Moksha in Dvaita?

[Martin]

What is the Dvaita view of moksha? Does Atman merge with Brahman?

 

[The Crimson Universe]

There are many schools in dvaita. The one that i'm familiar with is Vaishnavism. Here there are many innumerable Atmans. Each are unique and different in its qualities. After moksha they spend time with Vishnu or Krishna in His heavenly abode but after spending some time there, the atmans again fall down to the earthly planes to live as mortal beings.
I'm not sure how moksha is like in other dvaita schools like Shaivism, Shaktism, Samkhya or Yoga.

 

[Aupmanyav]

What is the Dvaita view of moksha? Does Atman merge with Brahman?

Here: Moksha - Wikipedia (Forget about Dada Bhagwan, that is a cult).

Madhvacharya (Dvaita): According to Madhvacharya, even in liberation (moksha), the bliss is different for each person based on each's degree of knowledge and spiritual perfection. This liberation according to him, is only achievable with grace of God Vishnu. - Madhvacharya - Wikipedia

Other than Madhvacharya, the philosophies in Hinduism are a mix of Dvaita and Advaita. For example, Ramanuja's Vishishta Advaita, Vallabha's Purna Advaita, Nimbarka's Dvaita-Advaita and Chaitanya's Acintya Bheda-Abheda Advaita.

Dvaita Moksha does not really desire a merging with the Lord. It wants to remain in proximity and in service of the Lord. They sure want a release from the cycle of birth and death.

In Shaivism, it is complete merger.
(These are my views. Take them with a pinch of salt. Wait for other people to propound their views)

 

[The Crimson Universe]

In Shaivism, it is complete merger

So after liberation we will merge with Shiva? Does this mean we will become all-powerful and all-knowing just like Shiva?

 

[Aupmanyav]

Does this mean we will become all-powerful and all-knowing just like Shiva?

When you have merged, there is no "you" left.

 

[The Crimson Universe]

When you have merged, there is no "you" left.

Is Shiva here the personal God with a human form or is he formless and infinite like Brahman?

 

[Valjean]

So after liberation we will merge with Shiva? Does this mean we will become all-powerful and all-knowing just like Shiva?

Depends on your idea of "liberation." There are many dualistic schools with varying views, but none I know of teach the complete merger we non-dual Vedantists believe.
As I see it, Liberation is liberation from the illusion of duality.
As usual, Aup and I are in agreement. If you still perceive a separate or individual self; a jiv-atman, you're not fully awakened from the illusion.

 

[Valjean]

Is Shiva here the personal God with a human form or is he formless and infinite like Brahman?

At what level of consciousness? Reality is structured in consciousness.

For some, gods are actual, discrete, albeit subjective beings. For others, symbolic foci for worship or meditation, to be transcended upon liberation.

Shiva is The Destroyer -- of illusion; ultimately of the illusion of his own Reality.

 

[Martin]

Depends on your idea of "liberation." There are many dualistic schools with varying views, but none I know of teach the complete merger we non-dual Vedantists believe.
As I see it, Liberation is liberation from the illusion of duality.
As usual, Aup and I are in agreement. If you still perceive a separate or individual self; a jiv-atman, you're not fully awakened from the illusion.

I thought that with the Advaita view, no merging is necessary, since Atman and Brahman have always been identical?
Whereas, to put it simply, the Dvaita view is of jivas being separate from Brahman?

 

[Martin]

There are many schools in dvaita. The one that i'm familiar with is Vaishnavism. Here there are many innumerable Atmans. Each are unique and different in its qualities. After moksha they spend time with Vishnu or Krishna in His heavenly abode but after spending some time there, the atmans again fall down to the earthly planes to live as mortal beings.
I'm not sure how moksha is like in other dvaita schools like Shaivism, Shaktism, Samkhya or Yoga.

So with Vaishnavism, is moksha a living experience? Or is it that Atmans "go to" Vishnu after death?

 

[Valjean]

I thought that with the Advaita view, no merging is necessary, since Atman and Brahman have always been identical?
Whereas the Dvaita view is of Atmans being separate from Brahman?

Pretty much. The dualists believe in duality at all levels. The non-dualists believe in complete merger at the highest level; the level where Moksha/Liberation is realized.

The merger is a realization, not an actual event. Its a realization that they've always been identical, and that your previous perception of separateness was an illusion/dream.


Remember, reality is structured in consciousness. Atman and Brahman are identical in 7th-state. In our present 3rd-state, though, they are not. The illusion of duality is complete.

At lower levels of perception, in this material reality, we're all de facto dualists; all dreaming.

 

[Valjean]

So with Vaishnavism, is moksha a living experience? Or is it that Atmans "go to" Vishnu after death?

Subjectively or objectively? Ontological opinions vary. Subjective realities vary. Devotees of Vishnu don't all hold the same opinion.

 

[Aupmanyav]

So with Vaishnavism, is moksha a living experience? Or is it that Atmans "go to" Vishnu after death?

It can be a living experience for those who have realized it completely. They are termed as 'Jeevanmukta', who have transcended the boundaries of death and re-birth. For example, I am a 'Jeevanmukta' of the Advaita kind, beyond the cycle of death and re-birth, because I have attained realization. In the same way, a Vaishnava can also be 'Jeevanmukta' in hisher life-time. A Vaishnava will go to Vishnu or one of his avataras, Rama, Krishna, etc. For a stauch Advaitist this does not matter, since after realization, he is Brahman in his life-time as well as after death.

 

[ajay0]

These days, there are many who claim that they are enlightened or Self-realized without having the necessary attributes. Most do it out of delusion and poor understanding as well as desire to impress gullible people, and diffuse their ignorance to others perpetuating it.

The enlightened master Kabir had emphasized the need for critical examination to distinguish between the sages and the pseudo-sages.

Kabir on the need for critical examination to weed out the false and fraudulent...

I'm not sure how moksha is like in other dvaita schools like Shaivism, Shaktism, Samkhya or Yoga.

Moksha comes with the elimination of vasanas or karmic impressions . Love is a potent way to eliminate karmic impressions and dvaita enables such deep love of the lover for the beloved. Duality thus becomes a path for deep love for the other, and bhakti yoga.

 

[The Crimson Universe]

So with Vaishnavism, is moksha a living experience? Or is it that Atmans "go to" Vishnu after death?

When i spoke of vaishnavism, i was speaking of the Hare Krishnas (the iskcon people).

Their philosophy is called achintya bheda abheda (inconceivable difference and non-difference). If you're interested in their philosophy i can give a brief explanation here. Let me know. :=)

If i'm not wrong, moksha according to this school can only be attained after death (after one has lived all his/her life in complete love, service and devotion to vishnu/krishna). When such a pious person dies his atman (which is atomic in size as per these people) is transported to Vishnu's or Krishna's heavenly abode. There the person lives in proximity to Vishnu or Krishna as a separate being or atman. Even there the person serves Vishnu/Krishna as a servant or disciple.

 

[The Crimson Universe]

There are other vaishnava dvaita schools like that of Ramanuja (Vishist-advaita), Vallabha (shuddh-advaita) etc. They too believe in separate individual atmans, which are innumerable. I haven't read much about these schools so i cannot comment whether they merge with Vishnu or not after moksha.

 

[Martin]

Are there schools where Atman (jiva?) has to change in order to merge with Brahman, or to attain moksha? Or is it more like getting rid of vasanas, removing obstacles to moksha?
I'm still not clear about the differences between jiva, jivatman and Atman in the various schools.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Are there schools where Atman (jiva?) has to change in order to merge with Brahman, or to attain moksha? Or is it more like getting rid of vasanas, removing obstacles to moksha?
I'm still not clear about the differences between jiva, jivatman and Atman in the various schools.

Realization itself IS a change, of whatever kind, Jnana, Bhakti or Karma, which will involve controlling vasanas (Yama), otherwise one will always be embroiled in worldly things alone.
Jiva is a being, Jivatman is supposed to be its essence (being an advaitist, I do not accept the idea). Atman means self. Dualists or psedo-advaitists (that for me will be Ramanuja, Vallabha, Nimbarka and Chaitanya), make a difference between the body, Jivatman and The Reality. For me, it is the whole of what I am, which is Brahman.

 

[The Crimson Universe]

Are there schools where Atman (jiva?) has to change in order to merge with Brahman, or to attain moksha? Or is it more like getting rid of vasanas, removing obstacles to moksha?
I'm still not clear about the differences between jiva, jivatman and Atman in the various schools.

I'll be explaining mostly Shankara's Advaita view here. But will also explain the dualist view at the end of this post.

In Shankara's Advaita, Brahman AKA Atman doesn't change. Its immutable. Changes takes place only in the sheaths and in the universe, not in Brahman AKA Atman.

Like outer space, Brahman aka Atman is the infinite omnipresent background which undergoes no change or movement. The stars, planets, clouds and our sheaths on the other hand undergoes change and movement.

In Advaita moksha, only the impurities like envy, greed, lust, desires etc. needs to be dropped. These impurities don't dwell in Brahman/Atman but in its manifestations like the mind. The mind is nothing but subtle sheaths.

=============

We have 5 bodies / sheaths / koshas.

1) Annamaya kosha - its the outermost physical body, that develops when it is nourished by food.

2) Pranomaya kosha - body made up of vital air or prana. Its subtle in nature.

3) Manomaya kosha - body made up of lower mind, whose job is to register information from the outside world. Its the doubtful faculty of mind. It always remains in uncertainty. It does indeterminate thinking. Its subtle in nature.

4) Vijnanamaya kosha - its the body made up of intellect or higher mind which discriminates and judges things after registering from the outside world. This is the seat of the ego. Its subtle in nature.

5) Anandamaya kosha - its the innermost body and subtle in nature. It is the subconscious mind which stores memories, habits, results of karma and unfullfilled desires of past lives in seed form.
It is also known as the bliss body or causal body.

==============

Body 1 encapsulates body 2 ... then body 2 encapsulates body 3 and so on.

Finally its 5th body (anandamaya kosha) that encapsulates the infinite all-pervasive brahman AKA atman.

The four inner bodies minus the physical one, makes up the entity called jiva.

Its the jiva (also known as jivatman) that transmigrates as per Shankara's Advaita

Since Brahman aka Atman (universal spirit or consciousness) is present everywhere like outer space, it doesn't move / travel / transmigrate.

This is the belief of the Advaitins.

=================

But according to the dualists like Vaishnavas (followers of Vishnu) all four inner bodies along with the eternal atman transmigrates.

To the vaishnavas, atman is NOT infinite.
Its atomic and finite.

The vaishnavas call
{{atman + the 4 inner bodies}} as jivatman which transmigrates.

I hold onto the Advaita view that atman is infinite and omnipresent and doesn't transmigrate.

I don't know what makes the dualist think that there are many innumerable finite atmans.
I mean, Sri Krishna himself said in Gita chapter 2 verse 24, that Atman is omnipresent, infinite and immovable (non-transmigratable). He even said that it cannot be cut into pieces.

My point is, if brahman/atman cannot be cut into separate finite parts as Krishna said, then how can there be many atmans. The dualist view of many atmans is wrong in my opinion.

 

[Martin]

I'll be explaining mostly Shankara's Advaita view here. But will also explain the dualist view at the end of this post.

In Shankara's Advaita, Brahman AKA Atman doesn't change. Its immutable. Changes takes place only in the sheaths and in the universe, not in Brahman AKA Atman.

Like outer space, Brahman aka Atman is the infinite omnipresent background which undergoes no change or movement. The stars, planets, clouds and our sheaths on the other hand undergoes change and movement.

In Advaita moksha, only the impurities like envy, greed, lust, desires etc. needs to be dropped. These impurities don't dwell in Brahman/Atman but in its manifestations like the mind. The mind is nothing but subtle sheaths.

=============

We have 5 bodies / sheaths / koshas.

1) Annamaya kosha - its the outermost physical body, that develops when it is nourished by food.

2) Pranomaya kosha - body made up of vital air or prana. Its subtle in nature.

3) Manomaya kosha - body made up of lower mind, whose job is to register information from the outside world. Its the doubtful faculty of mind. It always remains in uncertainty. It does indeterminate thinking. Its subtle in nature.

4) Vijnanamaya kosha - its the body made up of intellect or higher mind which discriminates and judges things after registering from the outside world. This is the seat of the ego. Its subtle in nature.

5) Anandamaya kosha - its the innermost body and subtle in nature. It is the subconscious mind which stores memories, habits, results of karma and unfullfilled desires of past lives in seed form.
It is also known as the bliss body or causal body.

==============

Body 1 encapsulates body 2 ... then body 2 encapsulates body 3 and so on.

Finally its 5th body (anandamaya kosha) that encapsulates the infinite all-pervasive brahman AKA atman.

The four inner bodies minus the physical one, makes up the entity called jiva.

Its the jiva (also known as jivatman) that transmigrates as per Shankara's Advaita

Since Brahman aka Atman (universal spirit or consciousness) is present everywhere like outer space, it doesn't move / travel / transmigrate.

This is the belief of the Advaitins.

=================

But according to the dualists like Vaishnavas (followers of Vishnu) all four inner bodies along with the eternal atman transmigrates.

To the vaishnavas, atman is NOT infinite.
Its atomic and finite.

The vaishnavas call
{{atman + the 4 inner bodies}} as jivatman which transmigrates.

I hold onto the Advaita view that atman is infinite and omnipresent and doesn't transmigrate.

I don't know what makes the dualist think that there are many innumerable finite atmans.
I mean, Sri Krishna himself said in Gita chapter 2 verse 24, that Atman is omnipresent, infinite and immovable (non-transmigratable). He even said that it cannot be cut into pieces.

My point is, if brahman/atman cannot be cut into separate finite parts as Krishna said, then how can there be many atmans. The dualist view of many atmans is wrong in my opinion.

Thanks, I'm familiar with the sheaths (koshas), but haven't been clear how they are viewed in the different schools, and their relationship with Atman.
So, at the risk of oversimplifying:
In Advaita, it's only the 4 inner sheaths (koshas) which are involved in transmigration, with Atman unchanging.
In Dvaita, it's Atman plus inner sheaths which transmigrate, and Atman changes too?