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Featured Monotheists: How do you know that your god is the most powerful being?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Hubert Farnsworth, May 17, 2019.

  1. Terry Sampson

    Terry Sampson ζει

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    Trivia regarding Nietzche:
    • [from wikipedia] "On 3 January 1889, Nietzsche suffered a mental breakdown.[76] Two policemen approached him after he caused a public disturbance in the streets of Turin. What happened remains unknown, but an often-repeated tale from shortly after his death states that Nietzsche witnessed the flogging of a horse at the other end of the Piazza Carlo Alberto, ran to the horse, threw his arms up around its neck to protect it, and then collapsed to the ground." ... "In the following few days, Nietzsche sent short writings—known as the Wahnzettel ("Madness Letters")—to a number of friends including Cosima Wagner and Jacob Burckhardt. Most of them were signed "Dionysos", though some were also signed "der Gekreuzigte" meaning "the crucified one". To his former colleague Burckhardt, Nietzsche wrote: "I have had Caiaphas put in fetters. Also, last year I was crucified by the German doctors in a very drawn-out manner. Wilhelm, Bismarck, and all anti-Semites abolished."[79] Additionally, he commanded the German emperor to go to Rome to be shot and summoned the European powers to take military action against Germany,[80] that the pope should be put in jail and that he, Nietzsche, created the world and was in the process of having all anti-Semites shot dead."
    • Gee, ... he seems like a worthy fellow to admire.
    Regarding the opinion that God is basically indistinguishable from the imaginary, I say:
    • Neat, huh?
    • Admittedly, I'm very biased, of course. The five or so people who have loved me best, loved me far, far more than I deserved. Of them, my wife is the only one still alive. No blood shared with any of them. The dead were devout Christians.
    • My biological parents were married, ... but not to each other. Unable to satisfy my infant needs, my bio-mom took me to bio-father's house when I was 3 months old, said: "I can't take care of him; you take him"; and walked out. That was the first time my stepmother and I met, ... the day that she discovered that my bio-father had been unfaithful. She was 61 years old. She took me in and raised me until just before my 12th birthday. [My parents and step-parents were Deaf.]
    • Around my 11th birthday, Oklahoma State Department of Social Services took an interest in me and discussion of the fitness of an elderly deaf woman to be a young, hearing boy's guardian ensued. As time went on, the State authorities decided that for my good, I should be removed from the home and placed with a foster family consisting of hearing people who could support my development in spoken English. My stepmother, fearing that I would be placed in a non-Christian home, went to her pastor and told him that she wanted him to take me.
    • The preacher was married and had five biological kids (three sons and two daughters), ranging from 5 to 12.
    • In May of 1960, three months before my 12th birthday, by mutual agreement between me, my stepmother, and the preacher's family, I joined them and moved with them one month later to a podunk town in Nevada.
    All children should have as wonderful a childhood and youth as I had. The others who loved me were as merciful.

    So, is God imaginary? Could be, but you sure aren't going to get me to complain. I suspect that if the most important people in my life had been non-believers, I'd be a non-believer too. What do think the odds were of that happening?
     
    #21 Terry Sampson, May 17, 2019
    Last edited: May 17, 2019
  2. Hubert Farnsworth

    Hubert Farnsworth Well-Known Member

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    I appreciate your responses.

    Regarding Nietzsche, his mental breakdown is irrelevant to the value of his work. There are a lot of geniuses who have made great contributions to society who also had mental illnesses. And granted, there is plenty that he wrote that I disagree with, but his writings are filled with gold nuggets if you look hard enough for them. And in fact, a large proportion of what he wrote about had nothing to do with religion, but was interesting observations regarding life, history, art, literature, politics, human interactions and friendships, and the human psyche, among other things.

    And I'm not here to try to disprove your Christian beliefs. I am simply pointing out that they are unprovable. But it seems like you already recognize that. In fact, you seem like a pretty reasonable guy.
     
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  3. MJFlores

    MJFlores Well-Known Member

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    With more than 30,0000 Christian denominations
    With its members believing that they are right and the others are wrong
    With its members believing that God is with them and not with the others
    What is the odds of being right?
    3.333333333333333e-5% appears in my calculator

    To others it is a game of chance.
    upload_2019-5-18_11-25-45.jpeg
    According to them, it is better to bet on a number than not to bet at all.

    For me - the key is the truth rather some aimlessly placing a bet
    derived from an educated guess or a gut feeling or a simple hunch.
    The truth is being sure about everything
    And after knowing the truth comes faith - that firm conviction about the truth

    So what is the truth about God?

    FOR MANY OF those who do not believe in God and ask this question if God exist, they insist that this question be answered according to their own standard which means you have to show them only “evidences” they wanted to see and dismiss otherwise. Because they already set their mind to accept only evidences they wanted to see, they insist to show to them only those they want, and will easily dismiss otherwise.


    “SHOW ME YOUR GOD”

    “Show me your God?” This what many of those who don’t believe in God wanted in order for them to believe that God truly exists. However, the Bible explicitly tells us that God is spirit:

    “God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.” (John 4:24 NKJV)

    Because God is spirit, we cannot see Him or God is invisible:

    “Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, to God who alone is wise, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.” (I Timothy 1:17 NKJV)

    It is a fact that not because we cannot see it, it means it does not exist. Like air, atom, electricity and many else, these are not visible, but it does not mean that they do not exist. “Life” itself cannot be seen, heard or touched, but there are proofs or evidences that “life” truly exists.

    It is ridiculous that a person insists to show him “life” itself or else he will not believe it exists. A living thing grows, moves and many else that proves that it has life. What do you of a person that after you show him other evidences that life truly exists but immediately dismiss these evidences and still insists to show him life itself or else he will not believe that it exists?

    Thus, we must not insist to “show God” for He is an invisible spirit. However, although we cannot see God Himself, but it does not mean that He does not exists.


    “PHYSICAL EVIDENCE PLEASE”

    Others demand for “physical” or “material” evidence. However, because God is spirit, He is not only invisible, but He has no flesh and bones:

    “And He said to them, "Why are you troubled? And why do doubts arise in your hearts? Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have.” (Luke 24:38-39 NKJV)

    If we cannot show you any physical or material evidence to prove that God exists, you will easily conclude that God does not exist? Then, you must also dismiss the “Big Bang theory” because there are no physical or material evidence to prove that it really occurred. Others might point to the elements in the universe, the stars, the planets and others as material evidences for the Big Bang theory. However, existence of the elements, suns and others does not follow that these were created through the “Big Bang.” No direct evidence that one can show that these are created through the Big Bang. Also take note, “missing link” in the so-called “evolution of man” means lack of material of physical evidences.

    My point is, why insisting for physical or material evidences or else you will not believe that God exists? Lacking or having no material or physical evidences is not sufficient to conclude that God does not exist because there are other evidences that can prove that God truly exists, unless you are ridiculous enough having already set your mind to accept only those evidences you want to see and dismiss otherwise.


    “SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE”?

    Proving through experimentation? However, how can we experiment God? Because of this, can we conclude that God does not exist? If so, why hang on “evolution”? Evolution cannot also be proven through experimentation.

    Concerning God, the Book of Job rhetorically asks, thus:

    “Can you search out the deep things of God? Can you find out the limits of the Almighty? They are higher than heaven-what can you do? Deeper than Sheol-what can you know? Their measure is longer than the earth And broader than the sea.” (Job 11:7-9 NKJV)

    New Living Translation renders the following verse as follows:

    “Can you solve the mysteries of God? Can you discover everything about the Almighty? Such knowledge is higher than the heavens—and who are you? It is deeper than the underworld—what do you know? It is broader than the earth and wider than the sea.” (Job 11:7-9 NLT)


    EVERYTHING WILL ONLY END
    UP IN NON SEQUITUR


    Many attempt to show evidences according to man’s standard to prove the existence of God, like the “designer and design” theory and other “scientific evidences,” but this only end up in “non sequitur” (it doesn’t follows).

    However, the same is also with the other side. Not because there is a Big Bang it follows that there is no God. Not because there is evolution it follows that there is no God. Not because you can explain everything through science it follows that there is no God.

    Everything will only end up in Non Sequitur, in an endless debate.

    Thus, let us not attempt to prove the existence of God through man’s standard. Skeptics must open their mind and stop insisting to show to them evidences of the existence of God which they prefer and dismiss otherwise.

    Please carefully examine the following evidences with an open mind.


    THE STRONGEST EVIDENCE
    THAT GOD REALLY EXISTS


    The strongest evidence that God truly exists is the words of God written in the Bible. We are certain that Aristotle, Plato, Socrates and many more existed because their work survived.

    Proving that the Bible is indeed the words of God proves that God really exists. There is no word of God if there is no God. If the Bible is the word of God, thus there is God who spoken those words. Why are we certain that the Bible is indeed the words of God?


    HOW TRUE THE BIBLE IS
    THE WORD OF GOD?



    WHAT GOD WAS, THE WORD WAS

    God is unique in that He is almighty (Gen. 17:1). He has unlimited power. His will always comes to pass since nothing could ever prevent its fulfillment. God’s words possess the same quality:

    “For no word from God shall be void of power.” (Luke 1:37, ASV)

    Every word from the Almighty God has power. Like God Himself, His words are of unlimited power. How is God’s power manifested in His words?

    “Bring in your idols to tell us what is going to happen. Tell us what the former things were, so that we may consider them and know their final outcome. Or declare to us the things to come, tell us what the future holds, so we may know that you are gods. Do something, whether good or bad, so that we will be dismayed and filled with fear.” (Is. 41:22-23, NIV)

    God is able to declare what the future holds. He can tell us the things to come long before they happen. False gods, such as idols and graven images, cannot do or say anything, let alone declare the future. And it is this power of God, which can be seen when what He says come to pass, that proves that He alone is the true God. God is able to “make known the end from the beginning” – or declare what will ultimately and certainly come to pass – because He himself, with His infinite power, brings His words to fulfillment (Is. 46:9-10). This characteristic of God and of His words distinguishes Him from man. Man by Himself cannot “declare the things to come” since he cannot foretell even the day of his own death (Js. 4:14).

    Therefore, God’s power and the power of His words are found in no other. This power of the divine word, “declaring the things to come,” cannot be found in any “human text.”

    Is the Bible truly God’s word? Did the writers of the biblical books truly write through God’s inspiration? How true that what they wrote are indeed God’s words? Only the scripture that have the power of the divine word or the attributes of the word of God can rightfully claim to be the Sacred Scripture where the words of God are indeed written.
     
  4. Willamena

    Willamena Just me
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    The monotheistic god is the ultimate god because it's the only god. The prefix "mono-" means "only."

    It also means that everything is god. It's just that "only."

    Your thought is far-fetched because it defies the English language.
     
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  5. dianaiad

    dianaiad Well-Known Member

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    It might not 'necessarily exist.' I believe that it does.

    ...and if it does, it is scripture that answers it.

    You have, however, certainly confirmed my point regarding the way science doesn't address it, and the way that those who depend entirely upon one method of 'learning stuff' without looking at the other, whether that is 'science' or 'scripture/religion,' are missing half of the point.

    I believe that God has given us two texts to use to understand Him and His creation; one He has given us through His prophets, with instructions on how we should deal with one another, and the 'why' He did the whole thing. The other is written more directly, in the earth and the stars. I believe that we are supposed to pay attention to both; to scripture for the 'why,' and to learn from His creations, so that we can sit back and say ...so THAT's how He did it, and THAT'S how that works!

    Those who stick to one method to the exclusion of the other are losing out on half the wonder of His creation.

    And that's sad.
     
  6. Augustus

    Augustus the Unreasonable

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    All belief systems/ideologies/worldviews ultimately rest on a foundation of axiomatic beliefs. Only from these can we reason further.
     
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  7. Gandalf

    Gandalf He Who Toots His Horn

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    Firstly as a monotheist I have no text to adhere to but most importantly I do not think that one can even posit what all powerful means when it is an abstracted concept with no clear meaning.
    Even Christian and Islamic theologians have went as far as to posit that all powerful means morally perfect.

    Then the question is what is morally good and how can we know it is morally good if its a quality of all powerful which is already incomprehensible.

    Ludicrous I tell you, just ludicrous
     
  8. PureX

    PureX Veteran Member

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    Being a theist does not require me to "know" anything. It's simply something I choose to believe because I find that doing so increases the value of my life experience. And in fact, it's because I DON'T KNOW that I have that option available to me.
     
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  9. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon Veteran Member
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    By the standards you describe at the beginning of this post you are making your assertion of Truth'according to your own standard' that you believe on no firmer grounds than anyone else. By this very fallible human standard you also too easily dismiss others who believe differently.

    Very anecdotal circular argument. Simply you believe the above is true therefore what you believe is true.

    This is no different from any other believer in a different church nor any other religion citing their own scripture as evidence to justify their own belief as the truth. A very fallible human circular argument.

    . . . go ahead belly up to the crap table and roll the dice and make your choice based on your own argument in the beginning of this post.
     
    #29 shunyadragon, May 18, 2019
    Last edited: May 18, 2019
  10. Etritonakin

    Etritonakin Well-Known Member

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    It seems most logical to me that the sum of everything which has always existed (eternal) became (completely) self-aware and creative -from the most simple possible state on -before things such as the universe and all therein could be possible.
    Such a position would allow for omnipresence, omniscience, omnipotence, etc.

    Therefore, "the most high God" is an absolute necessity -and such would need to immediately be "perfect" in order to move forward (not initially having the buffers we do which allow us to learn while postponing extreme calamity)

    Not knowing God from Adam (pun intended) is actually the all-important underlying theme of the entire bible. Phrases such as "That they may know", "That I may know", "That you may know", etc., are all over the scriptures.

    God purposed a mostly-managed set of experiences for individuals -and all generations overall -which will cause them to know him -whereas they were once completely new and ignorant.

    History has been both wonderous and horrifying -but it was allowed so that we might be brought from zygotes to gods in 120 years or so.

    "I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:

    6That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.

    7I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

    8Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness: let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together; I the LORD have created it."
     
    #30 Etritonakin, May 18, 2019
    Last edited: May 18, 2019
  11. Epic Beard Man

    Epic Beard Man Bearded Philosopher

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    Thank you for that explanation...

    Like any belief in a metaphysical deity to pose the question of how or why or what necessitates belief in God or what necessitates God itself, requires the person answering to understand the context but to know that any answer finds its foundation in faith. what we "know" in this context is based on things that are relatable to us in the world and what we are familiar with in our respective scriptures. Like proof of God, I find the questioned posed similar in notion and I cannot give you a definitive answer on the subject as my answer would only amount to my personal faith.
     
  12. LuisDantas

    LuisDantas Aura of atheification
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    I have to agree with @Quintessence here in that the very idea that a true only God would have to fit such expectations is very arbitrary indeed, and utterly unnecessary.

    I suppose that some people may feel otherwise, but I can't in good faith call that a necessary component of any doctrinbe. It is just an arbitrary oddity.
     
  13. Gerry

    Gerry Well-Known Member

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    Indeed
     
  14. Samantha Rinne

    Samantha Rinne Active Member

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    The Muslim god is not God. Sorry.

    Inside the Ka'aba which Muslims bend over towards no matter where they are, there is a Black Stone.

    Exodus 20 makes it clear that both this massive block, and the stone inside are idols.

    I am saying this not to bash Islam, but to clarify that the idea of bowing down to such an object is proof that these are in fact different religions, so anyone who blames Islam for Christian failings or vice versa is off-base.

    Now to answer your question. I don't see this as following a Semitic deity. Whichever deity is at the top of the food chain is the one I care about. The one who is Creator of the universe. So whether you think that God is a puppet of the real one or whatever, that lesser god is moot, cuz whatever God is running things is God. Anything created by human hands is an idol.
     
    #34 Samantha Rinne, May 18, 2019
    Last edited: May 18, 2019
  15. Jos

    Jos Active Member

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    Doesn't everything ultimately require a leap of faith? Doesn't science for example require some faith given that humans are fallible and can wrongly interpret data and given that new information can overturn certain theories and even also because humans make mistakes while doing experiments and testing out things? And as far as I can tell, religion was never about proving anything but everything is ultimately based on faith so I don't think you'll find many religionists who try to prove that their religion is true. Religion is about faith, not proof.
     
  16. Jos

    Jos Active Member

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    How does it work in religion too?
     
  17. Jos

    Jos Active Member

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    What do you mean by saying that monotheism is ontological?
     
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  18. Jos

    Jos Active Member

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    What is Nietzsche saying here? I don't understand it.
     
  19. Jos

    Jos Active Member

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    Why would you need faith if you have knowledge? Or is faith just confidence and assurance in the knowledge? Interestingly enough, religion seems to have it the other way around, in that you need to have faith, in order to know the truth.
     
  20. Jos

    Jos Active Member

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    I thought religion was about having faith that God exists and not trying to prove anything? Aren't you supposed to have faith since God's existence can't be proven?
     
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