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Featured Moral relativism and moral subjectivists

Discussion in 'Ethics and Morals' started by osgart, Nov 1, 2018.

  1. osgart

    osgart Nothing my eye, Something for sure

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    Do people not see any universality or objective fact in morality?

    If there are no universals how do we draw common with all human beings?

    Moral relativism in my sense of it is that all morality is dependent on individual preferences, and all of morality is circumstantial; relative to the situation. Perhaps all things are permissible given the situation and preference and benefit in my view of it.

    Moral subjectivity is that morality is all based on personal feelings and there are no objective standards that evidence themselves as being truth.

    To me moral relativism, and moral subjectivity are pitfalls whereas certain evils can seem necessary to the individual.

    Moral objectivity and universality of morals is where all humans can hold common grounds and a fair sense of justice.
     
    #1 osgart, Nov 1, 2018
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2018
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  2. David T

    David T Well-Known Member
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    Your statement "Moral objectivity and universality of morals to me"

    contradicts your statement,

    "Moral subjectivity is that morality is all based on personal feelings".

    Reductionism...
     
  3. osgart

    osgart Nothing my eye, Something for sure

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    Objective standards of morality about personal feelings exist.

    I may have acceptable or rejectable personal feelings about morality, but there are standards of objective moral truth regardless of anyone's personal feelings.
     
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  4. Sunstone

    Sunstone De Diablo Del Fora
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    The notion that morals should be indifferent to circumstances strikes as both dangerous and ridiculous.

    Should you always give charity? What about to a meth head? Or to someone trying to save up money to buy a gun to shoot his ex-wife?

    Should you never murder? What about a dictator hellbent on murdering his political opponents?

    Should you never steal? What about in order to save the lives of your starving kids?
     
  5. osgart

    osgart Nothing my eye, Something for sure

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    Im not saying that objective morality is indifferent to circumstances. Im saying that there are truthes about personal feelings that are universal.

    Killing is different than murder and that killing is grounded in innocent motives to protect life.

    Allowing people to starve is no better than murder.

    You should only give as people deserve according to necessity.

    These things are true no matter what someones personal feelings are to the contrary.
     
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  6. David T

    David T Well-Known Member
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    "but there are standards of objective moral truth" noah wrote some down in stone but we discovered that was flawed.

    Reductionism in religion and science is a failed philosophy, historically, that cant be killed regardless. it constantly is changing and is reletive to the observer in any particular generation and is always consistent across all generations. Its nonsense of course.
     
  7. sun rise

    sun rise "Let there be peace and love among all"
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    Here's an example. I assume you will accept that stealing is wrong. But what about the destitute person who steals milk to feed a baby dying of hunger because the mother is in the hospital unconscious and there's no one else to take care of the infant. Is that equally wrong with stealing a car?

    Is killing wrong? What about the man who kills someone attempting rape and murder?
     
  8. osgart

    osgart Nothing my eye, Something for sure

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    Your definition of reductionism sounds like moral relativism. And it sounds like complete nonsense.

    The Bible is a failure at moral objectivity.
     
  9. osgart

    osgart Nothing my eye, Something for sure

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    That really isnt stealing, thats taking what is rightfully deserved.

    Killing is justified. Murder is not.
     
  10. David T

    David T Well-Known Member
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    Well when ya figure out what objective is and what actually is objective get back to me. Because you are repeating what historically has been religious nonsense.
     
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  11. Sunstone

    Sunstone De Diablo Del Fora
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    What do the sciences say about "objective morality"?

    The first part of this video provides an answer:


     
  12. osgart

    osgart Nothing my eye, Something for sure

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    Independent of individual subjectivity is not indifferent to individual subjectivity. Truthes of morality stand true on their own as a service to individual subjectivity that is aligned with such truthes. Moral truth is not dependent on subjectivity. We can act truthfully vs acting in falsehood.
     
  13. Sammaiel

    Sammaiel Member

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    All morality is subjective, in my opinion. Morality codes are agreed upon by groups of people, but in the end all values are expressions of emotions, attitudes, reactions, feelings, thoughts, wishes, and desires, and have no independent objective or external reality or reference in the real world.

    Yet, ethics are needed to avoid reverting into an hobbesian wilderness.
     
  14. Sunstone

    Sunstone De Diablo Del Fora
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    Morality might very well be largely an expression of our DNA.
     
  15. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
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    Of course there are universal morals and principles that apply to any community or relationship to build trust, security and confidence for the future. Each needs adjustment according to the exigencies of the time.
     
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  16. osgart

    osgart Nothing my eye, Something for sure

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    I totally agree with that.

    How do you see objective morality though? Am i missing something about objective morality, or it misunderstandings?
     
  17. ADigitalArtist

    ADigitalArtist Well-Known Member
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    Moral relativity is not the same as saying moral judgement can only be arrived at through arbitration. All it's saying is that each person's ability to make moral decisions is effected by their subjective experiences. Seeing a variety of moral judgement is expected in a variety of societal, religious, cultural, etc. frameworks. Whereas morality that exists purely independent of personal experience would be uniform, and that's not what we see.
    Moral relativity is also not saying there are no objective facts which can influence moral judgement. Only that your interpretation of those facts will be subject to your ability and circumstance.
    There's a really great video series on YouTube that covers this (though from a more theological perspective). I'll just link one of the 3:
     
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  18. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
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    The physical universe operates through unseen laws such as the attraction of mass and entropy. The moral dimension is based on similar unseen laws that the Hindus or Buddhists might refer to as the eternal Dharma. We all have varying capacity to access this realm, but the greatest people with this knowledge are the likes of Buddha, Krishna and Jesus. Their insights are expressed using the language, concepts and culture of the people they teach according to the needs of the age in which they manifest. That explains both the universality of their teachings but also their divergent ideas too.
     
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  19. dfnj

    dfnj Well-Known Member

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    There is only one universal objective morality. And that is: Morality is important to have.
     
  20. osgart

    osgart Nothing my eye, Something for sure

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    I still maintain that independent of our subjective experience there are many moral truthes that can be easily construed. They do not have to be tangible to exist. There are basic and even higher levels of such moral truthes.

    They exist in principle as laws of discretion. They serve to make life survivable and worthwhile. If i had to use one word to describe some of these moral truthes it would be founded on the word "deserve".
     
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