more and more christians believe in karma and reincarnation

[Windwalker]

The centurion wasn't a pagan once he believed in Jesus.

I'm sorry, what? What was he then after he came to Jesus to request his son be healed? A Christian?? They didn't exist back then. Did he become a disciple and follow Jesus around? Scripture doesn't teach that, nor does that make any sense whatsoever, as he was not a Jew. Did he become a Jew? Did he quit the Roman guard and swear off worship to Caesar?? What on earth do you imagine he was after he came to Jesus then? Of course the answer is, he remained a pagan.

But my real point was, he was a pagan who could see God! Period. This is proof you don't have to be part of the "true religion" and have correct theology, in order to recognize and respond to God! He is proof of that.

And what Jesus said here isn't about those of a religion per say but those who were Jewish but not true believers.

Same difference. How many call themselves Christian, yet think that everyone else is lost, while it's the "unsaved" who bear spiritual fruits while they themselves do not? "By their fruits you shall know them." And Jesus showed this time and again by saying those whom the religion rejects as "lost", or "apostate", are actually doing God's will by loving and having faith, even while their ideas of God and beliefs are not "church approved doctrine", so to speak.

The centurion is commended for his faith. Faith in who? Not in some idol. Didn't you notice that he accepted Jesus as his Lord?

He did? Where does it say he became a Christian in this passage?

When Jesus had entered Capernaum, a centurion came to him, asking for help. 6 “Lord,” he said, “my servant lies at home paralyzed, suffering terribly.”

7 Jesus said to him, “Shall I come and heal him?”

8 The centurion replied, “Lord, I do not deserve to have you come under my roof. But just say the word, and my servant will be healed. 9 For I myself am a man under authority, with soldiers under me. I tell this one, ‘Go,’ and he goes; and that one, ‘Come,’ and he comes. I say to my servant, ‘Do this,’ and he does it.”

10 When Jesus heard this, he was amazed and said to those following him, “Truly I tell you, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith. 11 I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. 12 But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

13 Then Jesus said to the centurion, “Go! Let it be done just as you believed it would.” And his servant was healed at that moment.​

No. I don't see it. That he called him "Lord", is not him saying "Thou art the Christ!", for goodness sake. Not even his disciples recognized that yet. It just simply is an honorific title to a master, not a confession he believe Jesus was the Jewish messiah. Tell me you don't read it that way, do you? Do you see him confessing Jesus as the messiah here?

As I said before we are responsible for what we know.
Once he knew who Jesus was, he was responsible for responding to that knowledge. He wasn't saved as a pagan.

The story mentions nothing whatsoever about him converting to a new religion. The only point of it was this. That even a Pagan could see God in the world, where the most "true believing" religionist could not. Therefore, like so many other passages in the NT, Jesus concludes with this. That outsiders, non-religionists, those who are seen as worshipping "false gods", are able to see God and respond, whereas the religionists who is self-assured that they are in God's graces because they have the "right beliefs", are left out of the kingdoms because they cannot see God, despite their proclamation of faith.

 

[Wildswanderer]

God will is to Love. Those that love are following God's will.

No one can love like God unless they first have a relationship with him.

Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
2
This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God,
3
but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.


Do atheists acknowledge Jesus coming in the flesh and dying for them?

Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love. This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only Son into the world that we might live through him. This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins.

God's love is Agape= ἀγάπη, is a Greco-Christian term referring to "love"; the highest form of love, charity", and "the love of God for man and of man for God".

No one can have this love without God for as scripture says, the natural man cannot understand spiritual things.

 

[Wildswanderer]

I'm sorry, what? What was he then after he came to Jesus to request his son be healed? A Christian?? They didn't exist back then. Did he become a disciple and follow Jesus around? Scripture doesn't teach that, nor does that make any sense whatsoever, as he was not a Jew. Did he become a Jew? Did he quit the Roman guard and swear off worship to Caesar?? What on earth do you imagine he was after he came to Jesus then? Of course the answer is, he remained a pagan.

But my real point was, he was a pagan who could see God! Period. This is proof you don't have to be part of the "true religion" and have correct theology, in order to recognize and respond to God! He is proof of that.


Same difference. How many call themselves Christian, yet think that everyone else is lost, while it's the "unsaved" who bear spiritual fruits while they themselves do not? "By their fruits you shall know them." And Jesus showed this time and again by saying those whom the religion rejects as "lost", or "apostate", are actually doing God's will by loving and having faith, even while their ideas of God and beliefs are not "church approved doctrine", so to speak.


He did? Where does it say he became a Christian in this passage?

When Jesus had entered Capernaum, a centurion came to him, asking for help. 6 “Lord,” he said, “my servant lies at home paralyzed, suffering terribly.”

7 Jesus said to him, “Shall I come and heal him?”

8 The centurion replied, “Lord, I do not deserve to have you come under my roof. But just say the word, and my servant will be healed. 9 For I myself am a man under authority, with soldiers under me. I tell this one, ‘Go,’ and he goes; and that one, ‘Come,’ and he comes. I say to my servant, ‘Do this,’ and he does it.”

10 When Jesus heard this, he was amazed and said to those following him, “Truly I tell you, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith. 11 I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. 12 But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

13 Then Jesus said to the centurion, “Go! Let it be done just as you believed it would.” And his servant was healed at that moment.​

No. I don't see it. That he called him "Lord", is not him saying "Thou art the Christ!", for goodness sake. Not even his disciples recognized that yet. It just simply is an honorific title to a master, not a confession he believe Jesus was the Jewish messiah. Tell me you don't read it that way, do you? Do you see him confessing Jesus as the messiah here?


The story mentions nothing whatsoever about him converting to a new religion. The only point of it was this. That even a Pagan could see God in the world, where the most "true believing" religionist could not. Therefore, like so many other passages in the NT, Jesus concludes with this. That outsiders, non-religionists, those who are seen as worshipping "false gods", are able to see God and respond, whereas the religionists who is self-assured that they are in God's graces because they have the "right beliefs", are left out of the kingdoms because they cannot see God, despite their proclamation of faith.

The Centurion understood that Jesus was Lord over everything, including sicknesses, so all He had to do was speak a word and his servant would be healed.

“Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God” (Romans 10:17)

Jesus was the original Word.
The Centurion had faith in the word that would be spoken. He told Jesus, “all you need to do is speak.”
The Bible says that “faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God”(Romans 10:17). So, the only way to ever have faith, we must first learn to receive the seed of faith which is the Word of God.

If you pay close attention to the passage of the centurion, you will find that he did this, perhaps without even realizing it.

“Now when Jesus had entered Capernaum, a centurion came to Him, pleading with Him, saying, “Lord, my servant is lying at home paralyzed, dreadfully tormented” (Matthew 8:5-6).

The only reason the centurion would come straight to Jesus is that he heard of Him, and he believed in Him. Not only did the centurion believe in who Jesus was, but he also believed that he was able to heal the sick, including his servant.

It doesn't matter that according to some arbitrary line, you think Christians didn't exist yet. People have always been saved by faith alone.

 

[Windwalker]

Of course you have to believe in specific " ideas" about God.

Thank you for finally coming out and saying this. I've known all along you believe this, but you've been skirting around saying it directly. Now that this is out on the table let's consider the legitimacy of it.

Whose specific ideas are the requirements for God "letting you into heaven", as you like to put it? Your ideas? My ideas? Furthermore, you ideas when you were what age? Your ideas when you were five? When you were fifteen? When you were 30? You do realize that our ideas change all the time, as new information comes along, as we grow and change as people, don't you? What then is the 'standard belief (meaning "specific ideas about God"), that must be adhered to in order for God to accept you as his child?

Now, I expect you will respond, "The Bible's ideas!". But that is not valid. Whatever the Bible says on its pages, does not interpret itself. You and I must interpret the words and give them meaning. This is true even for someone standing right in front of you and telling you their thoughts firsthand. You still have to interpret them with your own mind. As do I. As does every single human being who has ever lived. Nothing goes directly into the brain bypassing this interpretive process we each must do.

It is therefore impossible that for there to be only one way to interpret the Bible. You and I can read the same verse of scripture, yet have entirely different understandings of them. Our discussion here is clear evidence of that being true! The reason for why I see it so differently than you is the context through which I interpret it. I see it through a different lens than you do. I have more information I consider its words with, more experience, more history, that you do not have. Therefore, how I understand it will be considerably different.

To you, it means what you've come to believe it to mean. For instance, you interpret "belief" in scripture to mean specific ideas about God. Yet, I've shown you that that is not how John was using the word belief. You didn't address that with any challenge, yet you still see God through this lens that "correct belief" is what is required for God to "let you into heaven".

I'll address more on this later in future responses.

You can't believe on someone if you don't know who they are.

But they can know who God is without a lesson in church doctrines and beliefs. "The invisible things of him through the creation are clearly seen and made known, even his eternal power and godhead". There are no specific beliefs there at all. In fact, one can see and know God, not ever having heard the word "God" mentioned to them. They know it internally, through their own internal witness. They can see it in the world, through nature. They can sense it in others, and so forth.

You can't have a relationship with someone who doesn't exist.

You can have a relationship with eternal Love, because it exists and anyone who is alive can experience that, if they are opened to it. You don't have to have some preacher read the Bible to you in order to know that firsthand, without them being there telling it to you.

So you have to believe in the real Jesus not one you invented in your mind.

Anything we imagine or think about God conceptually, is all an invention in your mind.

 

[Windwalker]

You just quoted a verse that condemns people for not believing! Thanks for agreeing with me.

Not believing what? A specific idea about God? A certain theology? You missed the point.

 

[Wildswanderer]

You can have a relationship with eternal Love, because it exists and anyone who is alive can experience that, if they are opened to it.

Belief only comes from the Word.
"Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ."

Not any other word

"Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God."

This is from the chapter about how we are to love each other.
It's addressed to believers. You can't have real love without believing in Christ. You can't abide in God and worship demons which is what every false religion does in reality... they just don't know it in most cases.

 

[Wildswanderer]

Not believing what? A specific idea about God? A certain theology? You missed the point.

For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile. 17 For in the gospel the righteousness of God is revealed—a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith.”

Absolutely it's a certain theology.
It's not deism, it's not Buddhism or Hinduism or any other ism.

It's only found in the gospel, according to the same chapter that you quoted from.
You already know what the gospel is.
At the time of Jesus, the gospel was about the moment in history when, through the long-awaited Messiah, the kingdom of God had come to earth. The good news was the good news of the kingdom. By the time the epistles were written, the term "gospel" had taken on a new shade of understanding. It had become the gospel of Jesus Christ. At the heart of this gospel was the announcement of who Jesus was and what He had accomplished in His lifetime.
That's what we are obligated to believe in.

 

[Windwalker]

No one can love like God unless they first have a relationship with him.

Then they must have a relationship with God. That you can't recognize it because it doesn't "believe" doctrinally in the ways you do, is totally your failing. You should be able to discern the real thing when you see it, unless you let your ideas get it the way of seeing and hearing, as Jesus pointed out.

Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.

Exactly. Test the spirits. Don't just take them at their word they are followers of Jesus. What fruits are they bearing? That's how you test them. "By their fruits you shall know them", not by their doctrines, beliefs, or claims to faith.

2
This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God,
3
but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.

None of this has anything to do with people who have never heard of Jesus, nor anything to do with those who reject the Jesus that these false prophets preach. Atheists nowadays, are well within their rights to reject the God that so many of these hypocritical Christians preach. You know, the Jesus who hates immigrants and the poor. "Build that wall!", Jesus, for instance. Everyone is well within their rights to reject that Jesus.

Do atheists acknowledge Jesus coming in the flesh and dying for them?

I do not believe that verse can be used to send people who have a genuine grievance with Christianity to hell. Whose Jesus are they rejecting?

That verse from the author who wrote 1 Timothy in the 2nd century was speaking of the gnostics of that time period who taught Jesus was not a real human being. It has nothing to do with those who slam the door on irrational, unloving religious hypocrisies. It has to do with Christian competitors who that author wanted to call out as heretics. (Paul didn't actually write that epistle: 1 Timothy )

Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love

Exactly! And the reverse is also true, "Whoever loves, knows God, because God is love". Amen. You make my point for me. Thank you.

God's love is Agape= ἀγάπη, is a Greco-Christian term referring to "love"; the highest form of love, charity", and "the love of God for man and of man for God".

No one can have this love without God for as scripture says, the natural man cannot understand spiritual things.

I agree. Therefore, those who do this, clearly have God in their lives. Including all those you send to hell because they don't think the same thoughts about God that you do. I have to ask you, is that what you think Agape love does?

 

[Koldo]

More and more christians believe in karma and reincarnation

Why are Christians adopting Hindu karma & reincarnation ? | Jeffrey Armstrong | Vedic Vidya | India - YouTube

Very interesting video

A question to all. Why do more and more christians believe in karma and reincarnation? What is the reason?

Explanatory power, even though evidence is lacking. Which is an improvement over the garden of Eden story considering evidence actually contradicts it.

 

[Windwalker]

The Centurion understood that Jesus was Lord over everything, including sicknesses, so all He had to do was speak a word and his servant would be healed.

He did? This sounds like something you read in someone's commentary somewhere. I think that is a bit of a stretch to say he saw him as the "lord over everything". That's reading quite a lot into the text. But regardless of that, he was a pagan and he could recognize God moving in Jesus. Something you say is impossible. You say without the Holy Spirit, we could not recognize God. So my point still stands here.

“Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God” (Romans 10:17)

Sure, it can come by hearing scripture spoken. But that is not the only way. Obviously it wasn't for the Centurion, nor for countless other souls who have found God without your local preacher pounding on his pulpit.

The Bible says that “faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God”(Romans 10:17). So, the only way to ever have faith, we must first learn to receive the seed of faith which is the Word of God.

Does it say the "only way" to have faith is by hearing scripture preached? I don't believe it does, and it certainly would not be true. Romans 1:20 says that through simply looking at nature, one can understanding the nature of the eternal godhead! Unless you mean to say that nature is "God's Word"? With that I wouldn't disagree. But I don't think you mean that. I think you mean the Bible is "God's Word". I don't limit it that way. Do you?

If you pay close attention to the passage of the centurion, you will find that he did this, perhaps without even realizing it.

“Now when Jesus had entered Capernaum, a centurion came to Him, pleading with Him, saying, “Lord, my servant is lying at home paralyzed, dreadfully tormented” (Matthew 8:5-6).

The only reason the centurion would come straight to Jesus is that he heard of Him, and he believed in Him. Not only did the centurion believe in who Jesus was, but he also believed that he was able to heal the sick, including his servant.

The centurion believed that Jesus had power with God, not "who he was" in the sense of the Messiah, or some other such thing. He was a pagan. He would have thought in the language and understanding of a pagan. And so he would have seen Jesus as some sort of a god, or something. However he saw him, it is highly unlikely it would have been in terms of the Hebrew scriptures! He was not a Jew.

And that is my point. Even though he would have seen Jesus in pagan terms, Jesus honored his faith! He didn't have to get it right theologically! God looks at the heart, not at the "right ideas" in someone's head. Do you understand this now?

It doesn't matter that according to some arbitrary line, you think Christians didn't exist yet. People have always been saved by faith alone.

They didn't exist yet. Jesus was still alive. And yes, people have always been saved by faith, whether they were Jews, or pagans, harlots, or tax collectors, righteous religionists, or even atheists who don't believe in an ontological theological deity. So long as they embrace that agape love, that unconditional divine love through faith, that makes them as Jesus put it, "my brother and sister and mother.” Sorry you don't want to accept these outcasts whom God embraces as they embrace Love, while the religionist rejects them because of their beliefs or different ideas about God.

 

[Windwalker]

Absolutely it's a certain theology.

"By their fruits you shall know them"
"By their theology you shall know them"

Which one is biblical, and which one is not? What you are teaching, is not the Gospel.

 

[Windwalker]

Absolutely it's a certain theology.
It's not deism, it's not Buddhism or Hinduism or any other ism.

So out of curiosity, those of other religions who love as Jesus taught to love, are they just **** out of luck because they didn't have the right beliefs in addition to their love?

Will God say, "Yeah, you did my will, but because you believed in the Buddha instead of Jesus, well, I'm sorry I just can't let you into heaven, because you know, the rules are the rules. Love is not enough to cut it with me. You got to have the right theology too. If you don't have the right theology, your love for others is unacceptable to me."

Do you see God like this? Does this sound like the Love of God to you?

 

[ajay0]

The Romans didn't write the Bible. Nor is there any evidence that they altered the Bible. That's fiction.

After the brutal persecution of the Christians by the romans for centuries, they finally accepted christianity , and compiled and editted the christian scriptures available then in the councils of nicaea and constantinople. The earlier persecution itself had wiped out many Christian theologians and scholars along with much of the scriptures so there was not much available body of literature and knowledge of the original body of Christianity, when they were studied and researched during the Councils.

The Arian controversy was also proof of differing theological viewpoints.

The bible hence resembles much of a jigsaw puzzle with much of the original pieces missing, which results in incoherence as a whole, and which has resulted in large-scale skepticism in recent times where logic and rational inquiry has become well-established.

Also much of the pagan festivals were transplanted into Christianity. For example Christmas was originally a roman pagan festival and there is no evidence that this was the birthday of Christ.

Nietzche was highly critical of Christianity for what he termed as its foolishness and slave morality which he contrasted with Roman master morality as he put it. Imo, the issue is that the romans themselves editted the bible so as to implant the 'slave morality ' as Nietzche put it, amongst the Christians so that they would be more accepting of Roman authority.

 

[Wildswanderer]

None of this has anything to do with people who have never heard of Jesus, nor anything to do with those who reject the Jesus that these false prophets preach. Atheists nowadays, are well within their rights to reject the God that so many of these hypocritical Christians preach. You know, the Jesus who hates immigrants and the poor. "Build that wall!", Jesus, for instance. Everyone is well within their rights to reject that Jesus.

Seriously? I quoted a verse explicitly saying you have to believe in a literal Jesus to be saved and you say the exact opposite? You are simply a false teacher... and I'm done with you.

 

[Wildswanderer]

romans for centuries, they finally accepted christianity , and compiled and editted the christian scriptures available then in the councils of nicaea and constantinople. The earlier persecution itself had wiped out many Christian theologians and scholars along with much of the scriptures so there was not much available body of literature and knowledge of the original body of Christianity, when they were studied and researched during the Councils.

Apparently you get your history from Dan brown fiction books. This is completely inaccurate.

The scripture they confirmed was the same scripture that the church had been using all along

 

[Wildswanderer]

But regardless of that, he was a pagan and he could recognize God moving in Jesus. Something you say is impossible. You say without the Holy Spirit, we could not recognize God. So my point still stands here.

Of course he was convinced by the Spirit. No one comes to God without the Spirit's working. We can also reject him, however as God's chosen people often did.

 

[Windwalker]

Seriously? I quoted a verse explicitly saying you have to believe in a literal Jesus to be saved and you say the exact opposite?

What you quoted was specifically written against the gnostics of the 2nd century who believed Jesus could not have been a flesh and blood human being, because he was a spirit only. As I said, that verse can't be yanked out of historical context, and then flung at anyone who for whatever reasons are not able to buy the doctrines being taught by modern day Christians. That is a dishonest use of scriptures.

You are simply a false teacher... and I'm done with you.

I am not a false teacher. I am quite knowledgeable about this stuff. You judge me, and in so doing you have judged yourself. And you saying you're done with me, is heard by me as you wanting to not face the truth of what I am saying. Stuffing the ears in other words when the truth becomes inconvenient.

I do note that every objection you have raised, I have shown to be misguided on your part. And you have not once addressed those points I raised, but just avoided them and repeated yourself. This is not being honest on your part. Not being truthful. So who is it here that is being false?

 

[Windwalker]

Of course he was convinced by the Spirit. No one comes to God without the Spirit's working.

Bingo. God therefore is accessible to those who know him by another name, and part of another religion, with different religious beliefs. God doesn't deny them because of those differences. Why do you then? "Who are you to judge another man's servant".

We can also reject him, however as God's chosen people often did.

They reject him with their hearts, while their mouths and minds speak of his praises and their worthiness as the true believers who are so because they have the right doctrines, all the while judging those who do hear God's voice as unbelievers or apostates, simply on the basis of having different beliefs.

You believe no one who is not a Christian is saved, thus damning all those of other religions who do in fact show God's love to others in their lives. You see as you see, not as God sees. You judge as you judge, not as God does. "Who are you to judge another man's servant"?

 

[Wildswanderer]

You believe no one who is not a Christian is saved,

Because that's what scripture teaches. And " it doesn't matter if they call themselves " Christian ". What matters is that they have done what scripture says is necessary:

"If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved."


There's no other way as Jesus himself said:



9 I am the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.

“Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

Many will attempt to find an alternative route to God. They will try to get there through manmade rules and regulations, through false religion, or through self-effort... but there's no other door.

 

[ajay0]

Apparently you get your history from Dan brown fiction books. This is completely inaccurate.

The only point I got from Brown is that Christmas was originally a roman pagan festival. I find this highly logical and wiki also confirms that Christmas corresponds to the traditional date of the winter solstice on the Roman calendar.

Christmas - Wikipedia

The scripture they confirmed was the same scripture that the church had been using all along

Yes, the scriptures the romans compiled and editted as per their interests is the same scripture that the church has been using all along.

Imo.