Moon Sightings

[thuban]

Aslaam Alaikum

This is a problem that I have every year. Different Masjids in one community differ in their determining of the new moon, to start Ramadan and celebrate Eid, this year was no different, with a small muslim community split on the issue

The Big Debate:
Some use the argument that Calculation is the better option
others that we should as a community visually see the new moon.

what i want to know is what opinion does your local Masjid use and do you think this is correct.

(I agree with the later, Calculation should not be used.)

 

[Mujahid Mohammed]

I look for the moon as Allah states in the Quran. People do what they do. They feel they are smarter than Allah even though he controls the movements of the heavens and earth.

 

[thuban]

I look for the moon as Allah states in the Quran. People do what they do. They feel they are smarter than Allah even though he controls the movements of the heavens and earth.

Thats what the the question was, HOW

The 2 arguments of the debate have legitimacy, but what do you follow

 

[Mujahid Mohammed]

Thats what the the question was, HOW

The 2 arguments of the debate have legitimacy, but what do you follow

Only one argument has legitimacy. Allah says to look for the moon not look at some mathmatical chart to determine when it begins. They have calculated in my area the moon for the next 5 years. I mean who do we follow mathmeticians or the one who created the concept of math and math itself and is the one who controls the orbits in order for them to half way calculate it. Are these guys nuts or what and I think it is clear from my post which one I follow.

How? You can ask that about many issues in reference to muslims rejecting known principles of religion. Why do the Bahai's, Nation of Islam etc. follow another prophet. Why do sisters feel they do not have to wear the hijab, why do we have muslims defending the rights of Homosexuals to spread it through society. Why do many muslims smoke weed and drink and feel it is not necessary. why do muslims reject the sunnah. why do muslims stap bombs to themselves and kill civilians. With all that and other issues the question should be why are you suprised? I mean look at the state we are in and the knowledge the majority of the Ummah has on the religion. Everyone wants to interpret it or make modifications to the teachings because they feel it needs to be changed or updated according to the times.

It is a ridiculous notion, but the Prophet told us about all of this in the Book of Trial in Bukhari of his Sahih.

Peace.

 

[thuban]

Jazakallah brother for correcting me. There is only i legitimate method of moon sighting, which is using the visual method.

The point i was making may not be an issue in brother Mujahids community, but is a major cause of debate in mine. The argument that calculation is permissable if the moon cannot be seen (especially in the west) is held by good muslims, who practice, and pray their namaaz, in my community. When these muslims learn what the debate is about, they become aware of the past scholars that favoured either of the positions, the conclusion is then obvious if they are sincere.

Does this issue cause a yearly debate, that is never really resolved in any other community in the world, or is this an isolated incident, if it is then i'll shut up.

Salaam

 

[Mujahid Mohammed]

Jazakallah brother for correcting me. There is only i legitimate method of moon sighting, which is using the visual method.

The point i was making may not be an issue in brother Mujahids community, but is a major cause of debate in mine. The argument that calculation is permissable if the moon cannot be seen (especially in the west) is held by good muslims, who practice, and pray their namaaz, in my community. When these muslims learn what the debate is about, they become aware of the past scholars that favoured either of the positions, the conclusion is then obvious if they are sincere.

Does this issue cause a yearly debate, that is never really resolved in any other community in the world, or is this an isolated incident, if it is then i'll shut up.

Salaam

It is a issue in my community but the scholars and students of knowledge have chosen to ignore these deviant islamic organizations who ascribe to this idiotic way of thinking. Many laymans follow whoever blindly without finding out for themselves.

it will be resolved on the day of judgment when some of these people's fast will be invalid.

 

[TashaN]

Does this issue cause a yearly debate, that is never really resolved in any other community in the world, or is this an isolated incident, if it is then i'll shut up.

Salaam

Yes thuban, it cause a yearly debate even in Saudi Arabia but the offecial opinion is to see the moon in the typical way. This is not an isolated incident and you don't have to shut my brother whether you have a point in somthing or not.

It is a issue in my community but the scholars and students of knowledge have chosen to ignore these deviant islamic organizations who ascribe to this idiotic way of thinking. Many laymans follow whoever blindly without finding out for themselves.

it will be resolved on the day of judgment when some of these people's fast will be invalid.

Well, we don't want to be extreme in defending our opinions as the only valid way of truth especially when the scholars disagree sometimes in some issues.

Remember that even the Sahabat "companions" of prophet Mohammed had a disagreement in a crucial thing which is collecting the Quran in one book and the narrations have recorded their disagreement and having several different opinions but after all, they were taking the opinion of the majority or the Khalifah of that time in some cases.

The hadith "in it's meaning" says: (fast when you see it "the moon at the beginning of Ramadan", and eat when you see it "at the end of the month").

Now, can you tell for sure for instance if there is any difference whether by seeing it by our eyes or through technology?

Here where the Muslim world differed at the last few years but they still with the opinion of the traditional way in seeing it by any eye-witness muslim.

 

[Mujahid Mohammed]

Well, we don't want to be extreme in defending our opinions as the only valid way of truth especially when the scholars disagree sometimes in some issues.

what do you mean extremes and what scholars every scholar in my area disagrees with using the math. They decided to use the visual sightings but some quote un quote muslim organizations are the one pushing forth this agenda.

Remember that even the Sahabat "companions" of prophet Mohammed had a disagreement in a crucial thing which is collecting the Quran in one book and the narrations have recorded their disagreement and having several different opinions but after all, they were taking the opinion of the majority or the Khalifah of that time in some cases.

Yeah but their disagreements were many times over little issues. And the issue of Quran was in preservation of the Sunnah of Rasulullah. Now the issue is terms of Ramadan is a known principle and the method of knowing when it begins is clear in the Quran and Sunnah.

The hadith "in it's meaning" says: (fast when you see it "the moon at the beginning of Ramadan", and eat when you see it "at the end of the month").

Now, can you tell for sure for instance if there is any difference whether by seeing it by our eyes or through technology?

Absolutely for instance not this Ramadan but the past Ramadan they used the calender the math. And they did not see the moon till the following night even in Saudi and other densely muslim populated areas. So they were fasting in the month of Shaban. And they finished it before Ramadan was actually over. Science is not superior to the commands of Allah. Allah is the one who created any scientific principle and our ability to figure things out anyways. He says clearly look for the moon. Math is not always exact especially when you are talking about celestial bodies. for their movements sometimes change.

Here where the Muslim world differed at the last few years but they still with the opinion of the traditional way in seeing it by any eye-witness muslim.

Some do but those who use those charts can be led into other things because they are so quick to take the opinions of people instead of doing what Allah says.

 

[TashaN]

what do you mean extremes and what scholars every scholar in my area disagrees with using the math. They decided to use the visual sightings but some quote un quote muslim organizations are the one pushing forth this agenda.

I meant that we can't say that their fasting might be unvalid as you said in your pervious post. If it happened that they disagree so it wasn't because of vain desires but by reasoning the wisdom in sighting the moon whether they agree or disagree.

Yeah but their disagreements were many times over little issues. And the issue of Quran was in preservation of the Sunnah of Rasulullah. Now the issue is terms of Ramadan is a known principle and the method of knowing when it begins is clear in the Quran and Sunnah.

Do you know what is the problem?

When two countries near to each other start fasting Ramadan in different days. Why is that?

Absolutely for instance not this Ramadan but the past Ramadan they used the calender the math. And they did not see the moon till the following night even in Saudi and other densely muslim populated areas. So they were fasting in the month of Shaban. And they finished it before Ramadan was actually over. Science is not superior to the commands of Allah. Allah is the one who created any scientific principle and our ability to figure things out anyways. He says clearly look for the moon. Math is not always exact especially when you are talking about celestial bodies. for their movements sometimes change.

I'm with you in the matter of sighting the moon and i'm with the traditional way described in the Sunnah but i was making a point that Muslims might disagree in fasting Ramadn even in the same country which is totally insane.

This year in Ramadan which we just finished fasting it, in Saudi Arabia the month of Sha'aban finished only in the 29th because they saw the moon, here in Malaysia we started fasting after finishing Sha'aban as 30 days as usual because in the Malaysian calender, Ramadan is already setteled and this is wrong in my oppinion but we were told by many scholars when we asked them about it to follow the Muslim community in Malaysia whatever their way is in counting the days. The difference between Malaysia was only 1 day but if Saudi Arabia decided at the end of Ramadan to fast only 29 days it would be 2 days difference for the first time, thank God they finished it as 30 days because they didn't see it.

I'm not with the opinion which state that they should use fixed time and calculations but i would like to ask what about seeing the moon from the Space at the end of Sha'aban to see the moon, what do you think?

It's not fixed but they will use the same method in seeing the moon but instead of seeing it from earth, they will watch it from the Space to be more accurate, what do you think?

 

[bangsamoro]

Assalamo Alaikom to all my brother in Islam.

Moon sightings is very important in Islamic beliefs, because this is the guide to the beginning of the two pillars of Islam (Ramadan and Hajj seasons).

 

[Mujahid Mohammed]

I meant that we can't say that their fasting might be unvalid as you said in your pervious post. If it happened that they disagree so it wasn't because of vain desires but by reasoning the wisdom in sighting the moon whether they agree or disagree.

Aki, When Allah says in the Quran to look for the Moon, yet a muslim feels that going off of calculations is better. what is vain desire. You desire to do what Allah says or not. If you do other wise what is the reason honestly for them to do it. It is spelled out for us clearly in the Book of Allah. So if one chooses science over the Truth of Quran then what is next. That is literally like saying Allah's command is not sufficient and is not is what is best for us, we need another method. Come on now you and I both know better than that.

Do you know what is the problem?

When two countries near to each other start fasting Ramadan in different days. Why is that?

It wouldn't matter because if Saudi saw the moon, they naturally would see it before us because they are ahead of us 1/2 a day anyways. And if they saw it We would find out.

I'm with you in the matter of sighting the moon and i'm with the traditional way described in the Sunnah but i was making a point that Muslims might disagree in fasting Ramadn even in the same country which is totally insane.

exactly

This year in Ramadan which we just finished fasting it, in Saudi Arabia the month of Sha'aban finished only in the 29th because they saw the moon, here in Malaysia we started fasting after finishing Sha'aban as 30 days as usual because in the Malaysian calender, Ramadan is already setteled and this is wrong in my oppinion but we were told by many scholars when we asked them about it to follow the Muslim community in Malaysia whatever their way is in counting the days. The difference between Malaysia was only 1 day but if Saudi Arabia decided at the end of Ramadan to fast only 29 days it would be 2 days difference for the first time, thank God they finished it as 30 days because they didn't see it.

Subhanallah

I'm not with the opinion which state that they should use fixed time and calculations but i would like to ask what about seeing the moon from the Space at the end of Sha'aban to see the moon, what do you think?

It's not fixed but they will use the same method in seeing the moon but instead of seeing it from earth, they will watch it from the Space to be more accurate, what do you think?

Eh if you are in space you will see it when others will not anyways. the ship could travel at the same rate as the earth and see it half of the day. if it hovers it could see it continuously. We must site it from earth. This is our abode and where the rulings of certain issues apply. Not saying that there is no room for debate on the rulings for if we are in space but the rulings for what to do while on earth are clear.

 

[ALI JAAN]

its a well balanced arguement but needs to be tackled from a modern islamic perspective

 

[yousaf]

you should use the moon sighting method calculation has got no space whatsoever in Islam
if its for eid than a big group of pious males will be needed but if its ramadhaan a few pious people will suffice