• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Moon theories out the window now too!

gnostic

The Lost One
You do realize that Egypt and Greece and Sumer etc were all very shortly post flood and post tower of Babel? Why would people of that day not have stories passed down about the past also? You see they all spoke the same language mere decades before they grew into kingdoms. For example Egypt started about 60 years after the birth of Peleg, or about 54 years after the tower of Babel! Babylon was started only about seven years after the tower of Babel!!!

In the Days of Peleg

Where do you get all these years 60 years, 54 years, 7 years?

You are making guesses, because there are no mention of when the Babel event occurred in Genesis, except that it was after the Flood.

Sources, dad? I am very familiar with Genesis 10 and 11, and nothing in that provide dates as to when Babel was being built. And there are no years given at all Genesis 10.

There are no evidence that Babel ever existing, but some 19th archaeologists thought it might be in Babylon, but the only evidence of anything large existing today, is the base and foundation of Etemenanki, a ruin of Babylon’s ziggurat, said to be 91 metres high. Etemenanki was dedicated to Babylonian god Marduk, and while archaeologists can not pinpoint exactly when it was first constructed (it had been razed by one Neo-Assyrian king named Sennacherib (705 - 681 BCE) and his son and successor Esarhaddon (681 - 669 BCE) started rebuilding the Etemenanki, but not completed til Nebuchadnezzar II), but the original ziggurat was no older than 14th century BCE.

The original Etemenanki was smaller; it was Nebuchadnezzar (605 - 582 BCE) who completed the second Etemenanki, to the height of 91 metres.

The height of Khufu’s Great Pyramid was 146 metres, so much higher than man-made structure, including Etemenanki, as well as being built during Khufu (reign c 2589 - 2566 BCE), a 4th dynasty king. Even Khufu’s successor, Khafre, built the second largest pyramid (136 metres) in Giza, was taller than Nebuchadnezzar’s Etemenanki.

Now unless you have physical evidence that the Tower of Babel existed, Babel is nothing more than a fable written around the 6th century BCE.
 

dad

Undefeated
Choosing science over the imaginings of people who lived 2000-3000 years ago has a lot to do with The Book.

The stories in The Book are so silly that even a ten-year-old could see they were nothing more than tall tales for ignorant people. I know. I was that ten year old who laughed at tall tales about giraffes and lions riding in an ark. I laughed at the tall tale of an angry man in the sky drowning most of his creation. Many years later, I still laugh at the stories and laugh at the people who believe such silliness.
You cannot challenge the fact that origin science stories are faith based then. OK. Your hatred of other faiths is not the issue here.
 

dad

Undefeated
.
Where do you get all these years 60 years, 54 years, 7 years?
I did give the link. We also know that Abraham and Noah are said to be contemporaries in Jewish tradition.

You are making guesses, because there are no mention of when the Babel event occurred in Genesis, except that it was after the Flood.
Well, we do know about when it was.

Sources, dad? I am very familiar with Genesis 10 and 11, and nothing in that provide dates as to when Babel was being built. And there are no years given at all Genesis 10.

We do know Peleg was born after the flood and Jewish tradition does place Babel at about the time he was 5 or 6.
In the link I gave for example we see this about Babylon
"
Babylon begins
The year was 331 BC. After Alexander the Great had defeated Darius at Gaugmela near Arbela, he journeyed to Babylon. Here he received 1903 years of astronomical observations from the Chaldeans, which they claimed dated back to the founding of Babylon. If this was so, then that would place the founding of Babylon in 2234 BC, or about thirteen years after the birth of Peleg. This was recorded in the sixth book of De Caelo (“About the heavens”) by Simplicius, a Latin writer in the 6th century AD. Porphyry (an anti-Christian Greek philosopher, c. 234–305 AD) also deduced the same number.2"

There are no evidence that Babel ever existing, but some 19th archaeologists thought it might be in Babylon, but the only evidence of anything large existing today, is the base and foundation of Etemenanki, a ruin of Babylon’s ziggurat, said to be 91 metres high.
No, I don't think so. Probably the site where the tower was got shoved deep under the surface in the rapid continental movements at about this same time! Uplift, subduction, etc all occurred.

Etemenanki was dedicated to Babylonian god Marduk, and while archaeologists can not pinpoint exactly when it was first constructed (it had been razed by one Neo-Assyrian king named Sennacherib (705 - 681 BCE) and his son and successor Esarhaddon (681 - 669 BCE) started rebuilding the Etemenanki, but not completed til Nebuchadnezzar II), but the original ziggurat was no older than 14th century BCE.
As mentioned, it doesn't matter, that was long after the fact.
.
The height of Khufu’s Great Pyramid was 146 metres, so much higher than man-made structure, including Etemenanki, as well as being built during Khufu (reign c 2589 - 2566 BCE), a 4th dynasty king.
Try supporting those dates!
.
Now unless you have physical evidence that the Tower of Babel existed,
God's word is evidence. The site was likely greatly affected by the events following the nature change. (plate movements etc)..
 

gnostic

The Lost One
The year was 331 BC. After Alexander the Great had defeated Darius at Gaugmela near Arbela, he journeyed to Babylon. Here he received 1903 years of astronomical observations from the Chaldeans, which they claimed dated back to the founding of Babylon. If this was so, then that would place the founding of Babylon in 2234 BC, or about thirteen years after the birth of Peleg. This was recorded in the sixth book of De Caelo (“About the heavens”) by Simplicius, a Latin writer in the 6th century AD. Porphyry (an anti-Christian Greek philosopher, c. 234–305 AD) also deduced the same number.2"
Did you say earlier that if it isn’t found in the Bible, then history is wrong?

And the facts that both Porphyry and Simplicius were centuries after Jesus, they are not contemporaries to when Genesis was written.

A philosopher write all sorts of things, believe in all sorts of things, with religious or non-religious aspects in their schools of thoughts, so Simplicius don’t hold much weight when to date, especially when Genesis 11 never say when the Tower was built.

You have provided dates that you cannot objectively support, from a philosopher over 500 years after Jesus.

The very fact that you don’t have physical evidence that the Tower of Babel existing, points to Babel being a myth, and the people speaking one language and then overnight speak different languages so that they don’t understand each other, is also a myth.

You keep asking for evidence, but you provided none. All you did was referred me to a 5th century philosopher, who make claim 2234 BCE. That’s not evidence, that just more empty claim.
 

dad

Undefeated
Did you say earlier that if it isn’t found in the Bible, then history is wrong?
No. If something opposes the bible though, watch out.

And the facts that both Porphyry and Simplicius were centuries after Jesus, they are not contemporaries to when Genesis was written.

A philosopher write all sorts of things, believe in all sorts of things, with religious or non-religious aspects in their schools of thoughts, so Simplicius don’t hold much weight when to date, especially when Genesis 11 never say when the Tower was built.

"According to the late classical philosopher Simplicius (early 6th century), Alexander ordered the translation of the historical astronomical records under supervision of his chronicler Callisthenes of Olynthus, who sent it to his uncle Aristotle. It is worth mentioning here that although Simplicius is a very late source, his account may be reliable. He spent some time in exile at the Sassanid (Persian) court, and may have accessed sources otherwise lost in the West. It is striking that he mentions the title tèresis (Greek: guard) which is an odd name for a historical work, but is in fact an adequate translation of the Babylonian title massartu meaning "guarding" but also "observing"."

Babylonian astronomy - Wikipedia

You cannot possibly support your dates. Babel is after the flood in Scripture. One of the first major events. So it is not that long after. Peleg was born 101 years after the flood year, and was alive for the tower of Babel according to some sources. The time fits the bible. We also know that the great dividing on earth happened in the days of Peleg. This is associated with not only the different languages, and dividing of nations, but the dividing of continents by some.
The very fact that you don’t have physical evidence that the Tower of Babel existing, points to Babel being a myth

That is unsound. We would not expect evidence if the area was greatly affected. You just don't know what to look for.

, and the people speaking one language and then overnight speak different languages so that they don’t understand each other, is also a myth.
No. It is also doubted for no reason by you.
 

Native

Free Natural Philosopher & Comparative Mythologist
Who cares about myths of unbelievers?
Again who cares what unbelieving idol worshippers and child sacrificers of old thought of the stars?
Not me.
I am not going to call Jesus and the apostles liars, as you know they spoke of the first man and woman and creation.
But you´re having no troubles in believing in a god who sacrified ALL humans but a single "family" in a single event according to the biblical scripts!?
 
Last edited:

gnostic

The Lost One
No, I don't think so. Probably the site where the tower was got shoved deep under the surface in the rapid continental movements at about this same time! Uplift, subduction, etc all occurred.
Oh, man, you are talking craps, making up fantasies as you go.

Do not confuse, YOU making up excuses as facts. They are just more of your biased personal opinions.

You need physical evidence that rapid tectonic movement, which you have not done.

You need physical evidence that the mountains were lower 4500 years ago, which you have not done.

And you’d need physical evidence of global rapid mountain building in the last 4500 years ago, which again, you could never provide any evidence of.

And there are no physical evidence for global flood in the last 6000 years. Physical evidence should be all over the place, which should all point to a single date or year; that’s not case.

No, Tower of Babel was ever found, but some archaeologists have suggested places, but no such structure existed in Babylon. In 2233 BCE, Babylon was a minor town ruled by governors appointed by Akkadian dynasty that ruled Mesopotamia at that time.

No king ruled Babylon as a capital, until the early 20th century BCE, the Amorite dynasty, often referred to as the 1st dynasty of Babylon. That’s when Babylon became important, after 2000 BCE.

And you still think that traditions, particularly religious traditions are history. That’s not case, Jewish traditions and Christian traditions, and traditions of other religions, are not reliable historical records, most of them, are just more folklore, allegories, fables.

So your talk of Simplicius using some lost traditions, is just nothing more than your unsubstantiated fantasies. Pieces of craps.
 

Native

Free Natural Philosopher & Comparative Mythologist
I otherwise descided not to reply more to you in this thread, but then you linked to Babylonian astronomical issues:
It is striking that he mentions the title tèresis (Greek: guard) which is an odd name for a historical work, but is in fact an adequate translation of the Babylonian title massartu meaning "guarding" but also "observing"."
Regarding ancient astronomical observations, this was generally taking place on a high location with the best possible view of the day and night Sky. In several ancient cultures, even higher earth structures and temple buildings are made in this matter.

Furthermore, some ancient cultures even made complex building structures which mirrors the specifics of the Solar System and the Milky Way. Just think of Angkor Wat and several Southamerican temples amongst others. Temples which all was dedicated to the specific deity. i.e. celestial object and its motions on the Sky,

Quotes from - Tower of Babel - Wikipedia
Themes
"The story's theme of competition between God and humans appears elsewhere in Genesis, in the story of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden.[11] The 1st-century Jewish interpretation found in Flavius Josephus explains the construction of the tower as a hubristic act of defiance against God ordered by the arrogant tyrant Nimrod”.

Me: This interpretation smells a lot of the Jewish prohibition against worshipping images and astronomical objects. So no wonder such a Babylonian “Tower practice” of observing astronomical issues would be taken as a hubristic act, which in the Jewish world would demand the usual divine revenge from the one and only invisible long-bearded patriarchal Jewish god.

This interpretation is just a simple Jewish religion dogmatic bias.


"dad" refers above to: " . . .the Babylonian title massartu meaning "guarding" but also "observing". It is said that the Babel Tower was dedicated to the Marduk god in the Sky but this is IMO not quite correct if taking this telling as a concrete tower building - which hasn´t been found either. The terms of "guarding" and "observing" of course fits nicely to the practise of watching the celestial scenario.

"Axis Mundi" and the Tower of Babel
Several ancient cultures notised a fixed piont in the night Sky around which all stars revolves and they marked this point by many terms:

"In a geocentric coordinate system, this is the axis of rotation of the celestial sphere. Consequently, in ancient Greco-Roman astronomy, the axis mundi is the axis of rotation of the planetary spheres of the classical geocentric model of the cosmos.[1]

In 20th-century comparative mythology, the term axis mundi, also called the cosmic axis, world axis, world pillar, center of the world, world tree) was greatly extended to refer to any mythological concept representing "the connection between Heaven and Earth" or the "higher and lower realms".

Me: It is this "Heaven and Earth connection" which represent the very "Tower" in the Babylonian myths as this celestial "tower" or axis connects to the celestial Babylonian god, Marduk in the (Night) sky.

When several cultures adopted this world picture and it´s symbolics, they in fact spoke in a common astronomical and cosmological language: A common language which was strongly prohibited in the Jewish religion: A language of symbols which is largely forgotten in both the Jewish and Christian religion which has lead to a huge Western ignorance of the mytho-cosmological tellings, especially regarding specifics of the Stories of Creation.

No wonder the high priests in the Jewish religion demanded this symbolic tower of a "common language" to be mentally and religiously demolished. In fact they demolished at the same time the genuine cosmological facts in their own story of creation too.

And no wonder too that creationists - and "dad" - only are able to take the entire ancient stories literally as the Jewish religion prohibited their followers to percieve and speak with the common mythical language which provides real knowledge instead of blind dogmatic beliefs.
 
Last edited:

dad

Undefeated
But you´re having no troubles in believing in a god who sacrified ALL humans but a single "family" in a single event according to the biblical scripts!?
Culled the very very very desperately wicked.
 

dad

Undefeated
You need physical evidence that rapid tectonic movement, which you have not done.
You need physical evidence that slow tectonic movement in the past, which you have not done.



You need physical evidence that the mountains were lower 4500 years ago, which you have not done.

You need physical evidence that the mountains were taller 4500 years ago, which you have not done.

And you’d need physical evidence of global rapid mountain building in the last 4500 years ago, which again, you could never provide any evidence of.
Science does know it separated. The question is how fast. You have no dates, only beliefs.

And there are no physical evidence for global flood in the last 6000 years. Physical evidence should be all over the place, which should all point to a single date or year; that’s not case.
Can we rule out the KT layer?
No, Tower of Babel was ever found,
Probably plowed deep under the surface in all the upheaval, uplift, etc.
No king ruled Babylon as a capital, until the early 20th century BCE,
Chapter and verse?

the Amorite dynasty, often referred to as the 1st dynasty of Babylon. That’s when Babylon became important, after 2000 BCE.
The captivity ended in 576BC. So?

And you still think that traditions, particularly religious traditions are history. That’s not case, Jewish traditions and Christian traditions, and traditions of other religions, are not reliable historical records, most of them, are just more folklore, allegories, fables.
In the case of Jewish tradition stories that deal in historical characters, I would not dismiss it all out of hand. It was their people they are talking about. Not made up fantasies.

So your talk of Simplicius using some lost traditions, is just nothing more than your unsubstantiated fantasies. Pieces of craps.
When it comes to dates it is a matter of belief. Your pretension that science knows best on dates is unsubstantiated fantasy.
 

dad

Undefeated
I otherwise descided not to reply more to you in this thread, but then you linked to Babylonian astronomical issues:
I guess we are lucky then?

Regarding ancient astronomical observations, this was generally taking place on a high location with the best possible view of the day and night Sky. In several ancient cultures, even higher earth structures and temple buildings are made in this matter.

Furthermore, some ancient cultures even made complex building structures which mirrors the specifics of the Solar System and the Milky Way. Just think of Angkor Wat and several Southamerican temples amongst others. Temples which all was dedicated to the specific deity. i.e. celestial object and its motions on the Sky,

Quotes from - Tower of Babel - Wikipedia
Themes
"The story's theme of competition between God and humans appears elsewhere in Genesis, in the story of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden.[11] The 1st-century Jewish interpretation found in Flavius Josephus explains the construction of the tower as a hubristic act of defiance against God ordered by the arrogant tyrant Nimrod”.

Me: This interpretation smells a lot of the Jewish prohibition against worshipping images and astronomical objects. So no wonder such a Babylonian “Tower practice” of observing astronomical issues would be taken as a hubristic act, which in the Jewish world would demand the usual divine revenge from the one and only invisible long-bearded patriarchal Jewish god.

This interpretation is just a simple Jewish religion dogmatic bias.


"dad" refers above to: " . . .the Babylonian title massartu meaning "guarding" but also "observing". It is said that the Babel Tower was dedicated to the Marduk god in the Sky but this is IMO not quite correct if taking this telling as a concrete tower building - which hasn´t been found either. The terms of "guarding" and "observing" of course fits nicely to the practise of watching the celestial scenario.

Great changes happened after the time of Babel. The earth was divided. Languages and nations were divided. Probably this is when the rapid continental moves happened also! That allowed animals to get around the world, and people. The tectonic activity in the area of Babylon probably destroyed the site of the tower so we would not expect to find it now on the surface.

"Axis Mundi" and the Tower of Babel
Several ancient cultures notised a fixed piont in the night Sky around which all stars revolves and they marked this point by many terms:

"In a geocentric coordinate system, this is the axis of rotation of the celestial sphere. Consequently, in ancient Greco-Roman astronomy, the axis mundi is the axis of rotation of the planetary spheres of the classical geocentric model of the cosmos.[1]

In 20th-century comparative mythology, the term axis mundi, also called the cosmic axis, world axis, world pillar, center of the world, world tree) was greatly extended to refer to any mythological concept representing "the connection between Heaven and Earth" or the "higher and lower realms".

Me: It is this "Heaven and Earth connection" which represent the very "Tower" in the Babylonian myths as this celestial "tower" or axis connects to the celestial Babylonian god, Marduk in the (Night) sky.

When several cultures adopted this world picture and it´s symbolics, they in fact spoke in a common astronomical and cosmological language: A common language which was strongly prohibited in the Jewish religion: A language of symbols which is largely forgotten in both the Jewish and Christian religion which has lead to a huge Western ignorance of the mytho-cosmological tellings, especially regarding specifics of the Stories of Creation.

No wonder the high priests in the Jewish religion demanded this symbolic tower of a "common language" to be mentally and religiously demolished. In fact they demolished at the same time the genuine cosmological facts in their own story of creation too.

And no wonder too that creationists - and "dad" - only are able to take the entire ancient stories literally as the Jewish religion prohibited their followers to percieve and speak with the common mythical language which provides real knowledge instead of blind dogmatic beliefs.
There are always those who disbelieve Scripture and try to explain it away using mental gymnastics.
 

ecco

Veteran Member
You cannot challenge the fact that origin science stories are faith based then.

The comment was about origin sciences being faith based.

Yes, here it is...

You cannot challenge the fact that origin science stories are faith based then.

...which is why I said I don't understand your comment.

Your notion that "origin science stories are faith based" is nonsensical . It is just something you made up. It doesn't need challenging. It just gets dismissed because it is absurd.

We all realize your need to apply the theological definition of faith to science. But your wanting it to be so, doesn't make it so.
 

dad

Undefeated
Yes, here it is...



...which is why I said I don't understand your comment.

Your notion that "origin science stories are faith based" is nonsensical . It is just something you made up. It doesn't need challenging. It just gets dismissed because it is absurd.

We all realize your need to apply the theological definition of faith to science. But your wanting it to be so, doesn't make it so.
A simple test is possible here. Prove that any main origin claim is more than faith based. Ha.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
In the case of Jewish tradition stories that deal in historical characters, I would not dismiss it all out of hand. It was their people they are talking about. Not made up fantasies.

When it comes to dates it is a matter of belief. Your pretension that science knows best on dates is unsubstantiated fantasy.
Except that you provided date to events and to people who don’t except in stories in the Bible and in traditions that WEREN’T COMPOSED CONTEMPORARY to these events and people.

You posted a date (2234 BCE) to the construction of Babylon and Tower of Babel to that of the patriarch Peleg, to a 6th century CE Latin philosopher Simplicius who wrote a story about Chaldean astronomers informing Alexander the Great, (Simplicius writing) some 800 years after the battle of Gaugmela (331 BCE).

You don’t find your claims all that strange, that you willing to agree with are writing about a philosopher who wasn’t contemporary to Alexander and the Chaldean astronomers, and Macedonian general and astronomers who weren’t contemporaries to Babylon, and yet you are willing to reject everything physical that can be dated and tied to Babylon and the absence of Babel (except with your claim that it was buried beneath uplift and subduction, which cannot prove)?

Man, dad, you are hypocrite because you can reject physical evidence and yet rely on on dating from philosopher, who writing about Alexander meeting astronomers in 331 BCE. That’s double standard.

How do you know such a meeting took place between Alexander and astronomers?

You do realize that most of authors who wrote biographies of Alexander weren’t contemporaries to Alexander, and invented legends about some of his exploits that didn’t happen?

All you have is hearsay from a philosopher that you cannot in any way prove. No other biographers of Alexander the Great, wrote of such encounter and about Alexander finding out about Babylon founding.

Without written records to collaborate Simplicius’ claim, then we know that Simplicius is making it all up.

You do realize that it was the Amorites who started the first dynasty in Babylon, not the Chaldeans?

The Chaldeans were only around in Mesopotamia in early 1st millennium BCE, and created the 3rd dynasty starting with Nabopolassar in 625 BCE, who was father of Nebuchadnezzar II.

The area known as Chaldea, between Ur and the Persian Gulf, was inhabitable through much of the 2nd millennium BCE, because it was marshland during the 1st dynasty of Babylon who were Amorites and 2nd dynasty of Babylon who were Kassites.

During the 4th and 3rd millennia BCE, the shoreline of the Persian Gulf were further inland than in Nabopolassar’s and Nebuchadnezzar’s days, and the Sumerian cities Ur and Eridu were port cities.

Apart from their occupations of Babylon in different periods in history, the Amorites and Chaldeans weren’t unrelated to each other.

Which is nothing wrong about Genesis:

“Genesis 11:31” said:
31 Terah took his son Abram and his grandson Lot son of Haran, and his daughter-in-law Sarai, his son Abram’s wife, and they went out together from Ur of the Chaldeans to go into the land of Canaan; but when they came to Haran, they settled there.

Ur was formerly and originally Sumerian city found around 3800 BCE. The last Sumerian dynasties of Ur was the 3rd dynasty of Ur before Amorites occupation 200 years later.

The Chaldeans weren’t Sumerians too. So based on what we know about Babylon and Ur, the Chaldeans weren’t around 9th century BCE.

The first Amorite king to rule Babylon was Sumu-abum, who started the dynasty in 1897 BCE. But Sumu-abum was a minor king, and Babylon was still unimportant city. Babylon didn’t become important until Sumu-abum’s descendant, the 6th king, Hammurabi (c 1810 - 1750 BCE), who started the empire, and conqured all the lands between Euphrates and Tigris.

Babylon was a minor a city also in Sumerian and Akkadian. Babylon was first mentioned during the reign of Sargon of Akkad, reign 2234 to 2284 BCE, who started the Akkadian dynasty and the Akkadian empire.

Archaeology haven’t been able to find Agade, a city of Akkad (biblical Accad in Genesis 10), but according to tablet, Babylon was located near Agade.

There are connections of Babylon to Sargon, but there are no physical and literary records of Genesis Nimrod. Sargon is not found with a number of objects (including a figurines of his head and clay tablets that were dated to 24th century BCE with his name, he was also listed in the king lists.

Sargon, many evidence; Nimrod, zilch.

There are also many evidence of the Amorite Hammurabi, including tablets and even more importantly a stone column (now exhibited at the Louvre) with inscriptions of his codification of the earliest known laws in the Middle East, known as the Codes of Hammurabi.
 
Last edited:

dad

Undefeated
Except that you provided date to events and to people who don’t except in stories in the Bible and in traditions that WEREN’T COMPOSED CONTEMPORARY to these events and people.
Written records are not needed until the time God saw fit to give us a written record.

You posted a date (2234 BCE) to the construction of Babylon and Tower of Babel to that of the patriarch Peleg, to a 6th century CE Latin philosopher Simplicius who wrote a story about Chaldean astronomers informing Alexander the Great, (Simplicius writing) some 800 years after the battle of Gaugmela (331 BCE).

You don’t find your claims all that strange, that you willing to agree with are writing about a philosopher who wasn’t contemporary to Alexander and the Chaldean astronomers, and Macedonian general and astronomers who weren’t contemporaries to Babylon,
Since we know when Abraham, and Peleg and Noah and Babel were more or less, I have no reason to reject dates that are close.

and yet you are willing to reject everything physical that can be dated and tied to Babylon and the absence of Babel (except with your claim that it was buried beneath uplift and subduction, which cannot prove)?
Nothing can be dated, your belief based attempts at dating are wrong, and very wrong.

Man, dad, you are hypocrite because you can reject physical evidence and yet rely on on dating from philosopher, who writing about Alexander meeting astronomers in 331 BCE. That’s double standard.
Your belief in a same nature past and dates derived from that belief are not physical evidence. They are pipe dreams based on nothing and fantasy. Get over them.

How do you know such a meeting took place between Alexander and astronomers?
Well, we do have records of Alexander chatting to folks in Israel, and being impressed at the prophesy about him that he was informed about. I have no reason to doubt that conquering kings would have some interest in gleaning knowledge from places they defeated.

You do realize that most of authors who wrote biographies of Alexander weren’t contemporaries to Alexander, and invented legends about some of his exploits that didn’t happen?
Well, maybe they had access to some info that modern man really doesn't have. Who knows?

Without written records to collaborate Simplicius’ claim, then we know that Simplicius is making it all up.
Well he had enough to make a record of what he knew and found out. Not like you are contemporary with him, and in any position to doubt his work. All you can do is admit not knowing.

You do realize that it was the Amorites who started the first dynasty in Babylon, not the Chaldeans?
Firstly, why would I care? And secondly...source?

The Chaldeans were only around in Mesopotamia in early 1st millennium BCE, and created the 3rd dynasty starting with Nabopolassar in 625 BCE, who was father of Nebuchadnezzar II.

The area known as Chaldea, between Ur and the Persian Gulf, was inhabitable through much of the 2nd millennium BCE, because it was marshland during the 1st dynasty of Babylon who were Amorites and 2nd dynasty of Babylon who were Kassites.
The importance of kingdoms in the area related to Israel. Babylon was prophesied to take them captive, as they did.

Now if you want to offer dates for earliest Babylon, get to it. Let's see the basis.

During the 4th and 3rd millennia BCE, the shoreline of the Persian Gulf were further inland than in Nabopolassar’s and Nebuchadnezzar’s days, and the Sumerian cities Ur and Eridu were port cities.
Point? There were cities, so? Your dates are wrong.

Ur was formerly and originally Sumerian city found around 3800 BCE.
Why continue spamming beliefs as dates when you have been repeatedly exposed as being totally unable to support them?

The last Sumerian dynasties of Ur was the 3rd dynasty of Ur before Amorites occupation 200 years later.
So Sumer had influence in the area also...so what?

The Chaldeans weren’t Sumerians too. So based on what we know about Babylon and Ur, the Chaldeans weren’t around 9th century BCE.
What dates does the bible give?

The first Amorite king to rule Babylon was Sumu-abum, who started the dynasty in 1897 BCE. But Sumu-abum was a minor king, and Babylon was still unimportant city. Babylon didn’t become important until Sumu-abum’s descendant, the 6th king, Hammurabi (c 1810 - 1750 BCE), who started the empire, and conqured all the lands between Euphrates and Tigris.

Tell us how you think this affects Scripture?


Babylon was a minor a city also in Sumerian and Akkadian. Babylon was first mentioned during the reign of Sargon of Akkad, reign 2234 to 2284 BCE, who started the Akkadian dynasty and the Akkadian empire.

Archaeology haven’t been able to find Agade, a city of Akkad (biblical Accad in Genesis 10), but according to tablet, Babylon was located near Agade.
They haven't found some little 'city' yet. So what?

There are connections of Babylon to Sargon, but there are no physical and literary records of Genesis Nimrod.
So our records are older than yours. Great. We have records of Nimrod. You don't. So?

Sargon is not found with a number of objects (including a figurines of his head and clay tablets that were dated to 24th century BCE with his name, he was also listed in the king lists.
We should care about Sargon, because...?
Sargon, many evidence; Nimrod, zilch.
You have weak abilities in history, so?

There are also many evidence of the Amorite Hammurabi, including tablets and even more importantly a stone column (now exhibited at the Louvre) with inscriptions of his codification of the earliest known laws in the Middle East, known as the Codes of Hammurabi.
And..so?
 

gnostic

The Lost One
Well, we do have records of Alexander chatting to folks in Israel, and being impressed at the prophesy about him that he was informed about. I have no reason to doubt that conquering kings would have some interest in gleaning knowledge from places they defeated.
Except the older biographers don’t say any thing about prophecies Alexander. These stories were invented centuries later.

Not much credence are given to later biographies or histories, because later biographers and historians have tendencies to distort, embellish or exaggerate events, therefore less reliable as sources.

It is basic history 101. Preferably, contemporary sources or near contemporary sources are better than ones fifty or one hundred years later. Even less reliable are sources written two or more centuries later.

There is 2000 years between the fictional Tower of Babel to Alexander, and another 800 years between Simplicius and his invented story about astronomers.

You talk of archaeology being unreliable with dating methods, but you are relying on the hearsay of philosopher having more credence, just show ignorant and illogical you are.

No one can be this uneducated with history. But apparently you take the winning prize for being uneducated.

History, written history is only reliable, in two possible ways:
  1. if you have archaeological evidence to verify the event,
  2. or if you have contemporary and multiple independent sources to verify each other.
And ideally you would have both.

And in the case, of Genesis Tower of Babel,

  1. there are no archaeological evidence of its existence in your claim 2234 BCE.
  2. And there are no written records contemporary to 2234, which write of Babel’s existence.
So that’s 2 strikes.

And other than Simplicius’ story, there other no other sources that any meeting took place between Alexander and the Chaldean astronomers. So that’s strike 3.
 

ecco

Veteran Member
A simple test is possible here. Prove that any main origin claim is more than faith based. Ha.
Nuclear Physics has shown the earth to be about 4.5 billion years old. That means the earth originated about 4.5 billion years ago. If you don't believe in nuclear physics...
Trinity_Detonation_T%26B.jpg
 
Last edited:

ecco

Veteran Member
There are also many evidence of the Amorite Hammurabi, including tablets and even more importantly a stone column (now exhibited at the Louvre) with inscriptions of his codification of the earliest known laws in the Middle East, known as the Codes of Hammurabi.

I realize that your posts fall on the deaf ears of the person to whom you direct them. However, I, and I'll assume other rational people, find them very knowledgable and informative.

So, keep on trying to educate @dad. I'll gain from it.
 
Top