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Morality and Sexual Assault

dgirl1986

Big Queer Chesticles!
There are claims that morality comes from god and the bible but I have never read a verse of the bible or come across anything that speaks against sexual assault or rape other than the woman must marry the main that violated her.

So this raises the question, if instruction against rape didnt come from the bible where did it come from and is this a flaw in christians debate on morality? Further to the point, does this explain why there is so much victim shaming when rape and assult does occur?
 

MysticSang'ha

Big Squishy Hugger
Premium Member
There are claims that morality comes from god and the bible but I have never read a verse of the bible or come across anything that speaks against sexual assault or rape other than the woman must marry the main that violated her.

So this raises the question, if instruction against rape didnt come from the bible where did it come from and is this a flaw in christians debate on morality? Further to the point, does this explain why there is so much victim shaming when rape and assult does occur?

I wish you luck in this. I've been asking this for years without a reasonable answer.

The Ten Commandments believe coveting your neighbors wife is a sin. But if you rape her, that isn't as bad as coveting her.

What the problem with this is that women's sexual autonomy and agency is still considered very very new in our culture. A woman's sexuality was considered for a very large part of this history to be a man's property. Girls' sexuality was the property of her father, and after marriage, he gives her sexuality to her new husband. Rape, for lack of a better description, was more of an affront to the man in her life that spoiled his property instead of viewing it as a violent crime against the woman.

It wasn't until after the women's rights movements, and for us specifically Second Wave Feminism here in the U.S., opened up domestic violence shelters for battered wives and their protection that marital rape ever became even considered as realistic. Marital rape then in the U.S. became a criminal act in the 1970's, but before that, husbands legally owned their wives' sexuality. Hence, "wifely duties".

This mindset remains culturally in the older generations hanging on to the customs they are used to. Women do not own their sexuality, or maybe they do "within reason" in the minds of many folks.

But yes, when it comes to the Biblical texts or other religious doctrine, sexual assault isn't taught as a sin. When I was in Bible study groups for women, it was even emphasized how easily men can be provoked to rape us, so we were to pray and study harder to prevent such a thing happening to us.
 

Nietzsche

The Last Prussian
Premium Member
I wish you luck in this. I've been asking this for years without a reasonable answer.

The Ten Commandments believe coveting your neighbors wife is a sin. But if you rape her, that isn't as bad as coveting her.

What the problem with this is that women's sexual autonomy and agency is still considered very very new in our culture. A woman's sexuality was considered for a very large part of this history to be a man's property. Girls' sexuality was the property of her father, and after marriage, he gives her sexuality to her new husband. Rape, for lack of a better description, was more of an affront to the man in her life that spoiled his property instead of viewing it as a violent crime against the woman.

It wasn't until after the women's rights movements, and for us specifically Second Wave Feminism here in the U.S., opened up domestic violence shelters for battered wives and their protection that marital rape ever became even considered as realistic. Marital rape then in the U.S. became a criminal act in the 1970's, but before that, husbands legally owned their wives' sexuality. Hence, "wifely duties".

This mindset remains culturally in the older generations hanging on to the customs they are used to. Women do not own their sexuality, or maybe they do "within reason" in the minds of many folks.

But yes, when it comes to the Biblical texts or other religious doctrine, sexual assault isn't taught as a sin. When I was in Bible study groups for women, it was even emphasized how easily men can be provoked to rape us, so we were to pray and study harder to prevent such a thing happening to us.

Impressive! That actually kinda makes me a little sick.
 

Skwim

Veteran Member

Deuteronomy 22:25-28 ESV
“But if in the open country a man meets a young woman who is betrothed, and the man seizes her and lies with her, then only the man who lay with her shall die. But you shall do nothing to the young woman; she has committed no offense punishable by death. For this case is like that of a man attacking and murdering his neighbor, because he met her in the open country, and though the betrothed young woman cried for help there was no one to rescue her.

Deuteronomy 22:28-29 ESV
“If a man meets a virgin who is not betrothed, and seizes her and lies with her, and they are found, then the man who lay with her shall give to the father of the young woman fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife, because he has violated her. He may not divorce her all his days.
The seizing part is the only thing I've seen that comes close to rape.
 

Nietzsche

The Last Prussian
Premium Member
Deuteronomy 22:25-28 ESV
“But if in the open country a man meets a young woman who is betrothed, and the man seizes her and lies with her, then only the man who lay with her shall die. But you shall do nothing to the young woman; she has committed no offense punishable by death. For this case is like that of a man attacking and murdering his neighbor, because he met her in the open country, and though the betrothed young woman cried for help there was no one to rescue her.

Deuteronomy 22:28-29 ESV
“If a man meets a virgin who is not betrothed, and seizes her and lies with her, and they are found, then the man who lay with her shall give to the father of the young woman fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife, because he has violated her. He may not divorce her all his days.
The seizing part is the only thing I've seen that comes close to rape.
That was a surprisingly progressive view. For the time & culture. It's utterly useless now, but it meant something back then. Though obviously, you can argue all day on how much good it did or didn't do.
 

Levite

Higher and Higher
There are claims that morality comes from god and the bible but I have never read a verse of the bible or come across anything that speaks against sexual assault or rape other than the woman must marry the main that violated her.

So this raises the question, if instruction against rape didnt come from the bible where did it come from and is this a flaw in christians debate on morality? Further to the point, does this explain why there is so much victim shaming when rape and assult does occur?

First of all, it's not that the woman must marry the man who raped her, it's that if she wishes to marry him, he must marry her and not divorce her against her will; but if she doesn't wish to marry him, she does not have to, but he still must pay a bride price to her or to her father if she is still living under her father's roof.

You need the Oral Torah in addition to the Written Torah. The halachah (Jewish Law, part of the Oral Torah) clarifies that all rape is absolutely prohibited, under all circumstances. A woman must give consent. A rapist, if convicted under Jewish law, is subject to a number of consequences, most notably payment for any medical care the woman required, payment for damages, payment for pain and suffering, etc.

Rape is never okay. I cannot imagine a sane and rational theology that would say it was.
 

averageJOE

zombie
I wish you luck in this. I've been asking this for years without a reasonable answer.

The Ten Commandments believe coveting your neighbors wife is a sin. But if you rape her, that isn't as bad as coveting her.

What the problem with this is that women's sexual autonomy and agency is still considered very very new in our culture. A woman's sexuality was considered for a very large part of this history to be a man's property. Girls' sexuality was the property of her father, and after marriage, he gives her sexuality to her new husband. Rape, for lack of a better description, was more of an affront to the man in her life that spoiled his property instead of viewing it as a violent crime against the woman.

It wasn't until after the women's rights movements, and for us specifically Second Wave Feminism here in the U.S., opened up domestic violence shelters for battered wives and their protection that marital rape ever became even considered as realistic. Marital rape then in the U.S. became a criminal act in the 1970's, but before that, husbands legally owned their wives' sexuality. Hence, "wifely duties".

This mindset remains culturally in the older generations hanging on to the customs they are used to. Women do not own their sexuality, or maybe they do "within reason" in the minds of many folks.

But yes, when it comes to the Biblical texts or other religious doctrine, sexual assault isn't taught as a sin. When I was in Bible study groups for women, it was even emphasized how easily men can be provoked to rape us, so we were to pray and study harder to prevent such a thing happening to us.
Wow. I've hear of "prey the gay away", but that's the first I've heard of "pray the rape away".
 

dgirl1986

Big Queer Chesticles!
Deuteronomy 22:25-28 ESV
“But if in the open country a man meets a young woman who is betrothed, and the man seizes her and lies with her, then only the man who lay with her shall die. But you shall do nothing to the young woman; she has committed no offense punishable by death. For this case is like that of a man attacking and murdering his neighbor, because he met her in the open country, and though the betrothed young woman cried for help there was no one to rescue her.

Deuteronomy 22:28-29 ESV
“If a man meets a virgin who is not betrothed, and seizes her and lies with her, and they are found, then the man who lay with her shall give to the father of the young woman fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife, because he has violated her. He may not divorce her all his days.
The seizing part is the only thing I've seen that comes close to rape.

Have you read the same verses in different translations?
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
You probably should. They read differently.
Don't all verses read differently in different versions? I just accept this as a given, and, as any Christian does, use the version that best suits my purpose.
 
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MysticSang'ha

Big Squishy Hugger
Premium Member
First of all, it's not that the woman must marry the man who raped her, it's that if she wishes to marry him, he must marry her and not divorce her against her will; but if she doesn't wish to marry him, she does not have to, but he still must pay a bride price to her or to her father if she is still living under her father's roof.

You need the Oral Torah in addition to the Written Torah. The halachah (Jewish Law, part of the Oral Torah) clarifies that all rape is absolutely prohibited, under all circumstances. A woman must give consent. A rapist, if convicted under Jewish law, is subject to a number of consequences, most notably payment for any medical care the woman required, payment for damages, payment for pain and suffering, etc.

Rape is never okay. I cannot imagine a sane and rational theology that would say it was.

Was the Oral Torah in agreement about sexual consent within marriage, too?
 

MysticSang'ha

Big Squishy Hugger
Premium Member
Wow. I've hear of "prey the gay away", but that's the first I've heard of "pray the rape away".

Oh yeah. Even back then when I was quite the adherent and majorly committed to being a good Christian woman, those Bible study group moments made my stomach churn.
 

Levite

Higher and Higher
Was the Oral Torah in agreement about sexual consent within marriage, too?

Classically, it's a little hard to know, but I would assume so, given that the Rabbis teach that a man is obligated to provide his wife with sexual satisfaction, and they are basically permitted to do anything with each other that will please her. My hope is that this implies that just as it is permitted to do anything with one another that will please her, it is also forbidden to do anything that will displease her. But it is never made explicit in classical texts.

Modern rabbis, however, have made it clear that even in marriage, consent is mandatory.
 

MysticSang'ha

Big Squishy Hugger
Premium Member
Classically, it's a little hard to know, but I would assume so, given that the Rabbis teach that a man is obligated to provide his wife with sexual satisfaction, and they are basically permitted to do anything with each other that will please her. My hope is that this implies that just as it is permitted to do anything with one another that will please her, it is also forbidden to do anything that will displease her. But it is never made explicit in classical texts.

Modern rabbis, however, have made it clear that even in marriage, consent is mandatory.

Okay thank you for clarifying. :)

Is there a reason why many written texts do not spell out the importance of consent or the crime of sexual assault?

It's unusual in Christian tradition from my experience to emphasize the importance of consent based on religious teachings and/or doctrinal support. So, because of my own experience, I am wanting to open the question to all religious adherents, but personally I'd also like to know what you see within Judaism and it's teachings.
 

Etritonakin

Well-Known Member
If man and woman kept "the law", such would not be a consideration.
Two would consent and become "one flesh".

Much of what is called "the law" -or "the Mosaic law" -deals with what was to happen after people broke the law -and are actually judgments "under" the law.
They concern what is to be done after people have been immoral.

In fact, the Mosaic law and judgments were given to a people God knew could not perfectly keep them -in preparation for their offspring -who could begin to do so -which was in turn for the resurrection of the dead -who could then do so. Previous generations laid the groundwork -later generations built upon it -and all would eventually benefit from it -because death is temporary.

Translations are often based on preconceived notions -and our languages are imperfect.... subject to misunderstanding...

(For example..... Act 12:4 And when he had apprehended him, he put him in prison, and delivered him to four quaternions of soldiers to keep him; intending after Easter to bring him forth to the people.
"Easter" in the above is a very horrible mistranslation of "Passover". Passover is a holy day given by God -Easter is another spelling of "Astarte" -or "Ishtar" -which is the chief goddess of the Babylonian mystery religion and has nothing to do with the bible unless you consider the following verse..... which speaks of those who corrupted scripture......
Rev 17:5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.)


Zep 3:9 For then will I turn to the people a pure language, that they may all call upon the name of the LORD, to serve him with one consent.

If you are indignant about any thing that is truly justified, God is not in disagreement -regardless of what men say.

The problem for most lies with God allowing what he is against.

The purpose for that is that all could be against it.

It is of little consolation now that anything that has been can be erased -leaving only what should be and how we should be -but it will be of complete consolation then.

It is not wrong to hate the state of things -but the state of things will no longer be.

More correctly.... you will make the state of things perfect because you know what is imperfect -and, more importantly, what is perfect -and all that has been imperfect while you learned will be healed.

No sorrow for loss or rage against injustice will be left unsatisfied.

-------------------------

My argument against time travel is actually the source of my greatest hope..... that the future is a rearrangement of the past -the past does not wait to be visited ....and the only way to visit the past is to reverse -or recreate -the order of things....

...and that is 100% possible -and 100% inevitable.

Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Rev 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new.
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
Deuteronomy 22:25-28 ESV
“But if in the open country a man meets a young woman who is betrothed, and the man seizes her and lies with her, then only the man who lay with her shall die. But you shall do nothing to the young woman; she has committed no offense punishable by death. For this case is like that of a man attacking and murdering his neighbor, because he met her in the open country, and though the betrothed young woman cried for help there was no one to rescue her.

Deuteronomy 22:28-29 ESV
“If a man meets a virgin who is not betrothed, and seizes her and lies with her, and they are found, then the man who lay with her shall give to the father of the young woman fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife, because he has violated her. He may not divorce her all his days.
The seizing part is the only thing I've seen that comes close to rape.

Er?
You didn't see the 'rape' part in all that?
“But if in the open country a man meets a young woman who is betrothed, and the man seizes her and lies with her, then only the man who lay with her shall die.
............ the above is rape, surely?
 

Levite

Higher and Higher
Okay thank you for clarifying.

Is there a reason why many written texts do not spell out the importance of consent or the crime of sexual assault?

It's unusual in Christian tradition from my experience to emphasize the importance of consent based on religious teachings and/or doctrinal support. So, because of my own experience, I am wanting to open the question to all religious adherents, but personally I'd also like to know what you see within Judaism and it's teachings.

Well, in general, I think it's helpful to remember that the Written Torah was never intended to stand alone. The Oral Torah is part of the whole package.

Think of it this way. If you open a volume of a Federal or State legal code (and I think this is also true for British laws and other Commonwealth systems descended from British law), you find with each law a heading offering a basic gist of the content of the law, and then sections (each with its own heading), and each section is then divided into subsections. Usually, if one wants to understand a certain law, one looks it up, studies all the sections and subsections, and then consults in separate volumes material to shed light on the law, such as the analysis of legislative and judicial experts, and legal precedents from relevant court cases. Only in this fashion can one understand what how the law is to be understood, how it is supposed to be applied, and how it functions within society and the courtroom.

When we look only at the Written Torah, it's like looking at the law heading and some of the section headings, but not seeing the enumerated subsections, or court precedents, or analyses. All those latter things are found in the Oral Torah. Because the two are parts of the same whole, it isn't odd that significant details aren't found in the Written Torah-- they just go someplace else. I hope that makes some sort of sense.

In any case, as to doctrinal support, we reason out the primary prohibition against rape from the fact that the Written Torah explicitly prohibits rape. The punishments for rape, classically, are essentially just the punishments for physical assault, plus extra penalties. The need for consent is spelled out several places in the Talmud and early post-Talmudic halachic (Jewish legal) literature, that's fairly basic. One of the places in Written Torah they cite as a prooftext is in Genesis, in the story of Abraham's servant seeking a wife for Abraham's son Isaac, where the servant has gone back to Abraham's family still dwelling in Aram, and asked for the hand of Rebecca to be Isaac's wife. They ask her directly, "Will you go with this man?" And she answers, "I will go." From this, the Rabbis conclude that a woman must give verbal consent to marriage. Verbal consent for sex is a modern refinement of this idea, since of course the Rabbis were presuming that one was not having sex outside of marriage (or concubinage, which was licit in those days).

Of course, we have not actually had halachic courts with criminal jurisdiction in hundreds of years, so these days, we don't interpret criminal law for practical application. In most non-ritual matters-- criminal matters included-- we cede jurisdiction to the civil courts. But a number of rabbis have published halachic responsa today highlighting the egregious nature of rape and singling it out especially for its psychologically traumatic nature. This is based in part on the classical Hebrew word for rape, which is related closely to the word for torment.
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
Deuteronomy 22:28-29 ESV
“If a man meets a virgin who is not betrothed, and seizes her and lies with her, and they are found, then the man who lay with her shall give to the father of the young woman fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife, because he has violated her. He may not divorce her all his days.


Deuteronomy 22:28-29 ESV
“If a man meets a virgin who is not betrothed, andseizes her and lies with her, and they are found, then the man who lay with her shall give to the father of the young woman fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife, because he has violated her. He may not divorce her all his days.

I'm just wondering what a shekel of silver was actually worth all those thousands of years ago. Judas got 30 pieces of silver for turning in Jesus...... and could buy a field with it.
50 shekels was probably more than any man could ever save........ ergo, this was possibly a form of enslavement.... ?
 
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