Moral Morass

[Nakosis]

J. lives in a small seaside town in France, where he is known as the handyman he is. He can build an entire house with his own hands, as he is skilled in carpentry, plumbing, masonry, roof work, and so on. He demonstrates this every day at his own home, and so people naturally ask him for help. Being extremely nice, J. usually dispenses advice or lends a helping hand. One neighbor, whom he barely knew, kept asking about how to put a skylight in his roof. J. lent him his ladder for the job, but since the man kept returning, he promised to come take a look one day.

J. spent from morning until late evening with the neighbor, basically doing the job on his own (as the neighbor could barely hold a hammer, he said), during which time the neighbor's wife came, cooked, and ate lunch (the main meal in France) with her husband without offering J. anything. By the end of the day, he had successfully put the skylight in, having provided expert labor that normally would have cost more than six hundred euros. J. asked for nothing, but when the same neighbor a few days later talked about a scuba diving course, and how it would be fun to do together, he felt this opened a perfect occasion for a return gift, since the course cost about 150 euros. So J. said he'd love to go, but unfortunately didn't have the money in his budget. By now you can guess: The man went alone.
Source: Moral Sentimentalism (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

Who is moral and who is immoral in this story and why?

What was your moral judgement based on? Truth? Fact? Feelings?

My morals are based on my feelings. Good and bad depend on what I feel is good and what I feel is bad at the moment. The problem being I can't always explain my feelings and therefore certainly can't logically justify them.

In general I am a nice guy. I'm happy to help in most occasions when asked and don't expect anything in return. Occasionally I don't feel like being helpful. I feel however I feel and don't look beyond my feelings to justify my choices.

There are times that I will act against my feelings. IOW, I feel a certain action is bad but I will do it anyway for reasons, rationale, normally along the lines that it is socially expected and I don't feel like dealing with the consequences of going against the social norm. I still feel it is wrong/immoral just less disruptive to my goals at the time.

There are many different views on morals. I accept that I can't rationally justify my concept of right and wrong. Can you?

 

[ChristineM]

Don't know how relevant it is but this happend to hubby yesterday involving a handyman and a favour in reversed scenario.

A knock on the door about 6pm, it was Michele, the neighborhood handyman. Lovely guy but he is a rather lonely by choice with no friends, he just cannot cope well with people, to the extent of spending 25 years in the french foreign legion. He does odd jobs, preferably in gardens or fields so he can be away from people.

Nervously he asked "Can you drive me to the supermarket, i have no paraffin for my heater and it's very cold"

Hubby replied "it is difficult, wife is still in bed recovering from her operation and i dont want to leave her"

Michele went away somewhat down in the mouth.

Hubby thought, he only has a scooter and no way can he carry a 25 litre bottle on that, he shouted to me and asked if i would mind him leaving for 1/2 an hour

No problem.

Hubby called after Michele and away they went

During the return there was something of an argument, Michele wanted to pay for hubbies time with a bottle of wine. Hubby refused. Back and forth, back and forth until hubby said "Michele please, there is no need for payment, you are my friend"

Apparantly the look of surprised contentment that spread over Michele's face was worth all the bottles of wine in france.

 

[BSM1]

With a name like J. you can expect some moral abuse...

 

[sun rise]

I accept that I can't rationally justify my concept of right and wrong. Can you?

To use logic, there has to be a root assumption such as "greatest good for greatest number", karma, love, "do unto others", life is about #1.

Then, of course, life has many grey areas. If you believe that obeying the law is good, then what do you do if someone is sick and you are rushing that person to the ER breaking every traffic law you can without causing an accident to save the person's life.

So then, there's a hierarchy of "right" where saving a life is more right than obeying the law (traffic laws). And so forth.

But the starting point or points are "givens".

 

[Jim]

J. lives in a small seaside town in France, where he is known as the handyman he is. He can build an entire house with his own hands, as he is skilled in carpentry, plumbing, masonry, roof work, and so on. He demonstrates this every day at his own home, and so people naturally ask him for help. Being extremely nice, J. usually dispenses advice or lends a helping hand. One neighbor, whom he barely knew, kept asking about how to put a skylight in his roof. J. lent him his ladder for the job, but since the man kept returning, he promised to come take a look one day.

J. spent from morning until late evening with the neighbor, basically doing the job on his own (as the neighbor could barely hold a hammer, he said), during which time the neighbor's wife came, cooked, and ate lunch (the main meal in France) with her husband without offering J. anything. By the end of the day, he had successfully put the skylight in, having provided expert labor that normally would have cost more than six hundred euros. J. asked for nothing, but when the same neighbor a few days later talked about a scuba diving course, and how it would be fun to do together, he felt this opened a perfect occasion for a return gift, since the course cost about 150 euros. So J. said he'd love to go, but unfortunately didn't have the money in his budget. By now you can guess: The man went alone.
Source: Moral Sentimentalism (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

Who is moral and who is immoral in this story and why?

What was you moral judgement based on? True? Fact? Feelings?

My morals are based on my feelings. Good and bad depend on what I feel is good and what I feel is bad at the moment. The problem being I can't always explain my feelings and therefore certainly can't logically justify them.

In general I am a nice guy. I'm happy to help in most occasions when asked and don't expect anything in return. Occasionally I don't feel like being helpful. I feel however I feel and don't look beyond my feelings to justify my choices.

There are times that I will act against my feelings. IOW, I feel a certain action is bad but I will do it anyway for reasons, rationale, normally along the lines that it is socially expected and I don't feel like dealing with the consequences of going against the social norm. I still feel it is wrong/immoral just less disruptive to my goals at the time.

There are many different views on morals. I accept that I can't rationally justify my concept of right and wrong. Can you?

I don’t label people as moral or immoral. I would need to know a lot more about the context before I would say anything about the morality of any of the behavior in the story.

 

[Revoltingest]

Don't know how relevant it is but this happend to hubby yesterday involving a handyman and a favour in reversed scenario.

A knock on the door about 6pm, it was Michele, the neighborhood handyman. Lovely guy but he is a rather lonely by choice with no friends, he just cannot cope well with people, to the extent of spending 25 years in the french foreign legion. He does odd jobs, preferably in gardens or fields so he can be away from people.

Nervously he asked "Can you drive me to the supermarket, i have no paraffin for my heater and it's very cold"

Hubby replied "it is difficult, wife is still in bed recovering from her operation and i dont want to leave her"

Michele went away somewhat down in the mouth.

Hubby thought, he only has a scooter and no way can he carry a 25 litre bottle on that, he shouted to me and asked if i would mind him leaving for 1/2 an hour

No problem.

Hubby called after Michele and away they went

During the return there was something of an argument, Michele wanted to pay for hubbies time with a bottle of wine. Hubby refused. Back and forth, back and forth until hubby said "Michele please, there is no need for payment, you are my friend"

Apparantly the look of surprised contentment that spread over Michele's face was worth all the bottles of wine in france.

I'd have taken the wine.

 

[Heyo]

There are many different views on morals. I accept that I can't rationally justify my concept of right and wrong. Can you?

I guess our little exchange on https://www.religiousforums.com/thr...-than-someone-who-is-an-atheist.229408/page-8 had an influence towards your decision to post this OP?
I think it is important to try to justify one's concept of right and wrong. When I can't do that, my concepts may be wrong or at least not universal.
Our feelings are influenced by our culture. If we grow up in a society that practices immoral behavior (slavery, capital punishment, discrimination, you name it), that behavior feels normal. Only by thinking about our behavior and comparing it to our basic values, can we overcome the feeling of normality. What we today think of as immoral was daily praxis throughout long times of human history. Only through moral philosophy (and a long process of adaptation) have our ethics changed.
Ask yourself: do animals other than humans have morals? Or do they have instincts? Could you teach a child manners when you accept that their behavior is just a reflection of their feelings? Could you be convinced that your behavior is immoral?

 

[Nakosis]

I guess our little exchange on https://www.religiousforums.com/thr...-than-someone-who-is-an-atheist.229408/page-8 had an influence towards your decision to post this OP?
I think it is important to try to justify one's concept of right and wrong. When I can't do that, my concepts may be wrong or at least not universal.
Our feelings are influenced by our culture. If we grow up in a society that practices immoral behavior (slavery, capital punishment, discrimination, you name it), that behavior feels normal. Only by thinking about our behavior and comparing it to our basic values, can we overcome the feeling of normality. What we today think of as immoral was daily praxis throughout long times of human history. Only through moral philosophy (and a long process of adaptation) have our ethics changed.
Ask yourself: do animals other than humans have morals? Or do they have instincts?

In the case of animals vs humans I don't think we are that different. There is instinct but there is also some learn behavior about what is and is not acceptable behavior even among animals.

Could you teach a child manners when you accept that their behavior is just a reflection of their feelings?

I teach kids based on consequences, in spite of feelings. One may feel angry towards another but if you act on that anger you have to be willing to accept the consequences of however you choose to act. I really don't teach based on right or wrong.

Could you be convinced that your behavior is immoral?

Probably not any more. There is simply no standard or authority I accept when it comes to behavior. To me there is etiquette and ethics based on consequences, not right and wrong. Dealings with others is about effective cooperation not right and wrong.

What I feel is right and wrong depends on who I am and the circumstances I am in. This is my personal morals. However dealing with different people/groups is a matter of etiquette and ethics not morals. Different groups are going to have developed different etiquette and ethics as a matter of cooperation. This doesn't change my morals but it may change my behavior. Depends on which is more important at the time, my morals or corporation. For the sake of cooperation I may act against my morals, or I may not. Depends on the situation and my goals at the time.

For example while I personally feel the death penalty is immoral, the group/state has decided it is a matter of justice. Laws are a matter of cooperation not what any individual such as myself feels is right or wrong.

Abortion as another example I feel is immoral, the state/group has decided otherwise. To me abortion is wrong but the state has decided it is acceptable behavior. I don't think I should insist you accept my morals. You have your morals and I have mine. For cooperation we have laws that the group has decided on.

 

[Nakosis]

I don’t label people as moral or immoral. I would need to know a lot more about the context before I would say anything about the morality of any of the behavior in the story.

I don't either really though I may judge someone else's behavior as right or wrong for me to have done. Their behavior, whatever it was, they have to deal with the consequences.

 

[GoodbyeDave]

Like most traditional pagans (think of Aristotle and Confucius) I subscribe to virtue ethics.

A good action is one that a virtuous person would choose to perform. J is clearly virtuous, since generosity and helpfulness are obvious virtues. The neighbour is not virtuous, since he and his wife lack the virtue of generosity.

The virtues are those traits which make for a successful human life. They obviously don't guarantee it, any more than eating a good diet guarantees good health.
Humans are social animals. Conduct that antagonises others is obviously inappropriate for a social animal, which is why meanness is a vice.

 

[Heyo]

Could you be convinced that your behavior is immoral?

Probably not any more. There is simply no standard or authority I accept when it comes to behavior. To me there is etiquette and ethics based on consequences, not right and wrong. Dealings with others is about effective cooperation not right and wrong.

What I feel is right and wrong depends on who I am and the circumstances I am in. This is my personal morals.

We may have widely differing definitions of morality. Morality, in my book, is all about right and wrong. If your "moral" is, everything is fair, as long as it helps me, I must assume that you will harm, rob or murder me, if it's convenient and you think you can get away with it.
That may be your principle but it is not moral.