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Morals were stolen by religions, not created by them

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by icehorse, Jul 12, 2015.

  1. psychoslice

    psychoslice Veteran Member
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    Christianity only has the morals they have today, only because they had to drop all that which wasn't moral, such as owning slaves.
     
  2. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    It is the responsibility of the OP either to revise the post or name the first philosopher, who was not a religious figure, who wrote something on morals that spread far and wide. Before such a person; was every human an immoral person?
    OP is simply wrong.
    Regards
     
  3. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    I agree with you. OP is wrong.
    Regards
     
  4. Smart_Guy

    Smart_Guy ...
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    I don't think founding morals is what's important here, but it is promoting them and having them as part of organized teachings and practices. Religion is something that makes people devoted and devotion to morals makes them taken, applied and considered seriously.
     
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  5. Quintessence

    Quintessence Tale Weaver
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    I doubt that the classical monotheists view their god as a "modern god." According to their teachings, their god is the first principle, the creator of everything. It existed long before it was revealed to humans, and if we are to respect their theological point of view, I'm not sure it is fair to make this statement. The morals as revealed by their one-god existed from the beginning, just as their god does.

    But honestly, I'm only speculating on the theology here. I'm not a classical monotheist, but I know I shouldn't approach that god-concept from my own perspective. I mean, from my own point of view, I actually agree with you as I consider the one-god to be a newer one, but I really doubt that his how the actual advocates of the position would see things within their own theology.
     
  6. morphesium

    morphesium Active Member

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    Religion is the dirtiest politics ever.
     
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  7. icehorse

    icehorse Well-Known Member
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    mestemia -

    At what point does a behavior become common knowledge? In my experience on PR and listening to countless debates between the religious and atheists, a question brought up over and over again by the religious takes the form: "if you atheists don't have my god to guide you, how do you know right from wrong?'.

    Are you saying you aren't familiar with this line of debate?
     
  8. icehorse

    icehorse Well-Known Member
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    I'm not sure I see how you're connecting the dots here?...

    How is it that you get from religion to taking morals seriously? Is it your opinion of humanity that we are inherently immoral?
     
  9. icehorse

    icehorse Well-Known Member
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    Hi paarsurrey,

    In your opinion, how did mankind come to know of morality in the first place? Was it because of scripture? Was it something your god gave us innately?
     
  10. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    Thanks for providing the information.
    So the first philosopher as per the above information is Hesiod who lived in 7th century. BC.
    If we go byf the OP, the first philosopher who gave morality to the world happened to exist in the 7th century BC.
    So before Hesiod nobody knew anything about morality. Is that a correct premise?
    I don't think so.
    Regards
     
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  11. Musty

    Musty Active Member

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    Generally speaking I find the moralising behaviour of religions to be largely unhelpful since it tends to focus on things that have little or no relevance to achieving peace of mind or treating others with compassion. More often than not they are a arbitrary set of rules that people are expected to follow in order to be deemed by their religion as living correctly with some kind of promised reward in the afterlife.

    Personally I prefer the five precepts in Buddhist (Don't kill/harm, steal, lie, cause harm through sexual misconduct or use intoxicants) since they are guidelines for your own peace of mind. As far as I'm aware there is no claim within the Buddhist teachings that these teaching originated from Buddhism, only that they are a good idea to follow if you wish to have peace of mind. The view that religion has a monopoly on morals tends to be fairly dominant amongst the followers of the Abraham religions though I can't really comment on other because I don't have much experience with them.
     
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  12. Disciple of Jesus

    Disciple of Jesus Veteran Member

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    You can't ''steal'' morals.
     
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  13. jonathan180iq

    jonathan180iq Well-Known Member

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    You're exactly right, and that's the whole point.
    Someone influenced Hesiod and that someone was likely influenced by someone before him and so on...

    Are our moral understandings today the same as they were 10,000 years ago? What about 1,000 years ago? 500 years?
    Are our moral understandings today the same as they were 50 years ago?

    The point is that thought, and our very understanding of the world around us, everything down to our moral codes are explained by a combination of personal experience and something called "standing on the shoulders of giants." You would know nothing of philosophic debate were it not for the pioneers in the field before you. You would know nothing of your religion, even, were it not for the scribes who believed what they believed and wrote what they thought was important down on paper. Our morals, like our knowledge in other areas of lives, comes to us as adaptations of adaptations of adaptations.

    There was no first philosopher like there was no first man... Unless of course you consider the leaders of a baboon troop who enforce social order philosophers... They obviously have rules which they have made and they punish those members of the group who don't abide by those rules. But would you call them philosophers? Why or why not? They do the same things that you or I do in a social setting. Who gave the baboons their social and moral code?
     
  14. Smart_Guy

    Smart_Guy ...
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    What makes religious people do things a religion teaches just because that religion says so, is devotion to what that religion teaches. Devotion is serious.

    If a religion makes one do supposedly bad things without questioning just because that religion tells them to do it, which is something some non-religious people use to criticize religious people, mind you, why wouldn't the same standard be considered for supposedly good things the religious people have in their religion; e.g. good morals found in that religion? If not, it would be a double standard.

    And, saying that religion gives morals and makes one take it seriously, does not mean that humanity is inherently immoral. How did you come to that conclusion?
     
    #75 Smart_Guy, Jul 13, 2015
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2015
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  15. icehorse

    icehorse Well-Known Member
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    I'll ask you the same question: Have you not heard - hundreds of times when a religious person is debating an atheist: "If you don't believe in my god, how can you know right from wrong?"
     
  16. Smart_Guy

    Smart_Guy ...
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    I believe stealing ideas would be if claimed to be owned by those who do not own it. The act of promoting something is never a bad thing by default. I don't see religions do that with morals.

    All in all, just being human means having the sense of being moral. It is not that religion exclusively stands for morals.
     
  17. Mestemia

    Mestemia Advocatus Diaboli
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    How does this tie in to your claims of theft and groundlessness?
     
  18. Jumi

    Jumi Well-Known Member

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    Yes I've got this quite a few times, even here on RF.
     
  19. jonathan180iq

    jonathan180iq Well-Known Member

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    I think that's a fair point and we have to give credit where credit is due.
    But I think the larger issue here that Icehorse is trying to get to is where Morality comes from. His question, essentially, is "Where/When/How did morals arise?"
     
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