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Featured Morality: Do you agree

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Nimos, Jan 24, 2023.

  1. Nimos

    Nimos Well-Known Member

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    Was watching a debate between a Muslim and an atheist. And the Muslim make the argument that people that believe in subjective morality have no foundation for making moral judgements and are therefore not valid. Whereas people with a foundation in objective morality, meaning God as the moral judge are because this gives them a foundation for their morality.

    Do you agree with this, that without God there is no moral foundation for judging right from wrong? And therefore people not believing in objective morality is not allowed or invalid when judging others?
     
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  2. Eli G

    Eli G Active Member

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    No in the radical sense. Humans got an internal sense of justice with which we were created.

    Besides that, it's not very difficult to understand that what hurts me can hurt another human being in the same way, so it would be easy to make it a convention for everyone.

    However, God's justice is higher, because he made us and knows exactly what hurts us all.
     
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  3. Soandso

    Soandso Member

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    Good point. Guess this means we should stone people to death like we used to for blasphemy. Alright everyone, line up! I'll go first
     
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  4. ChristineM

    ChristineM "Be strong" I whispered to my coffee.
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    No. I argue that human beings as well as all other social animals are moral creatures by default. Without morality civilization could not have developed from which grew religion which took morality and bastardised it to omit anyone who did not worship their particular god(s)
     
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  5. vulcanlogician

    vulcanlogician Active Member

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    It's an interesting topic. I agree with the Muslim to some extent.

    People who call themselves moral relativists often want to treat moral debates as if they are more than matters of opinion. But in order to do that, you need some kind of objective basis for morality.

    You can't have your cake and eat it too.

    But the problem with the Muslim's argument is that there is no need for God in order to have objective morality. In fact, even if God exists and created the entire universe, God's sayso cannot be what makes something morally wrong.
     
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  6. Soandso

    Soandso Member

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    What is objective morality and how do we prove it objectively exists?
     
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  7. Nimos

    Nimos Well-Known Member

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    Without a moral judge (such as a God) where would objective morality come from? Which is naturally implied in his argument.

    Said in another way, who decides that killing another person is objectively morally wrong?
     
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  8. Nimos

    Nimos Well-Known Member

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    So if I understand you correct, your argument is that morality is equally valid with and without God? Meaning we wouldn't be able to tell the difference either way.
     
  9. Nimos

    Nimos Well-Known Member

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    I think everyone would agree with that. But do you think there is any moral justification for you to tell someone else that they are morally wrong?
     
  10. ChristineM

    ChristineM "Be strong" I whispered to my coffee.
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    Actually there are many who disagree with that. Certainly i have been told on many occasions that because i am atheist i have no morality

    Depends on the action. I certainly think religion claiming morality for itself is morally wrong.
     
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  11. Heyo

    Heyo Veteran Member

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    There is no objective morality. If you believe in a god-given morality, that is just your subjective opinion.
     
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  12. Twilight Hue

    Twilight Hue Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.

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    No. God is just an avatar for morality which has been a human concept all along.
     
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  13. vulcanlogician

    vulcanlogician Active Member

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    That's a HUGE question. A couple of us are sorting through it in the philosophy subforum, here.

    Suffice it to say, it's perfectly fine to reject the idea of objective morality. Plenty of good arguments to be made against it.

    Some people like carrot cake. Other people don't. It's a subjective matter whether carrot cake is good or not. Maybe morality works like that.

    But if someone thinks that all morality boils down to subjectivity, they should be careful about what they say. Somebody beating the crap out of his wife because she didn't have dinner on time cannot be wrong in any kind of objective sense to them. So moral relativists should be careful to point out in such cases that there is nothing wrong with such an act. They should say something like "such an act does not suit my preferences."

    But often times, so-called moral relativists express moral outrage at things like that. By their own worldview, they shouldn't do that.
     
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  14. ImmortalFlame

    ImmortalFlame Woke gremlin

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    A bit of both, kind of.

    I'm a moral anti-realist, so while I believe that moral axioms are subjective, once you have accepted the axiom you can still make objectively true moral assessments. I mean, technically even the axiom "God's moral standard is correct" is subjective in a way, so it could perhaps be argued that evoking a God doesn't necessarily alleviate the issue of subjectivity.
     
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  15. Polymath257

    Polymath257 Think & Care
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    I see two problems with the Muslim argument (and it is also made by many of other theist persuasions).

    The first is that we could legitimately say that a creator God is evil if that God enjoys torturing conscious living things. And that means that morality is NOT based on the mere whims of a creator. Which means that God is NOT the 'objective basis of morality'. All that bringing God into it does it make the *subjective* views of that creator as the basis of morality. That is no more an objective morality than saying morality is based on the views of Kim Jong Un.

    But, I also think there *is* a basis for morality that does not depend on the existence of a deity. More specifically, the promotion of human well being seems to determine what is and what is not moral. We could potentially extend this to the well being of conscious entities.

    The nice thing about this is that it is based on the fact that humans are a social species and that our behavior affects others in ways that can either be good or bad.

    Now, determining what promotes human well being might be tricky, but so is determining the views of an inscrutable deity.
     
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  16. Eli G

    Eli G Active Member

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    It is, of course and tthat is the reason why God requires his servants to obey the secular authorities, because they reflect his justice to a certain extent. Humans are "lineage" of God in the sense of our conscience and way of reasoning the world. But God is always the superior authority, because since He was the one who created us, he knows better than we ourselves what should be the way to treat each other, and what is good for us or not of all the things that could occur to us.

    Rom. 13:1 Let every person be in subjection to the superior authorities, for there is no authority except by God; the existing authorities stand placed in their relative positions by God. 2 Therefore, whoever opposes the authority has taken a stand against the arrangement of God; those who have taken a stand against it will bring judgment against themselves. 3 For those rulers are an object of fear, not to the good deed, but to the bad. Do you want to be free of fear of the authority? Keep doing good, and you will have praise from it; 4 for it is God’s minister to you for your good. But if you are doing what is bad, be in fear, for it is not without purpose that it bears the sword. It is God’s minister, an avenger to express wrath against the one practicing what is bad.

    If human conventions are against the law of God, it is obvious that the superior is served. A child would like to eat candy all the time. The father knows what would happen if he let him.
     
  17. Soandso

    Soandso Member

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    This is where laws of the land come in. Like it or not, some things are acceptable in some cultures vs. others. It's the way things have always been, and it seems to be the best way for now considering how progress continually improves the human condition, IMO

    It's not perfect, but it gets better as the world shrinks
     
  18. Altfish

    Altfish Veteran Member

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    Totally disagree.
    Morality comes from the person and their empathy, listen to Hemant Mahta
    Can you be moral without God? - YouTube
     
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  19. vulcanlogician

    vulcanlogician Active Member

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    Just because other people and cultures disagree on something, that means there is no objective truth on the matter?

    So, for instance, flat earthers represent something of a subculture. And they disagree with scientists over the shape of the Earth. So that means there is no real "objectively true" shape of the Earth out there? I mean... how can there be? People disagree over it.

    And how can you make a statement like "the human condition is improving?" Better and worse in the ethical dimension suggests an objective ethics.

    Wife-beating is acceptable in some parts of the world. I doubt it seems like an improvement to those people who see their way of life vanishing. A relativist would say something like, the world is becoming more acceptable according to the cultural opinions of Westerners (or something like that).
     
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  20. Nimos

    Nimos Well-Known Member

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    But God would give a foundation for it, right? Assuming that God is real.
     
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