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Featured Monotheists: How do you know that your god is the most powerful being?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Hubert Farnsworth, May 17, 2019.

  1. Baroodi

    Baroodi Active Member

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    Impossible to have more than one God, if that happen it means only one thing and that is havoc and disharmony. Two captains would sink the boat. Quran puts it clear (If there are gods beside Allah, disarray is inevitable)
     
  2. dianaiad

    dianaiad Well-Known Member

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    what is the method called 'scientific?"

    What are the steps used to discover truth?

    Aren't they the same for scientists looking for objective facts to support or debunk hypotheses? you gather evidence, examine it, come to some conclusion, then examine further evidence to determine whether your conclusion is accurate. If it works, great...if it doesn't, you go back and look some more until your conclusions match the evidence you have.

    The DIFFERENCE between religion and 'science' is the evidence one looks at. For what we call 'science,' the evidence has to be objective. For religion, the evidence can be subjective, since religion...faith...is about internal feelings and private communication with deity that someone else might not be able to repeat.

    However, once the evidence is accepted, the method for dealing with it is the same for everybody.

    Hey, I have been taught all my life that the way to find religious truth is to read scriptures, study them...and pray about ithem. I have been assured that if I put in the work to read and study (and that means doing the research, not just memorizing stuff) then when I pray, I'll get an answer from God confirming my conclusions...or letting me know that I'm all wet and I have to go back to the 'drawing board,' so to speak. This has worked well for me.

    The 'scientific method' is like that...well, absent the confirmation from God through prayer. One reads and studies, gathers evidence, and comes to conclusions. Science stops there...or rather, goes back to the studying and gathering evidence. It's the communication with deity that is the big difference.
     
  3. Shad

    Shad Veteran Member

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    As it is only loosely associated with Christianity we know today and a dead sect.
     
  4. MJFlores

    MJFlores Well-Known Member

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    First you have to have the truth
    Learning about the truth is knowledge
    Having faith results in knowledge
    These combination of the truth of the knowledge about God and my faith in Him
    provides me the undoubting and firm conviction in the truth
    and when I pray, I do not doubt that somebody hears me
    I always thank the Father for the many blessing He gave, the life my family have
    I ask the Father to forgive my sins, so I would see His promises to His chosen on the last day
    I ask all of these in the holy name of His Son, Jesus Christ

    Blind faith is accepting any religious concept as is even though it is a lie
    A lie cannot save and leads to another lie, and another lie

    Creation of the world by itself is the knowledge of God
    Without God, all things would not exist

    Romans 1:18-20 New International Version (NIV)
    The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.
     
  5. Father Heathen

    Father Heathen Veteran Member

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    Why would it not be considered a form of Christianity just because it doesn't jive with contemporary, mainstream Christianity? If Christianity underwent radical shifts centuries from now, to the point that it ceased to exist in the form as we know it today, would current Christianity cease to be Christianity?
     
  6. Shad

    Shad Veteran Member

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    As it is polytheistic outright.


    Yes in my view. Look at Islam and Mormonism for example. Both borrow but are hardly Christianity as the additions separate them from the rest.
     
  7. Jos

    Jos Well-Known Member

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    But the scientific method addresses phenomena present only in the natural world or physical world whereas religion deals with phenomena that is beyond the natural/physical world... I get what you're saying but the scientific method might not be useful for determining truth about things that are beyond the natural world but then again, if the supernatural exists then it would be part of the natural world.
    If the evidence is subjective doesn't that mean that everyone can both be right and wrong at the same time?
     
  8. Jos

    Jos Well-Known Member

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    Right, as I said before, with religion you need faith in order to know things about God but you seemed to be saying the opposite before.
    Didn't Jesus say to be as humble as a little child? And doesn't the Bible say that no man can see God unless He has faith? That implies that God wants blind belief.
    That implies that atheists don't actually exist but if that's the case then why bother proselytizing?
     
  9. dianaiad

    dianaiad Well-Known Member

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    That's a bit of a contradiction in terms, don't you think?

    On the other hand, I do believe that the 'supernatural' IS a part of the natural world. We just don't know all the 'rules' or 'laws' yet.

    The 'scientific method..."

    Steps in the Scientific Process
    • Step 1: Ask a question.
    • Step 2: Do background research. ...
    • Step 3: Construct a hypothesis. ...
    • Step 4: Test your hypothesis by doing an experiment. ...
    • Step 5: Analyze the data and draw a conclusion. ...
    • Step 6: Share your results.
    this set of steps works just fine in religion. The difference, as I mentioned, is only about what evidence is used.

    For instance:

    Step 1; Ask a question: "Was Jesus the Savior?"
    Step 2. Do background research: read the scriptures, read histories that mention Jesus as a person, read later works referring to Him.
    Step 3: Construct a hypothesis: Jesus is the Messiah, the Savior.
    Step 4: Test your hypothesis by doing an experiment: Pray. Ask God about it.
    Step 5: Analyze the date and draw a conclusion: get a positive answer...yes, He is the Savior
    .....................................................................................get a negative answer, or no answer...possibly not.
    Step 6: Share your results: 'witness,' or share your testimony, be a missionary about what you have found out.

    The steps, as you see, are the same. What is DIFFERENT is the type of evidence one accepts. The process is pretty much the same, but the sort of experiment used in religion is very subjective and personal.

    Sorta like logic; one can be perfectly logical in an argument based upon a false premise, and incredibly illogical even when the premise is true.

    They certainly believe/think they can.

    Of course, I am the one who is right. Just ask me.
     
    #49 dianaiad, May 19, 2019
    Last edited: May 19, 2019
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  10. Father Heathen

    Father Heathen Veteran Member

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    I think you misunderstood my question, as those examples don't fit (and I still consider Mormonism a form of Christianity, albeit a zany variant.)
     
  11. ideogenous_mover

    ideogenous_mover Well-Known Member

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    I forget the particulars as it complicated, but I know that has something to do with Gnosticism. Gnosticism was a very early form of Christianity that was around in first few centuries, and it had stuff like that in it. Matter of fact I think I'll make that the topic of the next book I read, might as well.
     
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  12. Firemorphic

    Firemorphic Activist Membrane

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    Exactly! And I even specified it here: Monotheists: How do you know that your god is the most powerful being?
     
  13. ideogenous_mover

    ideogenous_mover Well-Known Member

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    That's a good point, the classical outlook on god does typically frame that kind of god, both one that is monotheisticly worshiped and described as singular in span. The ironic part part about that, is that the classical world was probably a highly theologically diverse world at one time, and perhaps the ancient Israelites for example thought themselves to be partaking of henotheism.

    Side note: Is there a way to lock custom font settings?
     
  14. ideogenous_mover

    ideogenous_mover Well-Known Member

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  15. Firemorphic

    Firemorphic Activist Membrane

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    If you'd read any of the texts in the Nag Hammadi library, half of the texts in that collection are from the Sethian sect, so it's kind of the most infamous Gnostic sect cause we have more info on them than a lot of the others. They're the sect that believed matter was inherently evil as well (which is commonly mistaken to be Gnosticism in general).
    Sethianism is one of those things that particularly for those who grow up Christian, is a perplexing thing to read about at first. Very amazing texts though, I love reading them (and texts from other Gnostic sects).
     
  16. MJFlores

    MJFlores Well-Known Member

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    Faith is the result of knowing who is invisible.

    Hebrews 11 New International Version (NIV)
    Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see. This is what the ancients were commended for.

    By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible.
    upload_2019-5-20_12-47-46.jpeg
    By faith Abel brought God a better offering than Cain did. By faith he was commended as righteous, when God spoke well of his offerings. And by faith Abel still speaks, even though he is dead.
    upload_2019-5-20_12-48-32.jpeg
    By faith Enoch was taken from this life, so that he did not experience death: “He could not be found, because God had taken him away.” For before he was taken, he was commended as one who pleased God. And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.
    upload_2019-5-20_12-49-6.jpeg
    By faith Noah, when warned about things not yet seen, in holy fear built an ark to save his family. By his faith he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness that is in keeping with faith.
    [​IMG]
    By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going. By faith he made his home in the promised land like a stranger in a foreign country; he lived in tents, as did Isaac and Jacob, who were heirs with him of the same promise. For he was looking forward to the city with foundations, whose architect and builder is God. And by faith even Sarah, who was past childbearing age, was enabled to bear children because she considered him faithful who had made the promise. And so from this one man, and he as good as dead, came descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as countless as the sand on the seashore.

    All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance, admitting that they were foreigners and strangers on earth. People who say such things show that they are looking for a country of their own. If they had been thinking of the country they had left, they would have had opportunity to return. Instead, they were longing for a better country—a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them.
    upload_2019-5-20_12-51-1.jpeg
    By faith Abraham, when God tested him, offered Isaac as a sacrifice. He who had embraced the promises was about to sacrifice his one and only son, even though God had said to him, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.” Abraham reasoned that God could even raise the dead, and so in a manner of speaking he did receive Isaac back from death.
    upload_2019-5-20_12-52-36.jpeg
    By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau in regard to their future.

    By faith Jacob, when he was dying, blessed each of Joseph’s sons, and worshiped as he leaned on the top of his staff.

    By faith Joseph, when his end was near, spoke about the exodus of the Israelites from Egypt and gave instructions concerning the burial of his bones.
    upload_2019-5-20_12-53-17.jpeg
    By faith Moses’ parents hid him for three months after he was born, because they saw he was no ordinary child, and they were not afraid of the king’s edict.

    By faith Moses, when he had grown up, refused to be known as the son of Pharaoh’s daughter. He chose to be mistreated along with the people of God rather than to enjoy the fleeting pleasures of sin. He regarded disgrace for the sake of Christ as of greater value than the treasures of Egypt, because he was looking ahead to his reward. By faith he left Egypt, not fearing the king’s anger; he persevered because he saw him who is invisible. By faith he kept the Passover and the application of blood, so that the destroyer of the firstborn would not touch the firstborn of Israel.

    By faith the people passed through the Red Sea as on dry land; but when the Egyptians tried to do so, they were drowned.

    By faith the walls of Jericho fell, after the army had marched around them for seven days.

    By faith the prostitute Rahab, because she welcomed the spies, was not killed with those who were disobedient.

    And what more shall I say? I do not have time to tell about Gideon, Barak, Samson and Jephthah, about David and Samuel and the prophets, who through faith conquered kingdoms, administered justice, and gained what was promised; who shut the mouths of lions, quenched the fury of the flames, and escaped the edge of the sword; whose weakness was turned to strength; and who became powerful in battle and routed foreign armies. Women received back their dead, raised to life again. There were others who were tortured, refusing to be released so that they might gain an even better resurrection. Some faced jeers and flogging, and even chains and imprisonment. They were put to death by stoning; they were sawed in two; they were killed by the sword. They went about in sheepskins and goatskins, destitute, persecuted and mistreated— the world was not worthy of them. They wandered in deserts and mountains, living in caves and in holes in the ground.

    These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised, since God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.

    Blind faith is different
    Blind faith is fanatical faith

    Fanaticism is a belief or behavior involving uncritical zeal or with an obsessive enthusiasm. Philosopher George Santayana defines fanaticism as "redoubling your effort when you have forgotten your aim". The fanatic displays very strict standards and little tolerance for contrary ideas or opinions.
     
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  17. ideogenous_mover

    ideogenous_mover Well-Known Member

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    Yes I had read some of it maybe 10 years ago, but it's not in good order in my mind seeing as it had radical elements that I probably didn't know how integrate. Weren't they preserved in an ancient room that was only found in like the 70's or 80's, that in itself seems amazing.
     
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  18. Firemorphic

    Firemorphic Activist Membrane

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    Close enough, they where a bunch of papyri codex's found in a cave in town of Nag Hammadi which is in Qena Governorate, Egypt. The codex's themselves are a collection of assorted Gnostic texts (there is also a snippet from Hermetic and Platonic texts, respectively, as well, which are available in full elsewhere).

    But yeah, the Sethian texts where a big find there. In the collection are also several Valentinian texts as well (from Valentinian Gnosticism.... which is one of my favorites).

    Yeah, it is curious. Gnosticism itself sort of made a resurgence in spiritual and academic interests in the 20th century, so the Nag Hammadi library findings was historically significant. (although several texts existed in forms prior to the find though).
     
  19. Shad

    Shad Veteran Member

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    Those example fit fine. Polytheism fit fine. You just didn't accept it. Not my problem you think Mormonism is Christian with all it's gods and Kobob. It isn't.
     
  20. Father Heathen

    Father Heathen Veteran Member

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    Uh, noooope... :facepalm:

    You claimed that past forms of christianity ceased to be christianity because they conflict with current forms of christianity, so I asked if *current* christianity would cease to be considered christianity in the future if christianity changes radically between now and then. Yes, Islam branched from Christianity, but it's not called christianity, so obviously that does not serve as an example.
     
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