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Featured Morality: Do you agree

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Nimos, Jan 24, 2023 at 10:46 AM.

  1. Ponder This

    Ponder This Well-Known Member

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    1. Without God there is no moral foundation.
    and
    2. People are capable of moral judgment.

    are not mutually exclusive.

    Perhaps this is a false dichotomy?
     
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  2. vulcanlogician

    vulcanlogician Active Member

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    What about a person without a preconceived idea either way about God's existence or nonexistence? Such a person could suspend judgment on whether or not a deity exists and yet still come to the conclusion that the Pythagorean theorem arises due to the structural relation between three points, and wasn't necessarily created by God.

    Heck, even a committed theist could conclude that.
     
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  3. Eli G

    Eli G Active Member

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    I don't understand your point.

    That a law is discovered says absolutely nothing about why it exists. You must reason on that later.
     
  4. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    Yes, I agree with this since I believe God sets the standards for human morality by revealing laws through the Messengers of God.
     
  5. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    If not from God, where would objective morality come from?
    If not God's laws, what makes something morally wrong?
     
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  6. TagliatelliMonster

    TagliatelliMonster Veteran Member

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    I'ld say the exact opposite.

    "god's morality" is the morality of psychopaths. It's not a morality at all. It's just obedience to a perceived authority.

    And actual morality is reasoned morality.
    And I'ld say that my moral compass is not grounded in subjectivity, but in objectivity.

    And that objectivity is, simplistically put: harm = bad, well-being = good.

    Actions and decision that cause or lead to unnecessary suffering are thus bad.
    Actions and decision that cause or lead to a decrease in suffering / increase in well-being are thus good.

    Here's the thing: to know what results in such, requires knowledge of the world and stuff. So those standards tend to shift, as we learn more, as our knowledge progresses.

    Whereas a "divine command" morality is set in stone and doesn't change.
    On "divine command" morality, keeping slaves is just fine, if the "divine ruler" says it is.
     
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  7. TagliatelliMonster

    TagliatelliMonster Veteran Member

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    Objective morality means you need an objective manner to define "good" and "bad".
    Referring to a god's opinions of those, is not that.
     
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  8. Eli G

    Eli G Active Member

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    We are aware that life exists. No scientist seems to be able to explain its origin.
    Well, when people were more religious a few years ago (like before 1914), was the world better or worse than now? :rolleyes:

    2 Tim. 3:1 But know this, that in the last days critical times hard to deal with will be here. 2 For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, self-assuming, haughty, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, disloyal, 3 having no natural affection, not open to any agreement, slanderers, without self-control, fierce, without love of goodness, 4 betrayers, headstrong, puffed up [with pride], lovers of pleasures rather than lovers of God, 5 having a form of godly devotion but proving false to its power; and from these turn away.
     
  9. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    Whether one is moral or not has nothing to do with what one believes, it is determined by how one acts.
    An atheist can be moral or immoral.
    A believer can be moral or immoral.
     
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  10. TagliatelliMonster

    TagliatelliMonster Veteran Member

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    It's at best a false dichotomy.
    As if morality can only have objective foundations if it's based on the whims of a god.

    At worst, it's just wrong... because god's opinions are objective as well.


    That, and the fact that mere obedience to authority, is not acting morally. That's just obedience.
     
  11. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    If not God's opinions, then what determines what is good and bad?
     
  12. TagliatelliMonster

    TagliatelliMonster Veteran Member

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    You can ask the same of theists.
    This is not an argument.
     
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  13. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    It offends other people.
     
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  14. sun rise

    sun rise Śvāna Dharma
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    Quoting the Bible as proof of something does not convince most. I can quote the Hindu conception of the Kali Yuga or the Hadith of Muhammad:

    The time is near in which nothing will remain of Islam but its name, and
    of the Quran but its mere appearance, and the mosques of Muslims will be
    destitute of of knowledge and worship; and the learned will be the worst
    people under the heavens; and contention and strife will issue from them,
    and it will return upon themselves.
    ...
    Ye follower of Muhammad, I swear by the Lord, if ye did but know what I
    know of the future state, verily ye would laugh little and cry much.
    ...
    Men will be liars towards the end of the world; and will relate such
    stories as neither you nor your fathers ever heard. Then avoid them, that
    they may not lead you astray and throw you into contention and strife.​
     
  15. Altfish

    Altfish Veteran Member

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    Very good but irrelevant to my teaching.
    One does NOT need religion to teach morals, The Golden Rule existed long before modern religions.
     
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  16. Eli G

    Eli G Active Member

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    I remember when I was a child. We could take a nap without bolting the door. We could also be on the street until any time, because the dangers were minimal.

    Some people don't remember those times... or never knew them. That is why they do not realize the reality of the times and the moral decline that has occurred lately.

    Has the invention of atheistic morality become something really beneficial for humanity?
     
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  17. AdamjEdgar

    AdamjEdgar Member

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    i have to wonder when seeing a question like this...
    i was raised in an essentially non Christian home. having said that, most in my family kind referred to themselves as either catholic or church of england although did not study or participate actively in religious traditions.
    So when someone brings up the atheists cannot have morality because they do not believe in God, i make the case that we do have built into us a certain level of morality because we know of God.

    An atheist can deny they believe in God, but they cannot deny they know of Him and that is the point...God stated in the New Covenant that instead of relying on individuals to teach others about His statutes and laws, he would write them on our hearts and in our minds. We all have this sense of right and wrong inside of us, however, even for those who claim otherwise, we also get it from "osmosis" as a result of modeling by other individuals we associate with as we mature.
     
  18. vulcanlogician

    vulcanlogician Active Member

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    I actually took a deep dive into that very question a few days ago. The post is here. You will want to scroll down past the "***" to get to the part where I present the arguments for what concerns your first question.

    I'm very willing to make a strong, logically sound case and treat any objections you may have.

    Your second question is complicated. The answer doesn't fit in a fortune cookie.

    But the nutshell reply is that things are wrong for reasons. And those reasons (not God's commands) are what makes those things wrong. What reasons, and how do we figure them out? No more room on the fortune cookie. I laid my position out in more detail in the thread I linked you to. I haven't the strength to repeat it all, since the discussion is still going on over there.
     
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  19. Polymath257

    Polymath257 Think & Care
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    Longer is not the same as forever.

    I cannot even imagine conditions that would make living forever anything but pure torture. Anything past a few tens of millions of years would get brutal.
     
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  20. TagliatelliMonster

    TagliatelliMonster Veteran Member

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    And what that resulted into is a whole bunch of christians who are intolerant, homophobic, misogynistic,...

    Who for the better part of their history also found slavery morally justifiable. And some still do.
     
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