Morality

[firedragon]

Why? Sounds to me that such a person would simply be stating their opinion (even if they claim it is a fact), and thus it is subjective, not objective.

Not really. They claiming the accused are of objective morality. They just dont realise that's a contradiction.

 

[firedragon]

I don't understand how that could be the case.

For morality to be objective, it would have exist independently of any person, such that any onlooker would see it and understand that this was "correct" morality.

And I know of no such morality, or even how it could exist in theory.

If A claims that X is evil by nature, that tells you that A probably thinks X is evil by nature. It doesn't of itself tell you that X is in fact evil by nature.

"Good" and "evil" are subjective judgments, based on our evolved moral tendencies and our learned moral views.

So when someone calls out a whole religion for bad morals, you think they are making a case for subjective morality? Nope. Thats objective morality. Maybe you didnt understand the point.

 

[Spirit of Light]

What Is Objective Morality?

Objective morality, in the simplest terms, is the belief that morality is universal, meaning that it isn't up for interpretation. Some people may think of objective morality as commandments from God, while other people may think the universe has some objective rules we may follow. There are certainly some arguments for objective morality to be had. Religious people will define objective morality according to the commandments of their god(s). Other people may look at some universal laws, such as murder, as inherently bad.

Objective morality says that morality exists in nature—it's how we were programmed.

What Is Subjective Morality?

The opposite of objective morality is subjective morality. Subjective morality says that our morals are all human-made, and can vary from person to person. While there are strong morals shared by most of humanity, such as killing, many morals are subjective as to whether or not they are correct.
What Is Objective Morality & What Can It Teach Us? | BetterHelp

 

[firedragon]

I think morality is seen in different levels depending who you speak with, if they are religious or not.
Morality of Allah may be totally different than what humans can hope you gain.

But i do not think there is only one set of morality.
I could be wrong

If you are a believe of God, Allah, THE GOD, then it is objective morality.

When people do different things, that is not subjective morality. They are just being arbitrary. They may justify it, but that is not the morality in Islam. In Islam, morality is objective. That is specifically to you I spoke of and not relevant to others like Christians or Atheists.

For example. One cannot kill an innocent person and killing someone for anything other than murder as punishment is as if you have killed the whole of humanity. This is set in stone, which means this is a moral fact. Thats objective morality.

Hope you understand.

 

[Spirit of Light]

If you are a believe of God, Allah, THE GOD, then it is objective morality.

When people do different things, that is not subjective morality. They are just being arbitrary. They may justify it, but that is not the morality in Islam. In Islam, morality is objective. That is specifically to you I spoke of and not relevant to others like Christians or Atheists.

For example. One cannot kill an innocent person and killing someone for anything other than murder as punishment is as if you have killed the whole of humanity. This is set in stone, which means this is a moral fact. Thats objective morality.

Hope you understand.

I do understand and yes as a believer in Allah He is the one telling what good morality is ( to me) but as a human being i do know i fail in something every day.
So Even knowing what good morality is, there is still the human aspect of not being able to be as good as one should be.

 

[firedragon]

I do understand and yes as a believer in Allah He is the one telling what good morality is ( to me) but as a human being i do know i fail in something every day.
So Even knowing what good morality is, there is still the human aspect of not being able to be as good as one should be.

Absolutely.

 

[blü 2]

So when someone calls out a whole religion for bad morals, you think they are making a case for subjective morality? Nope. Thats objective morality. Maybe you didnt understand the point.

The statement "X is bad" is always shorthand for "In my / our / someone's opinion X is bad" and always subjective, since there's no objective morality.

That's true whether X is a whole religion, a glass of Coke, the Boeing Corporation, or your cat.

 

[Link]

God is morality with Euthyphro dilemma is actually not a 3rd option, but a type of one of the two answers. And it's that God commands what is good by what he sees he is good except we say God himself is that goodness. Command theory is wrong according to reason and all Philosophers accept that.

 

[Link]

I say the part we need God is in the following:

We need light from God to see light (morality is mystical)

A better argument is:

Morality and love and value is mystical in nature.
The best explanation of mystical nature is by God being the eternal source of it.

 

[Link]

Command theory itself doesn't work and you can't prove God by it. Some people rely on moral command theory when it's bad reasoning and proven wrong in philosophy.

 

[firedragon]

The statement "X is bad" is always shorthand for "In my / our / someone's opinion X is bad" and always subjective, since there's no objective morality.

That's true whether X is a whole religion, a glass of Coke, the Boeing Corporation, or your cat.

Absolutely false. A cat is one individual. A whole religion may be a billion or two.

This is not a question if objective morality or/and God exists in reality.

 

[Marcion]

In my tantra-yoga tradition morality is tightly related to dharma and spiritual progress.
We believe that every living being is moving from crude to subtle towards spiritual liberation.
In order to do so a living being needs to be able to thrive, it needs food, shelter (proper living environment), freedom of expression etc.. Usually the natural circumstances will provide these.
The living beings evolve through clash and cohesion, through overcoming countless problems.

So what is an immoral act or thought against a living being?
It is the thought of or actually performing an act to hinder the natural progress of another living creature.

E.g. if you have enough beans, soya cheese or nuts to survive, killing a cow is an immoral act because you are ending the life of that cow withouth any need to do so.
But if you would die of starvation yourself, the killing of that same cow would be a moral act, because your own consciousness is more evolved and hence more important to save than that of the cow.
Or if you lie to a member of the communist party about the where-abouts of a refugee, that is a moral act because you are protecting someone's chances to thrive.

 

[Mock Turtle]

All the love and precious little prayers and happinesses should be with your parents and yourself, of course the family.

Well quite, and I realise how grateful I should be for being in such a family, many aren't, but I think our inherent nature seems to play a part too - it being in my mother's nature and mine no doubt too. But then I've made enough serious mistakes in my life to understand how so many others who were not so fortunate as myself might do likewise.

 

[Mock Turtle]

Objective morality says that morality exists in nature—it's how we were programmed.

Well unless you have decided that we didn't evolve, like all other species, and didn't have moralities appropriate to our particular species, I can't see how objective morality and nature can be connected. Unless one hasn't looked too closely at animal behaviour - and our past. Our so-called programming has evolved just as much as our knowledge, and often being aligned with such.

 

[Spirit of Light]

Well unless you have decided that we didn't evolve, like all other species, and didn't have moralities appropriate to our particular species, I can't see how objective morality and nature can be connected. Unless one hasn't looked too closely at animal behaviour - and our past. Our so-called programming has evolved just as much as our knowledge, and often being aligned with such.

Personally i believe God is behind it all, both creation and evolution

 

[Mock Turtle]

Personally i believe God is behind it all, both creation and evolution

A convenient answer but not one that satisfies me I'm afraid.

 

[firedragon]

Well quite, and I realise how grateful I should be for being in such a family, many aren't, but I think our inherent nature seems to play a part too - it being in my mother's nature and mine no doubt too. But then I've made enough serious mistakes in my life to understand how so many others who were not so fortunate as myself might do likewise.

I know many who dont have clue who their father or mother were. No clue whatsoever. I know one young guy who doesnt even know which country his family is from.

You are blessed MT. I dont mean to say you should count your blessing or something. But you see, what you might not see, is that your family, and most specially your parents are indeed blessed. Because you are still speaking about them, in an Internet forum. Still. People find it difficult to not to think of a pot of gold right in front of them. They are Gold. Thats why you speak of them.

If I can be that blessed, I dont know what else I could have achieved in life.

Peace.

 

[blü 2]

Absolutely false. A cat is one individual. A whole religion may be a billion or two.

This is not a question if objective morality or/and God exists in reality.

Then I confess I have no idea what you mean by 'objective morality'.

When something has objective existence, it exists out there in reality where you can see it. 'Reality' is the same thing as the world external to the self,nature,

And search nature as I will, I won't find any objective moral statements there, hence no objective moral judgments either ─ because morality is subjective and exists only as concepts in individual brains.

What meaning do you intend when you're saying 'objective' here?

 

[firedragon]

A convenient answer but not one that satisfies me I'm afraid.

MT. Muslims have for a long long time, since maybe the 9th or 10th century believed in evolution. I would like to ask you to not just say things like "convenient answer". Rather, if you have a doubt about something, why not clarify it?

 

[Spirit of Light]

A convenient answer but not one that satisfies me I'm afraid.

You will have your own answer your own study will give answers to your questions, i can only speak for how i understand it