only add to the Bible, but often contradict what the Bible clearly teaches. God has always been God.
    On Jesus. You teach different than the Bible, you teach that all men existed in eternity as spirit beings before they were given physical bodies, that Christ was simply a spirit being like the rest of us before He came to the earth, On one hand you ascribe deity to Christ and the other bring him down to a human level, mankind is placed on the same level as Christ. Also if He is deity, then you teach polytheism, where we believe in one God in three forms. In Doctrine and Covenants Jesus says I was in the beginning with the Father and am the firstborn...Ye were also in the beginning with the Father. They do teach Christ was created in the same sense that we were, as spirits, and even believe Lucifer was a son of God even as Jesus was a son of God. The Bible, teaches mankind did not exist in eternity past. man did not exist until he was created by God. Gen1:26-27, we were created on the 6th day, of CREATION, by contrast, Jesus was not created; He did exist in eternity, John 1:1,14. Your view of the virgin birth is unscriptural too, Brigham Young said, "He (Christ) was not begotten by the Holy Ghost...Jesus, our elder brother, was begotten in the flesh by the same character that was in the garden of Eden, and who is our Father in Heaven." Jesus is my Lord, not my brother. The Holy Ghost, not God in human form,made Mary conceive. Young taught that Adam, is God, the only GOd worshiped by the Mormons, most Mormons are unaware it was taught throughout his presidency. Ed Decker, a Latter-day Saint for 20 years who is now seeking to reach Mormons with the Gospel, says of the god of the Mormons; "He is said to physically live with his many wives near the star Kolob, where he procreates spirit children with his wives through natural means. Mormonism teaches this god came to earth in the flesh and was the physical father of Jesus." This teaching opposes the scriptural teaching that Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit. Matt. 1:18, lUKE 1:35. It has been taught that Jesus was a polygamist or at least had to marry because in Mormon scripture it says unmarried people, and couples whose marriages are not sealed by the temple endowments, can become only 'angels in heaven," If their marriages are sealed, "Then shall they be gods." If, Christ had not married in this life, He would not rise above the postion of angel. Brigham Young believed Jesus was a polygamist, believed Mary,Martha and Mary Magdalene were his wives. He taught the wedding at Cana was Christ's. Note, Smith and Young were "prophets in the same sense as are Abraham, Moses, Peter, and other such biblical leaders." No where in the Bible does it teach polygamy, although at times men had many wives, this was not God's will Deut. 17:14-18. Instead it teaches one man cleaves to one woman til death separates them. I Cor. 7:1, Tim. 3:2, Titus 1:5-6.

    Sincerely,

    Joeboonda
     
  4. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    Joe,

    You actually believe everything you read, don't you?

    I'm disappointed in you, but not particularly surprised. I extended the olive branch. You chose to knock it out of my hand. For some reason, I was naive enough to think you had actually had a change of heart and were sincere in wanting to understand my beliefs. I should have known better.

    Your last post is full of lies and half-truths, with information gleaned from anti-Mormon websites. Are you even aware that you did not ask one single question? You simply proceded to tell us what we believe. How arrogant is that!

    I will not stoop to your level and I won't dignify your rantings with a response. You go ahead and believe whatever you want to about us. Jonny and Aqualung and I have generously offered to engage in a respectful dialogue with you. Apparently, you are either unwilling or incapable of doing so.

    Kathryn
     
  5. Aqualung

    Aqualung Tasty

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    You continually preach the straight and narrow path. Wouldn't Christ's actual church, not some man-made denomination, be part of that straith and narrow path? Meaning that there would only be one true church? Since the path is that narrow?
    Actually, technically it was from a couple thousand year old angel... but, whatever
    And shouldn't they be? Or is god an ever-changing God?
    In the same vein, anybody who can truely say that they know Moses was a true prophet of God is speaking by the spirit of God, whereas anybody who would deny his divine mission contrary to what he knows it denying God.
    I don't think he was found guilty. But when people don't like you, they'll arrest you, whether or not you're guilty.
    There are similarities between all religions and mormonism. There's also a lot of similarities between your BAptist (?) religion and all other religiouns, whether or not you choose to recognize that.
    What temple ceremony are you referring to, what are the rituals involved in that, and what masonic ritual does that correlate to?
    And of course that means they're devilish! :rolleyes: I guess people like Peter or Paul were devils, too, considering the amount of persecution they suffered for their God.
    I'm sure jonny has said this before (because he likes this bit of evidence :D), Abraham was a polygamist. Soloman had a ton of wives. Polygamy has frequently been sanctioned by the Lord to fulfill his purposes.
    A "conservative estimate?" Could you give the source of that estimate? (By the way, I know how many wives he had. Does it matter? Is abraham no longer a prophet of God? What if polygamy were the only true test of prophet-hood?!:eek: )
    Really? If that's even true (which I don't know one way or the other, since I'm not well versed in his personal history, just in the doctrines of the church), I didn't know it said in the Bible that if a man ran for president it meant that his religion was the Devil's religion. Maybe you could point out that scriptural passage to me?
    "Some" excommunicated mormons? Who were these mormons? Why were they excommunicated?
    I'm not very well versed in his history. Somebody else will have to answer that one.
    That, at least, is true.
    Did you know christians have commandments from Jesus to obey their governments and be subject to their kings? In other words, did you know that you are arguing in favour of them being at least somewhat christian, instead of in the opposite direction, as I'm sure you were hoping?
    Please tell me where in the Bible it states that Jesus only loves the people who happened who be living in the area of Jerusalem? I'm sure you've read the Bible. Surely you've read about the scatterings of the Jewish people? Surely, God and Jesus would love all of their chosen enough to preach to the ones who are scattered, as well.
    :confused:
    Actually, it says that the restoration will happen before Christ returns. I'll find the reference in a bit.
     
  6. Aqualung

    Aqualung Tasty

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    No they aren't. We call the BoM the keystone to our religion because without it, we have no religion. But we don't think it's better. We think it's a better translation, because it was only translated once (not a bunch of different times between a bunch of different languages and a bunch of different records). As it says in Preach my Gospel, the missionary's guide book, "Far from competing with the Bible, the Book of Mormon supports it, exhorts us to read it, and testifies of the truthfulnesss of its message. You should use the Book of Mormon and the Bible to support one another." We know that both have value, and they need each other.
    Not true. In fact, the Joseph Smith Translation of the Bible clearifies all the parts where mistranslations mess things up. Those are the only parts where a mormon could truthfully claim that it was a mistranslation.
    Not true, also. But this is certainly not my forte.
    I'm not even going to adress things you don't cite. :banghead3
    Really not surprising, seeing as how it was not written by scientists, nor meant to be a historical book to such a fine degree.
    That's because it was actually written as a history with all the accompanying details.
    who then wrote it down in their native language, so that when English speakers like me want to read it, it had to be translated. The same is true about the BoM. It was written in their common language, and then it had to be translated for us English speakers to be able to understand it.
    Reformed egyptian.
    Are any of those words "the?" Did you know Jesus quoted from the OT? Is the NT false, therefore, and all of Jesus's teachings? Is it more feasible for Jesus to come to his chosen people in this continent and preach a totally different gospel, or to preach the same one? Since God is unchanging, shouldn't it be the same?
    Oh, well, then, of course it's true! :rolleyes:
    Yes, I've heard that one. Once again, not my forte.
    I think jonny has a quote in his RF webpage about how one of the prophets told us how we could know if something is true or false. One of the ways of knowing if things are false is if they contradict any of the standard works. One of the standard works is the Bible. That means that if what a prophet tells us contradicts the Bible, we shouldn't believe it.
    True. This thread is specifically for figuring out if the BoM contradicts the gospel taught in the bible. So far, all you have told me was that they haven't found the cities mentioned in the BoM, or that, like Abraham, Joseph Smith had many wives. I hope the rest of this lengthy post actually adresses this. (Well, I guess not "this thread" anymore, since these have gotten moved around to about 50 billion different threads since yesterday... We have very "trigger happy" moderators, don't we. :D)
    No it doesn't.
    Not really. We don't say nor un-say that there may be gods in other universes or whatever. But we do not, have not, and will not ever worship those others gods. Polytheism is generally the worship of more than one god. I could care less if there are other gods, and it really changes nothing.
    I don't know where they church says the other gods are, or even if it says there are other gods.
    Elohim was Christ and Heavenly Father.
    Then why bring it up?
    so? Does that change the fact that he is our God, the literal father of our spirits, our creator?
    okay, so there's one verse that says that. What about all these? http://scriptures.lds.org/tgg/gdbdycrp
    Perhaps. That's a funny word.
    Cite where exactly in the Bible it says that those things are not true.
    Tell me where it says that he wasn't. Because if that actually contradicts the Bible, that means it's in there.
    Don't you think he came down to earth in the form of a human? Isn't that "bring[ing] him down to a human level"?
    Well, once again, you'll have to look at what I said about polytheism earlier.
    Yes, I know.
    So? If your brother went to prison for murder, would that in any way make you a murderer too?
    MAN did not exist. It says nothing about his spirit, or the stuff his spirit was made out of.
    Yes, I know that.
    Jesus christ was born of a virgin. Obviously, you can't be a virgin after you've had sex. God did not have sex with mary.
    Mine too.
     
  7. Aqualung

    Aqualung Tasty

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    He's my spirit brother, but not my brother in the flesh.
    I know that.
    You just said earlier something to the effect that what young taugh didn't matter anymore becuase it isn't accepted. Which is it? stop contradicting yourself.
    That is absolute nonsense and not taught by anybody in the church.
    A) Un married people won't just become "angels in heaven."
    B) The fact that Jesus took upon him the sins of this world to save us would certainly make up for it if it didn't get married.
    C) Where does it say in the Bible, "Jesus died unmarried."
    ACtually, you can do by proxy marriages for the dead. [​IMG]
    Good for him. That's his belief.
    Prophets aren't always prophets. At some times, they just speak their own mind.
     
  8. jonny

    jonny Well-Known Member

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    I wanted to respond to a few of your points. I'd like to know your sources - you certainly didn't get this stuff off the top of your head. It seems awfully familiar (the packet that the southern baptists put out a few years back when they came to Utah to "save" the Mormons...).

    You mentioned the Smithsonian Institute's form letter that it used to send out in the past. You'll be happy to know that the form letter that they send out now is much different. It states:

    The institution claims that they have never used the Book of Mormon for research, so any statement that it previously made that it wasn't true has no basis.
     
  9. jonny

    jonny Well-Known Member

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    As for your comments on Joseph Smith, isn't it amazing that the vision of a 14-year-old boy has inspired millions of people to lead better lives over the past 200 years? I'm certain that when he went into that grove of trees that he wasn't planning on starting the largest religious movement in American history. The truthfulness of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints rests on the testimony of a 14-year-old child. You either believe him or you don't. I can't blame you for not believing him. Even he said, "I don't blame any one for not believing my history. If I had not experienced what I have, I could not have believed it myself."

    Joseph Smith was arrested for being a glass looker. He was arrested for treasure seeking and using peep stones. If you're really interested in reading about it, the documents and trial information are posted here: http://www.fairlds.org/pubs/conf/2002AndR.html. If he were found guilty it wouldn't surprise me since he claims to have found the gold plates and translated them using the urim and thummin.

    It isn't a secret that the excommunicated members were pissed off and started a paper called the Nauvoo Expositor. Only one issue of the paper was printed. After the uproar that it started in the community, the city council was brought together and determined that it was a "public nuisance" and that the press should be shut down. The "group of Smith's followers" that destroyed the paper was the city marshall. It was wrong to do so, but if you look at American history, people didn't really care about civil rights back in the 1840s.

    Your claim that this paper exposed polygamy is false. The situation with the paper was in 1844. You yourself claimed that polygamy was started in 1831 (I'm not checking the date because I assume you checked your sources). Do you really think that Joseph Smith could keep his alleged 20 wives and 47 children a secret for 13 years?!?

    Joseph Smith did run for president. I don't know why this is an issue. He was murdered before the election though.

    I'm not sure exactly what the purpose of dragging out the dirt on Joseph Smith is (but I could guess). It doesn't really prove anything other than he was human. We revere and honor our prophets, but we have never claimed that they were perfect humans. Look through the Bible at examples of leaders making mistakes. Do the mistakes of Abraham, Moses, Jonah, and Peter undermine their authority from God?
     
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  10. jonny

    jonny Well-Known Member

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    You mentioned that the church got rid of polygamy so that Utah could become a state. So what? Polygamy was never permanent - this is clear in our scriptures. I believe that it was important for the church that it be in the United States.

    The 12th Article of Faith states that we believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, magistrates and in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law. We are under the authority of earthly governments in this life. The church tries to follow the laws of the lands where it is located. I will leave the judgement of the government leaders to the Lord.
     
  11. jonny

    jonny Well-Known Member

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    One last thing you mentioned regarding the history of the church was regaring masonic symbolism in temple ceremonies. I will not get into specifics (and I hope that any specifics that are posted will be promptly removed by moderators), but I will make a few comments regarding the sybolism in the temple.

    You say that he borrowed "heavily" from Free Masonry. I would disagree. I have participated in plenty of temple ceremonies and the vast majority of the ceremony can be found in Genesis 1-3, Moses 2-4, and Abraham 4-5. In fact, much of it word-for-word from the scriptures. Interestingly, if you research ancient religious ceremonies, many of them focused on the creation. Sure, the rites and ceremonies seem strange to people who are not familiar with them, but if you think about it, eating bread and water to represent a body and blood and being dunked in water to show your commitment to a faith could also seem strange from an outsider looking in.

    This is a quote from the Encyclopedia of Mormonism:

    You can read a lot more on the subject at this link...if you're really interested. If you're just interested in posting information and running and hiding, you probably won't look into it.
    http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/FQ_masons.shtml
     
  12. jonny

    jonny Well-Known Member

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    Dang it. They keep moving this thread around so I lost my last post.

    Anyway, I was addressing the issues you brought up regarding the premortal life not being biblical. Read these scriptures and decide for yourself whose beliefs are biblical.

    Jeremiah 1:5 - "Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations."

    Not only did God know him before he was in the womb, but he was somehow sanctified and ordained to be a prophet.

    Job 38:1-7 - Job is told here that the Sons of God shouted for joy when the world was created. Kinda hard to do if we didn't exist...

    Ecclesiastes 12:7 - In this scripture we learn that our spirits will return to God. Can you explain how we can return to a place we've never been?

    John 9:1-3 - Here Christ is asked who sinned that a man was born blind - the man or his parents. How could someone sin before they were born? Christ didn't seem to have an issue with that portion of the question. Is it possible that he knew that the man existed before this life?

    William de Arteaga (not a Mormon) in Past Life Visions: A Christian Exploration stated:

     
  13. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    I already challenged joeboonda to a debate on this topic, jonny -- using the Bible alone as evidence. As usual, he ignored me. I guess it's just a lot easier to criticize someone else's beliefs than it is to defend your own.
     
  14. jonny

    jonny Well-Known Member

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    Your quote from Ed Decker made me laugh. If he really believes that he is going to reach out to Mormons by propogating that crap he's got something coming. The only people who he'll reach are those who are investigating the faith or who are ignorant to the church's teachings. I'll start depending on ex-Mormons for truth about my church as soon as you start believing the teachings of ex-Christians regarding your religion.

    Anyway, I'm done for the night. You have yet to post anything that hasn't been printed in a billion anti-Mormon books over and over again. Can't you guys think up anything new? :)

    Later,

    Jon
     
  15. Sunstone

    Sunstone De Diablo Del Fora
    Premium Member

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    Don't worry, Jonny: Things should settle down now (I've run out of ideas where to move your thread, so I'll just leave it here). Sorry for the inconveinence.
     
  16. Aqualung

    Aqualung Tasty

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    Oooh, "Jon." Aaw, Katzpur, it looks like our little jonny has grown up.


    :biglaugh: I'm sorry. I couldn't help it. :biglaugh:
     
  17. FFH

    FFH Veteran Member

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    This thread is making me dizzy. This is a perfect example of why we should never get into deep church doctrine in a setting like this. As a missionary we were told never to get into deep doctine with people not of our faith. It should only be done in a sunday school setting in a church with an opening and closing prayer. The Devil is all around and will confuse the subject and cause contention. STICK TO TH BASICS and let the Holy Ghost prick peoples hearts to learn more by first talking with the missionaries and then studying it on their own. Lead them to Christ and his teachings and then build on that. Deep doctrines should not be discussed here with people not of our faith and maybe not even amongst ourselves in this forum.

    I like the statement Latter Day followers of Moron. This finally made me laugh today. I think he is crying out for truth and love. I wish I could talk to him.
     
  18. Aqualung

    Aqualung Tasty

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    Some people don't work like that. I would have never been baptised if my missionaries had so rigidly refused to discuss the deeper doctrine. The simple stuff is just that - simple, and most christians can agree with that. Most christians only have contention with the rest of it, so that's the stuff they need to learn about. Plus, if people have such misconceptions, should we just refuse to address them and leave them in their misconceptions? I don't think we should. We should set them right, and if they have problems with the correct doctrine, that's when they need to pray for understanding.
     
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  19. Aqualung

    Aqualung Tasty

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    Is he his own grandpa?
     
  20. joeboonda

    joeboonda Well-Known Member

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    Hi, enjoyed the answers to my post. I was sick yesterday, and still am, and when I wrote my post, I had gone WAY over the amount of characters allowed, so I had to edit it and take out a LOT of my explanations and other facts I wanted to share. I had to cut it in half, and my son needed the computer for a homework assignment, so I had to just delete a bunch of stuff and leave it how it is which was not at all what I wanted, but, oh well.

    I was kinda going through some background of your religion and doctrine and thought I would just put it out there for some feedback. I enjoyed your replies, I am glad you stand up for your religion. I am sick, so I can't really talk to much now. I enjoyed Jonny's scriptures about how we may have been spirits before we were born. I have ideas of my own about those scriptures, but I know you believe we were spirits before birth, so I agree to disagree on that. I wanted to say, to Katzpur, that I am not trying to ignore you or be mean, so please don't be mad. I don't have much time to spend here and I have a difficult time keeping up with everything I have posted and going back and reading any replies. And I am not good at those little quote bubbles yet either, lol. All I can say is I am trying, I dont want you to be mad at me, I am not trying to make anyone angry, I love you all and religion can be a touchy thing, when debating beliefs we can take it too personally, and I do not want to upset anyone. If I say something to upset anyone, I don't mean to, we can debate amicably can't we? Sometimes I have not time to answer hundreds of questions asked on all the threads here, I will try to do my best, but be patient with me, I was off for a few months at one point.

    Regarding my last hacked up post, one thing that kept jumping out at me, was that Joseph Smith and Brigham Young, and others of authority to proclaim newly revealed doctrines, would say one thing, and then, later on, another president or prophet would change the doctrine. This happenned with polygamy and the issue with people of color. I don't know why there should be so many changes if they were given by revelation from God. Many times Mormons will say, well we certainly do not believe that way on certain doctrines and such, but they were the very doctrines of Smith and Young. Anyway, I enjoyed your answers, I will try to discuss more things in the future.

    One question, I have often wondered what groups that use extra-biblical books as authority think of each others' revelations. Like what would a follower of Joseph Smith's revelations think of revelations given to Mary Baker Eddie, or Ellen G. White. Would you consider the doctrines of a Christian Scientist, a Seventh Day Adventist, or a Jehovah's Witness to all be true revelations from God, and do they all agree with each other? It would be cool to see how you all believe about that. I cannot really say, because I believe in the Bible only, but I would be interested in folks views on other folks extra-biblical revelations.

    I will offer one tidbit of what I believe, not to be too long, so I will use a verse in Hebrews 2:3-4 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him; God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his will?

    From my point of view, this verse says we have a so great salvation, first spoken by the Lord, and he had signs, wonders and miracles to show he was telling the truth. This is true of the apostles, when they told the Jews that Christ rose from the dead, and was the Messiah, signs, wonders, and miracles followed so people would know it was the truth from God. Once we had the Biblical cannon written down, it seems, historically that these confirming gifts ceased, although not all the gifts of the Holy Spirit ceased, these seem to have (to me, not to charismatics and others). It seems that God, when ushering in a new 'age' always uses something supernatural to show ppl we are going into that new age. I would expect there confirming signs and miracles following new revelation also. Was there any, that were witnessed by a lot of people when you received your three books? I am interested to hear of them, if you can get back to me on that.

    Ok, well, I will get back later, I am sooo sick, gonna browse a bit and go.

    Best wishes,

    Joeboonda
     
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