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Mohamed (PBUH) in the bible !!!

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by TashaN, Sep 5, 2005.

  1. TashaN

    TashaN Veteran Member
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    "I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren,
    like unto thee,
    and I will put my words in his mouth;
    and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him." Deuteronomy 18:18

    many Christians would say this is God is telling Moses that he will send Jesus and also Muslims will say he is Mohamed but how we can know which one of them is this prophet.

    first of all, the one mentioned in this verse supposed to fulfill 4 criterias according to the verse:

    1- God will raise this prophet from thier brethren (the Jews).
    2- Like unto Moses ( like Moses ).
    3- God will put his words in his mouth.
    4- this prophet shall speak unto them all that God shall command him.

    let's comprae these 4 criteriasto see who is the one mentioned in this verse.


    (( Part I ))

    let's start with number 2: like unto thee,

    Of course, We know that Jesus is like Moses a jew and he was a prophet too (any other similaraties ? ).

    So, in that case the criteria could fit any one of the following Biblical personages after Moses:- Solomon, Isaiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, Hosea, Joel, Malachi, John the Baptist etc., because they were also ALL "Jews" as well as "Prophets".

    but what about Jesus?

    "In the FIRST place Jesus is not like Moses, because, according to Christianity - 'JESUS IS A GOD', but Moses is not God.
    Therefore, Jesus is not like Moses!

    "SECONDLY, according to Christianity 'JESUS DIED FOR THE SINS OF THE WORLD', but Moses did not have to die for the sins of the world.
    "Therefore Jesus is not like Moses!"

    "THIRDLY, according to Christianity 'JESUS WENT TO HELL FOR THREE DAYS', but Moses did not have to go there.
    "Therefore Jesus is not like Moses!"

    OK, we have to go forther through thier born, life and death (we have to include Mohamed now so we can easily compare betwen them in details).

    (1) "Moses had a father and a mother. Muhummed also had a father and a mother. But Jesus had only a mother, and no human father. "Therefore Jesus is not like Moses, but Muhummed is like Moses!"

    (2) "Moses and Muhummed were born in the normal, natural course, i.e. the physical association of man and woman; but Jesus was created by a special miracle. You will recall that we are told in the Gospel of St. Matthew 1:18 ".....BEFORE THEY CAME TOGETHER,(Joseph the Carpenter and Mary) SHE WAS FOUND WITH CHILD BY THE HOLY GHOST." And St.Luke tells us that when the good news of the birth of a holy son was announced to her, Mary reasoned: "...HOW SHALL THIS BE, SEEING I KNOW NOT A MAN? AND THE ANGEL ANSWERED AND SAID UNTO HER, THE HOLY GHOST SHALL COME UPON THEE, AND THE POWER OF THE HIGHEST SHALL OVERSHADOW THEE..." (Luke 1:35).
    The Holy Qur'an confirms the miraculous birth of Jesus, in nobler and sublimer terms. In answer to her logical question:
    " O MY LORD! HOW SHALL I HAVE A SON WHEN NO MAN HATH TOUCHED ME? "
    The angel says in reply:
    "EVEN SO: ALLAH CREATETH WHAT HE WILLETH:
    WHEN HE HATH DECREED A PLAN,
    HE BUT SAITH TO IT "BE,"
    AND IT IS "
    (HOLY QUR'AN, 3:47).

    (3) "Moses and Muhummed married and begat children, but Jesus remained a bachelor all his life. "Therefore Jesus is not like Moses, but Muhummed is like Moses."

    (4) "Moses and Muhummed were accepted as prophets by their people in their very lifetime. No doubt the Jews gave endless trouble to Moses and they murmured in the wilderness, but as a nation, they acknowledged that Moses was a Messenger of God sent to them. The Arabs too made Muhummed's life impossible. He suffered very badly at their hands. After 13 years of preaching in Mecca, he had to emigrate from the city of his birth. But before his demise, the Arab nation as a whole accepted him as the Messenger of Allah. But according to the Bible: 'He (Jesus) CAME UNTO HIS OWN, BUT HIS OWN RECEIVED HIM NOT.' (John 1:11). And even today, after two thousand years, his people- the Jews, as a whole, have rejected him.
    "THEREFORE JESUS IS NOT LIKE MOSES, BUT MUHUMMED IS LIKE MOSES."

    (5) "Moses and Muhummed were prophets as well as kings. A prophet means a man who receives Divine Revelation for the Guidance of Man and this Guidance he conveys to God's creatures as received without any addition or deletion. A king is a person who has the power of life and death over his people. It is immaterial whether the person wears a crown or not, or whether he was ever addressed as king or monarch: if the man has the prerogative of inflicting capital punishment - HE IS A KING. Moses possessed such a power. Do you remember the Israelite who was found picking up firewood on Sabbath Day, and Moses had him stoned to death? (Numbers- 15:13). There are other crimes also mentioned in the Bible for which capital punishment was inflicted on the Jews at the behest of Moses. Muhummed too, had the power of life and death over his people.

    but Jesus said: "MY KINGDOM IS NOT OF THIS WORLD': IF MY KINGDOM WERE OF THIS WORLD, THEN WOULD MY SERVANTS FIGHT, THAT I SHOULD NOT BE DELIVERED TO THE JEWS; BUT NOW IS MY KINGDOM NOT FROM HENCE"(John 18:36)

    This convinced Pilate (A Pagan) that though Jesus might not be in full possession of his mental faculty, he did not strike him as being a danger to his rule. Jesus claimed a spiritual Kingdom only; in other words he only claimed to be a Prophet. "Therefore Jesus is not like Moses but Muhummed is like Moses."

    (6) "Moses and Muhummed brought new laws and new regulations for their people. Moses not only gave the Ten Commandments to the Israelites, but a very comprehensive ceremonial law for the guidance of his people. Muhummed comes to a people steeped in barbarism and ignorance. They married their step-mothers; they buried their daughters alive; drunkenness, adultery, idolatry, and gambling were the order of the day. Gibbon describe the Arabs before Islam in his "Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire", THE HUMAN BRUTE, ALMOST WITHOUT SENSE, IS POORLY DISTINGUISHED FROM THE REST OF THE ANIMAL CREATION.' There was hardly anything to distinguish between the "man" and the "animal" of the time; they were animals in human form.
    "From this abject barbarism, Muhummed elevated them, in the words of Thomas Carlysle, "into torch-bearers of light and learning.' 'TO THE ARAB NATION IT WAS AS A BIRTH FROM DARKNESS INTO LIGHT. ARABIA FIRST BECAME ALIVE BY MEANS OF IT. A POOR SHEPHERD PEOPLE, ROAMING UNNOTICED IN ITS DESERTS SINCE THE CREATION OF THE WORLD. SEE, THE UNNOTICED BECOMES WORLD NOTABLE, THE SMALL HAS GROWN WORLD-GREAT. WITHIN ONE CENTURY AFTERWARDS ARABIA WAS AT GRANADA ON ONE HAND AND AT DELHI ON THE OTHER. GLANCING IN VALOUR AND SPLENDOUR, AND THE LIGHT OF GENIUS, ARABIA SHINES OVER A GREAT SECTION OF THE WORLD. ..." The fact is that Muhummed gave his people a Law and Order they never had before.

    As regards Jesus, when the Jews felt suspicious of him that he might be an impostor with designs to pervert their teachings, Jesus took pains to assure them that he had not come with a new religion - no new laws and no new regulations. I quote his own words: 'THINK NOT THAT I AM COME TO DESTROY THE LAW, OR THE PROPHETS: I AM NOT COME TO DESTROY, BUT TO FULFIL. FOR VERILY I SAY UNTO YOU, TILL HEAVEN AND EARTH PASS, ONE JOT OR ONE TITLE SHALL IN NO WISE PASS FROM THE LAW, TILL ALL BE FULFILLED.'(Mathew 5:17-18). In other words he had not come with any new laws or regulation he came only to fulfil the old law.
    "Therefore, Jesus is not like Moses but Muhummed is like Moses."


    (7) "Both Moses and Muhummed died natural deaths, but according to Christianity, Jesus was violently killed on the cross. "Therefore Jesus is not like Moses but Muhummed is like Moses."

    (8) "Moses and Muhummed both lie buried in earth, but according to Christianity Jesus in heaven. "Therefore Jesus is not like Moses but Muhummed is like Moses."

    So, we finished with the criteria number two and God willing with the others later on.

    (( TO BE CONTINUE ))




    Peace ... :)
     
  2. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    Deuteronomy 18:18 "I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him."

    This talks about This divine promise to Moses was eventually fulfilled in Christ (Acts 3:22,23). Christ was a greater prophet than Moses, is a greater priest than Aaron, and will be a greater king than David. He did indeed speak the words given Him by the Father. "As my Father hath taught me, I speak these things" (John 8:28). "For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, He gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak" (John 12:49).
     
  3. Ezzedean

    Ezzedean Active Member

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    Asalam Ou Alikum

    Michel, John(12::49) Is very good evidence for yor point, and I have no problem believing that in Deuteronomy (18:18) it is talking about Jesus (PBUH) and not Muhammed (PBUH), but for this to be true it would mean that Jesus was exactly what Islam says he is, which is a prophet. You would think if the Son of God was going to be on earth, or even better, God would be on earth at one point in time, it would have been told to us in the Old Testament.

    Now some believe that Deuteronomy(18:18) is talking about Jesus(PBUH) and some believe it is Muhammed(PBUH), we cant give a definite answer to this due to Muhammed and Jesus (PBUT) both being capable of fulfilling this prophecy. So, lets take a look at another verse in the New Testament.

    John 16:12-14
    I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
    Howbeit, when the Spirit of Truth,is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear. that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
    He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

    I truly believe that Jesus (PBUH) is talking about Muhammed (PBUH) here. To be honest with you, who else could it be? I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now; Muhammed (PBUH) came at a time when our minds were far more developed than they were at the time of Jesus(PBUH). The Quran has things in it that are being discovered that we couldnt understand hundreds of years ago.
    Howbeit, when he, The Spirit of Truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth, for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
    Muhammed(PBUH) spoke the truth in every way, he didnt speak of himself, but whatever he heard from the Angel Gabriel, he spoke it to the people, and he definately told us things that were to come. Muhammed(PBUH) was known as the truthful one amongst his people, even before he was given revelations (Spirit of Truth).
    He shall Glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shew it unto you. Muhammed did Glorify the name of Jesus. He recognized him as a great prophet and praised him, not only in the Quran but in Hadith aswell. He confirmed the words of Jesus, and spoke of his mother Mary in the highest regards, it is taught that Mary was best Women God ever created.

    Could this all be a coincidence? Yes, but do you truly believe it is?
    Salam
    Ezzedean Fadel
     
  4. Omer

    Omer Member

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    Hi everyone;

    I read the posts, still, i hesitated whether to contribute or not. I want to make something clear that I don't like discussions like "quran beats the bible" or "one prophet is higher than the other" etc. Becos I believe its not for me to judge these things, and for a sound discussion and exchange of information, we should accept each other on the same level, not inferior or in higher status.
    Having said all these, I want to say I found some good information while googling on the net, after reading your posts here. It is some piece of information on the topic from a book of a respected turkish scholar whose books I have read before. Hope this will throw more light on the subject.


    In the Thirty-Third Section of the Fifth Book of the Torah, there is the following verse:
    "The Lord came from Sinai, rose up unto us from Seir, and shined forth from Mount Paran."

    In this verse, with the phrase "the Lord came from Sinai," the prophethood of Moses is mentioned: with the phrase "rose up unto us from Seir" (Seir being a mountain near Damascus) the prophethood of Jesus is indicated. Finally the phrase

    "He shined forth from Mount Paran" (the Paran mountains being the mountains of Macca), gives tidings of the prophethood of Muhammad ,as all will agree in utter certainty.

    Moreover, confirmed by the sentence, [Q. 48:29] "This is their similitude in the Torah."
    is the following verse of the OT concerning the Companions of the Prophet who would shine forth from the Paran mountains: "The flags of the blessed ones will be with him and they will be on his right." In this verse the Companions of the Prophet are described as "the blessed ones," that is, his Companions are blessed, righteous men, the beloved ones of Allah.

    In the Forty-Second Chapter of the Book of the Prophet Isaiah, are the following verses:

    "See My servant, whom I uphold; My Chosen One, in whom I delight. He will reveal justice to the nations of the world.... He will encourage the fainthearted, those tempted to despair. He will see full justice given to all who have been wronged. He will not be satisfied until the truth and righteousness prevail throughout the earth, nor until even distant lands beyond the seas have put their trust in him." Here, the verses manifestly proclaim the description ot Muhammad (ASW) who is clearly the Prophet for the last age.

    In the Fourth Chapter of the Book of Micah, there are the following verses: "But in the last days it shall come to pass that the mountain of the house of Allah will be the most renowned one of all the mountains of the world, praised by all nations; people from all over the world will make pilgrimages there. "Come," they will say to one another, "let us go up to the mountain of Allah and the house of Allah." These verses obviously describe the most blessed mountain of the world, Mount Arafat, and the Umma of Muhammad that will flock there from all countries, invoke God's Name and offer prayers there.

    In the Seventy-Second Chapter of Psalms, there are the following verses: "And he will reign from sea to sea, and from the River to the ends of the earth. The kings of Yemen and the Islands all will bring their gifts. And to him all the kings will prostrate themselves. All the nations will serve him... And he will live, and in his behalf prayer will be made constantly. All day long he will be praised. His name will prove to be time indefinite. It will continue as long as the sun. All will be blessed in him. All nations will praise him." These verses clearly describe the Glory of the World, Prophet Muhammad . Since Prophet David , who other than Muhammad has come to propagate his religion from East to West, to subject lands to pay tax in his name, to make many rulers obedient in deep adoration for him, and to earn everyday the prayers and remembrance of one fifth of the humanity (i.e., the Muslim Peoples) ? Is there anyone else but he?

    Again, the Turkish translation of John's Gospel, Chapter Fourteen verse thirty, says; "I shall not speak with you for much longer, for the ruler of the world is coming, and I am nothing compared with him." Thus, the title Ruler of the World means Glory of the World. And the title of Glory of the World is one of the most famous of Muhammed the Arabian (upon whom be blessings and peace)'s titles.

    Again, in John 16:7, we read the following: "But I am telling you the truth. My departure is but for your benefit. For, unless I depart, the Comforter will not come." Now, who else other than Muhammad is to be the true Comforter for humanity? Certainly, he is the one who will save the transient humanity from eternal annihilation and thus comfort it, and he is the one whose coming to the earth has made the whole world proud and thankful.

    Again, in John 16:8 is this passage: "When he comes, he will give the world convincing evidence concerning its sin, concerning goodness and concerning judgment." Who else other than Muhammad has come to transform the world's mischief into goodness, save humanity from evil deeds and polytheism (also atheism), and revolutionize the politics and rule of the nations of the world?

    Again, from John 16:11: "There is deliverance from judgment, because the Prince of the World has already been judged." Here "the Prince of the World" is certainly Muhammad, for he is known as the master of humanity. He is, indeed, such a prince that for thirteen hundred years (now fourteen), he has had at least 350 million subjects (now one billion) in almost every century. And such subjects are those who follow him so earnestly that they obey his commands with the utmost submission and everyday renew their allegiance to him by calling down God's blessings on him.
    Again, from John 16:13: "But when he, the Spirit of Truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth, for he shall not speak of himself, whatsoever he shall hear that shall he speak, and he will tell you things to come." Now this verse is undoubtedly clear. Who is, or who could be, that person other than Muhammad, who invited the whole of humanity to the truth, whose every statement was based on revelation, who announced whatsoever he received from Gabriel , and who informed humanity in detail about Doomsday and the Hereafter?

    The books of other prophets include names that correspond in Syriac and Hebrew to the various names of the Prophet such as Muhammad, Ahmad and Mukhtar. For example, in the tablets of the Prophet Shu'ayb, his name is Mushaffaf and means "Muhammad." In the Torah of Moses, he is mentioned as Munhamanna, which again means "Muhammad," and as Himyata, which means "the Prophet of al-Haram." In the Psalms of David, he is named al-Mukhtar. Again in the Torah of Moses, the name is al-Hatam al-Khatam. Both in the Torah of Moses and in the Psalms of David , it is Muqim as-Sunna. In the Tablets of Abraham and in the Torah of Moses , he is mentioned as Mazmaz, and again in the Torah of Moses as Ahyad.
     
  5. TashaN

    TashaN Veteran Member
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    Hi all again, today i'll continue the proofs from the OT in ( part II ).



    "I WILL RAISE THEM UP A PROPHET FROM AMONG THEIR BRETHREN LIKE UNTO THEE......."
    If Ishmael and Isaac are the sons of the same father Abraham, then they are brothers. And so the children of the one are the BRETHREN of the children of the other. The children of Isaac are the Jews and the Children of Ishmael are the Arabs - so they are BRETHREN to one another. The Bible affirms, 'AND HE (ISHMAEL) SHALL DWELL IN THE PRESENCE OF ALL HIS BRETHREN.' (Genesis 16:12). 'AND HE (ISHMAEL) DIED IN THE PRESENCE OF ALL HIS BRETHREN.(Genesis 25:18). The children of Isaac are the brethren of the Ishmaelites. In like manner Muhummed is from among the brethren of the Israelites because he was a descendant of Ishmael the son of Abraham. This exactly as the prophecy has it- 'FROM AMONG THEIR BRETHREN'.(Deut.18:18). There the prophecy distinctly mentions that the coming prophet who would be like Moses, must arise NOT from the 'children of Israel' or from 'among themselves', but from among their brethren. MUHUMMED THEREFORE WAS FROM AMONG THEIR BRETHREN!

    "The prophecy proceeds further:'.......AND I WILL PUT MY WORDS INTO HIS MOUTH.......'
    History tells us that Muhummed was forty years of age. He was in a cave some three miles north of the City of Mecca. It was the 27th night of the Muslim month of Ramadaan. In the cave the Archangel Gabriel commands him in his mother tongue: 'IQRA' which means READ! or PROCLAIM! or RECITE! Muhummed is terrified and in his bewilderment replies " MA ANA BEQARA which means I AM NOT LEARNED! The angel commands him a second time with the same result. For the third time the angel continues until the end of verses.
    Muhummed's experience in the cave of Hira, later to be known as Jabal-un Noor - The Mountain of Light, and his response to that first Revelation is the exact fulfilment of another Biblical Prophecy. In the Book of Isaiah, Chapter 29, verse 12, we read: "AND THE BOOK" (al-Kitaab,al-Quran the 'Reading', the 'Recitation') "IS DELIVERED TO HIM THAT IS NOT LEARNED," (Isaiah 29:12) "THE UNLETTERED PROPHET " (Holy Qur'an 7:158) and the biblical verse continues : "SAYING, READ THIS, I PRAY THEE:" (the words "I pray thee", are not in the Hebrew manuscripts; compare with the Roman Catholics' "Douay Version and also with the "Revised Standard Versions") "AND HE SAITH,
    I AM NOT LEARNED." ("I am not learned." is the exact translation of the Arabic words
    MA ANA BEQARA which Muhummed uttered twice to the Holy Ghost - the Archangel Gabriel, when he was commanded : IQRAA "READ!").
    Let me quote the verse in full without a break as found in the "King James Version," or the "Authorised version" as it is more popularly known "AND THE BOOK IS DELIVERED TO HIM THAT IS NOT LEARNED, SAYING, READ THIS I PRAY THEE: AND HE SAITH, I AM NOT LEARNED." (Isaiah 29:12).

    Important note :
    It may be noted that there were no Arabic Bibles in existence in the 6th Century of the Christian Era when Muhummed lived and preached! Besides, he was absolutely unlettered and unlearned. No human had ever taught him a word. His teacher was his Creator:

    [3] Nor does he say (aught) of (his own) Desire.


    [4] It is no less than inspiration sent down to him:


    [5] He was taught by one Mighty in Power, Surah Najm "Holy Quran 53-3-5"


    "... and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him." Deuteronomy 18:18

    "AND IT SHALL COME TO PASS, " (it is going to happen) "THAT WHOSOEVER WILL NOT HEARKEN UNTO MY WORDS WHICH HE SHALL SPEAK IN MY NAME, I WILL REQUIRE IT OF HIM". Deuteronomy 19:18

    we have a further fulfilment of the prophecy in Muhummed! Note the words-'.....MY WORDS WHICH HE SHALL SPEAK IN MY NAME," In whose name is Muhummed speaking?"

    بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم
    and the meaning: ​

    "IN THE NAME OF GOD, MOST GRACIOUS, MOST MERCIFUL."

    Every chapter of the Holy Qur'an except the 9th begin with the formula:​
    "بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم" IN THE NAME OF GOD, MOST GRACIOUS, MOST MERCIFUL.' The Muslim begins his every lawful act with the Holy formula. But the Christian begins: "In the name of the Father, son and holy ghost.'"​

    ( "God" is not a name, and "Father" is also not a name )​

    now we are done about the OT
    (( To be continue ))​
     
  6. TashaN

    TashaN Veteran Member
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    Thanks for your post Michel.

    let's assume that Jesus is greater than Moses but the verse said: like unto thee which means excatly like him as i proved in my first post that prophet Mohamed is like Moses.


    God taught Jesus and Jesus spoke only as God gave him but did God put my words in his mouth as i explained in my second post of what happened to Mohamed (PBUH)?

    God taught Jesus but put words in Mohamed's mouth.


    Ezzedean thanks for your post.


    thanks for the post Omer and be sure that we are just studying specific issues without saying anything personal to anyone's belief but to discuss in general.



    Peace ... :)
     
  7. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    Omer


    "I want to make something clear that I don't like discussions like "quran beats the bible" or "one prophet is higher than the other" etc. Becos I believe its not for me to judge these things, and for a sound discussion and exchange of information, we should accept each other on the same level, not inferior or in higher status."

    I could not agree more; each time allow myself to be drawn in to these debates, I wish I hadn't.:)

    The truth;

    We agree to differ; your faith is right for you, and mine is right for me - neither of us is wrong, and I respect Islam as much as I do Christianity.:)
     
  8. glasgowchick

    glasgowchick Gives Glory to God !!!

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    If I am understanding properly, does the Islam faith, believe that mohammad came after Jesus ?...If So not according to Hebrews.

    God, After he spoke long ago, to the fathers in the prophets, in many portions and in many ways. 2 In these last days He has spoken to us in HIS SON..Who he appointed Heir of ALL THINGS, through whom also made the World..3 And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact reprensention of His nature and up holds ALL things by the word of His power..When he had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the majesty on high..

    When Jesus died on that cross he said " It is finished "...He accomplished everything that needed to be done

    Isaiah 40:3 A voice is calling, clear the way for the Lord in the wilderness Make smooth in the dessert a highway for our God...

    The fulfilment of this is found in Mathew 3 : 1 with John the baptist..who did John make make smooth in the dessert a highway for? our GOD, Who showed up ? Jesus......

    There was no-one else came after Jesus according to the Scriptures... :)
     
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  9. TashaN

    TashaN Veteran Member
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    According to the feedback i got from you guys i would like to go for (( part III )) which concern about the NT.

    We can see in (John 1:20-21):

    1:20 And he confessed, and denied not; but confessed, I am not the Christ.
    1:21 And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elias? and he saith, I am not. Art thou that prophet? And he answered, No.
    and:
    1:25 And they asked him, and said unto him, Why baptizest thou then, if thou be not that Christ, nor Elias, neither that prophet.

    If we look up any Bible which has a concordance or cross-references, the we will find in the marginal note where the words "the Prophet", or "that Prophet" occur in John 1:25, that these words refer to the prophecy of Deuteronomy 18:15 and 18. And that 'that prophet' - 'the prophet like Moses' - "LIKE UNTO THEE", we have proved through overwhelming evidence that he was MUHUMMED.

    Let's study now and focus more and what did Jesus say about Mohamed.

    "Nevertheless, I tell you the truth; it is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you". (HOLY BIBLE) John 16:7

    " And remember, 'Isa, the son of Maryam, said: "O Children of Israel! I am the Messenger of Allah (sent) to you, confirming the Law (which came) before me, and giving Glad Tidings of a Messenger to come after me, whose name shall be Ahmad." But when he came to them with Clear Signs they said, "This is evident sorcery! " (Holy Quran) surah saf 16:6

    I believe that Jesus was send to the sheep of Israel only because Jesus said:

    "These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them saying,
    Go ye not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: But go ye rather unto The Lost Sheep Of The House Of Israel".

    (HOLY BIBLE) Matthew 10:5-6
    However, Jesus (PBUH) didn't help the woman who wasn't a jew because God sent him for the jews only.

    And behold a woman of Canaan came ... and cried unto him saying, have mercy on me ... my daughter is seriously possessed with a devil.
    But he answered her not a word.

    And his disciples came and begged him, saying. Send her away: for she crieth after us.

    But he answered and said, I am Not Sent But Unto The Lost Sheep Of The House Of Israel.

    But she came and knelt before him, saying. Lord, help me.

    But he answered her and said, It is Not Fair To Take The Children's Bread And Cast It To The Dogs.

    (HOLY BIBLE) Matthew 15:22-26
    According to Mark 7.26 the woman was a Greek.

    but why he just came for the sheep of Israel only .. that's because he didn't come with a new law according to Jesus himself when he said:

    Think not that I am come to destroy the law (Hebrew - Torah), or the prophets: I am come not to destroy, but to fulfil.
    For verily I say unto you. Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law (Torah), till all be fulfilled.

    Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

    HOLY BIBLE Matthew 5: 17-19​
    Peace ... :)
     
  10. Omer

    Omer Member

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    Hi Michel;

    I love your comments, I think we have a lot to learn from each other, to purify our beliefs and to strengthen our friendship,

    peace;

    Ömer
     
  11. TashaN

    TashaN Veteran Member
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    Hi Michel, I really aperciate your partcipating in this thread but i just want to make sure whether this thread looks like someone who is offending others or not because i just see it a normal discustion about facts starting from what i believe in and you don't have to agree in what i believe in and i don't have the right to force you to agree with me but i'm trying to analayze and concluding what i read and search about to see whether it makes any sense to others as it makes to me or not.

    Do you think it's bad to compare between faiths and discuss it in away that may lead to discover new things and learn more from each other?

    Do you think we should stick to same faith debate only in order to make everyone happy and to not get involve in what others believe in?


    Peace ... :)
     
  12. glasgowchick

    glasgowchick Gives Glory to God !!!

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    Hi The Truth, I would need to know more about Mohammad before I could even begin to see if he was Like moses or not...All I can tell you is what I see writen in the Scriptures reguarding Jesus and moses..

    John 1:45 says, Phillip found Nathanael and said to him "We have found him of whom Moses in the Law and also the prophets wrote -Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.

    John 5:46-47 it says " For if you believed Moses...you would believe Me, For he wrote about me.. But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe my Words...

    John 5: 37 And the Father who sent me, He has testified of Me, you have niether heard His voice at any time nor seen His form..38 You do not have His words abiding in you, For you do not believe Him whom He sent.

    v39 You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life, it is these that testify about me 40 and you are unwilling to come to me so that you may have life.

    v41 I do not recieve Glory from men 42 But I know you, that you do not have the Love of God in yourselves..

    v 43.I have come in my Fathers name and you do not recieve me, if ANOTHER comes in his OWN name you will recieve him..

    v 44 How can you believe, when you recieve Glory from one another and you do not seek the Glory that is from the one and only God..

    The Truth, if Jesus was standing right there with you, saying everything above, how would you answer Him...thankyou..
     
  13. TashaN

    TashaN Veteran Member
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    Welcome glasgowchick ...

    I'll honor him because he is my lovely prophet who came after Moses and he shall come down again to us from the sky.

    I think you misunderstood me because i didn't mean to neglect Jesus because i believe in all prophets of God as they are mentioned whether in the OT,NT or Quran.

    So, Moses (PBUH) as you just mentioned was talking about Jesus (PBUH) then when Jesus came he told us about another prophet after him and he is Mohamed (PBUH) as i explained before according to Jesus (PBUH) himself.

    I'll be glad to answer anything and i'm waiting for your questions about Mohamed (PBUH).



    Peace ... :)
     
  14. constantine

    constantine the Great

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    This is getting interesting..........good thread.....
    If nothing else , I've learned new religious ideas are mostly just old ideas that get repackaged ,the story is the same but the dates and names have been changed.
    All religious script is translated to provide a reason (god)for questions that can't be answered.
    To find the meaning of life,...... you must live it the way you feel is meaningful.

    We share one god, we could include many more but it's tough getting people to believe any at all.
    The christian religion was based on a god that made perfect sense.. It was religion made simple .If your good... you go to heaven, bad.....hell.. go to church and confess your sins.
    Give to your church and become part of the community your money is providing...
    Church is the community that shares friendships,ideas,and goals.Having faith in your fellow man

    I think you will find many similarities in Johovah and Mohamed.
    first similarity ...both names have 7 letters..many the same..oha....j
     
  15. TashaN

    TashaN Veteran Member
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    I don't think so for a simple reason.

    because we have everything in Quran before 1400 years about all prophets and almost all what we want to know and ofcourse at that time there was no translated bible like we have now.

    I was just curious about things i discovered in the bible and it happened to be in the Quran too and i know about Jesus and what happened to him even before i read my first page in the bible.

    Nevertheless,I posted verses from the bible because it's more interesting to know that you have somthing about Mohamed in your bible (as i discovered lately).


    sure

    Of course you are right about our God (you & me) "because some people think that we have another God different than the creater of the universe which is totally wrong" and i respect all religions even though i believe that Christianity is not that easy as you just explained because it still full of doubts, mystreis, confusion and contradictions which have been admitted by many Christian scholars but i guess it's better to stick to our topic. ;)

    :D not with Johovah.



    Peace ... :)
     
  16. glasgowchick

    glasgowchick Gives Glory to God !!!

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    Hi The Truth, Ok Mohammad, where was He born, who was his parents..Did he do any miracles..was his life at risk as a baby, was he ever in Egypt..When did he die...you know stuff like that...which linage did he come from..

    When You say that Jesus talked about another prophet after him, would you mind if we used the Bible to identify who Jesus was talking about..

    John 14:15 If you love me obey my commandments,16 And I will ask the Father and he will give you another Advocate, " Who will never leave you " 17 He is the "Holy Spirit" who leads into all truth.

    John 14: 25 I am telling you these things while I am still with you v26 But when the advocate comes as my representative..that is the Holy Spirit..He will teach you everything and will remind you of everything I have told you.

    John 15 :26 But I will send you the Advocate, The Spirit of truthHe will come to you from the Father and will testify all about me.

    John 16: 5 But now I am going away to the one who sent me, and not one of you is asking where I am going. v6 Instead you grieve because of what I have told you v7 But in fact it is best for you that I go away, because if I don't, the advocate won't come. If I do go away then I will send him to you v8 And when he comes he will convict the world of sin and of Gods righteousness ad of the coming judgement..

    moving down to v12 There is so much more I want to tell you, but you can't bear it now v13 when the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into All Truth He will not speak on His own but he will tell you what he has heard. He will tell you about the future v14 He will bring me Glory by telling you whatever he recieves from me . v15 All that belongs to the Father is mine, this is why I said, the Spirit will tell you whatever he recieves from me.

    There are many many more verses explaining the Holy Spirit, In some Translations the Holy Spirit is called a Helper too..

    The one that was to come after Jesus was the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Truth. It was His Job to lead the apostles into ALL TRUTH... :)
     
  17. TashaN

    TashaN Veteran Member
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    I hope this website will help you about what you have asked so far and if you have more questions after reading it so please don't hesitate to ask me again. :)

    http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/prophet/profbio.html


    sure, Of course we will use the bible itself to discuss it because in Quran it's so clear.


    Thanks for your post and it helped me to go for the 4th aproach which is:
    Mohamed the (Holy Spirit).

    in my next post i'll explain for you how that could be.


    Peace ... :)
     
  18. glasgowchick

    glasgowchick Gives Glory to God !!!

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    Hi The truth, I want to thankyou for all your information, if anything you have given me some knowlege into your beliefs, but Im sorry, I don't see any point in continuing this debate, for me, the way I look at the Scriptures, I got to start at the begining of Genisis, " in the begining God " and work from there forward, I have every reason to believe that what was said from the beguining was bringing us to a new covenant in Christ, Christ fulfilled over 300 prophecy in the NT that was prophised in the OT concerning him, There is nothing in the NT that leads me to believe that there was anything else to be fulfilled, Jesus did it all and now we await his glorious return..

    You say you believe in the same God [ the creator ] if that is So, then our God said that there is no other name in which we must be saved [ Jesus Christ ] At the transfiguration, on the mount stood Moses, Jesus and Elijah, a voice came from heaven and said, " this is my beloved son " Listen to him" . Our God said, that in these last days he spoke to us through His Son.....Im going to trust God and what He says...Thankyou for all your information..I will leave you with Isa 53..

    Who has believed our message?
    And to whom has the arm or the Lord been revealed ?
    For he grow up before them like a tender shoot,
    And like a root out of parched ground
    He has no stately form or majesty
    That we should look apon him
    Nor appearance that we should be attracted to him.
    He was dispised and forsaken by men
    A man and sorrows and aquainted grief
    And Like one from whom men hid their face

    Surely our griefs he bore
    and our sorrows he carried
    Yet we ourselves esteemed Him striken
    But He was pierced through our transgressions
    He was Crushed for our iniquities
    The chastening for our well being fell upon Him
    And by His scourging we are healed
    All of us like sheep have gone astray
    Each of us has turned to his own way
    But the Lord has caused the iniquity of us all to fall on Him

    He was oppressed and He was afflicted
    yet he did not open His mouth
    Like a lamb who was lead to the slaughter
    And like a sheep that is silent before its sheares
    so He did not open His mouth
    By oppression and Jugement he was taken away
    And as for his generation, who concidered
    That He was cut out of the land of the living
    For the transgression of my people, to whom the stroke was due?
    His grave was assigned with wicked men
    Yet He was with a rich manin His death.
    Because he done no violence
    Nor was there any deciet in His mouth.

    But the Lord was pleased
    To crush Him, putting Him to grief
    If He would render Himself as a guilt offering
    He will see His offspring
    He will prolong His days
    And the good pleasure of the Lord will prosper in His hand
    As a result of the anguish of His soul
    He will see it and be satisfied
    By His Knowlege the righteous one
    My servant will justify the many
    as He will bear their iniquities
    Therefore I will allot Him a portion with the great
    And He will divided the booty with the strong
    because He poured out Himself to death
    And He was Numbered with the transgressors
    Yet He himself bore the sins of many
    and interceded for the transgressors
    .

    Amen..
     
  19. TashaN

    TashaN Veteran Member
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    I don't know why do think that i'm trying to deny Jesus's prophecy that you are talking about because i believe in Jesus (PBUH) too.

    anyway, I'm talking about the HOLY SPIRIT which Jesus said that he will come after him (and you didn't neglect it in your pervious post about that"the holy spirit")

    I hope that you can understand me now and if you have anything to say i wish that you will not just say (( I don't believe you or somthing like that )) but to show me where is the thing from what i mention in here is wrong and which one is right and that's all my friend.

    Until now i didn't see anyone neglecting what i just said except bringing other verses and confessing that they will remain believe in Jesus whatever happened assuming that i'm trying to take them away of what Jesus teach which is totally wrong.

    i'll post my 4th aproach and i hope that you will share it with me in order to discuss things i persoanlly believe in which absoloutly not necessary to be right 100%.
     
  20. TashaN

    TashaN Veteran Member
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    But the Comforter, Which is The Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. (Emphasis added).

    (HOLY BIBLE) John 14: 26

    You do not have to be a Bible scholar of any calibre to sense that the expression "which is the Holy Spirit" is actually an interpolation. It ought to be in parenthesis, in brackets, like my words which have been interpolated in the quotation, i.e. "(emphasis added)." Although the editors of the RSV have expunged dozens of interpolations from their boasted Revised Standard Version, they have retained this jarring phrase which contradicts other explicit predictions of Jesus (pbuh) on the subject of the Comforter itself.


    (i) It may be noted that no Biblical scholar of any standing has ever equated the "paracletos" of John in the original Greek with the Holy Ghost. Now we can say with one breath that if the Comforter is the "Holy Spirit" then that Holy Spirit is the Holy Prophet!

    As Muslims we acknowledge that every true prophet of God is Holy and without sin. But whenever the expression "The Holy Prophet" is used among Muslims it is universally accepted as referring to the Holy Prophet Muhummed (pbuh). So even if we accept the above incongruous saying — "the Comforter which is the Holy Spirit," as Gospel truth, even then this prophecy will fit Muhummed (pbuh) like a glove, without any stretching of its meaning.

    The same John, who is supposed to have authored the Gospel bearing his name, also penned three more Epistles which are also part of the Christian Bible. Amazingly he has used the same terminology of "Holy Spirit" for "Holy Prophet."

    Beloved, believe not every Spirit, but try the Spirits whether they

    are of God; because many false Prophets are gone out into the World.

    (HOLY BIBLE) 1 John 4: 1

    You can observe that the word spirit is used here synonymously with a prophet. A true spirit is a true prophet, and a false spirit is a false prophet But for the Christians who see only with eyes of emotion, I recommend that they lay their hands on C.I. Scofield's Authorized King lames Version of the Bible who with an Editorial Committee of 9 D.D.’s adding their notes and comments. When they come to the First word "spirit" in the above verse they should give a notation to compare it with Matthew 7: 15 which confirms that false prophets are false spirits. So according to St. John the Holy Spirit is the Holy Prophet, and the Holy Prophet is Muhummed (pbuh) the Messenger of God.

    Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every Spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God.
    (HOLY BIBLE) 1 John 4: 2

    According to John's own interpretation in verse one above the word "spirit" is synonymous with the word prophet So verse two "Spirit of God" would mean Prophet of God and "Every spirit" would stand for every Prophet You have a right to know as to what the Holy Prophet Muhummed (pbuh) says about "Jesus Christ."

    Jesus Christ (peace be upon him) is spoken by name no less than 25 times in the Holy Qur'an. He is honoured as —

    Isa ibn Maryam (Jesus, the son of Mary)

    An-nabi (The Prophet)

    As-saaliheen (The Righteous)

    Kalimatu'Llah (Word of God)

    Ruhu-Llah (Spirit of God)

    Masih-uLlah (Christ of God)



    Behold the angels said: "O Mary! God giveth thee Glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held In honour in this world and The Hereafter and of (the Company of) those nearest to God-
    (SURA al-i-'imran) Holy Qur'an 3:45
     
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