Modern Churches not operating gifts of the Spirit.

[Nova2216]

Here is a test for those who claim to have the gifts of the Spirit.

Read (Jn 14:26) and apply it.

26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Quote (Mt.Chapter 1) without opening your bible.

I do not know anyone who can do it and get all the pronunciations correct.

 

[Nova2216]

74x12 said - "Jesus claimed whoever believes in Him will do even greater works than He did. (John 14:12)"

Me - Jesus healed people and raised the dead. Jesus walked on water.


Please tell me what "works" would be "greater' than those Jesus done?


Thanks

 

[74x12]

Read (Jn 14:26) and apply it.

26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Quote (Mt.Chapter 1) without opening your bible.

I do not know anyone who can do it and get all the pronunciations correct.

That's not how it works and that's not how the gifts of the Spirit work. You cannot command the holy Spirit at will. The holy Spirit will bring what Jesus says to remembrance at key moments when you need to remember. For example, it was the holy Spirit that enabled them to remember and write the gospel accounts years later. (2 Tim. 3:16)

And the Spirit can enable you to understand and actually apply the Word of God. Not like what you're saying. It just makes no sense. Nor does God care that much about proper pronunciation of genealogies.

74x12 said - "Jesus claimed whoever believes in Him will do even greater works than He did. (John 14:12)"

Me - Jesus healed people and raised the dead. Jesus walked on water.


Please tell me what "works" would be "greater' than those Jesus done?


Thanks

He said it and I believe it.

 

[moorea944]

It's clear that in 1 Corinthians 12 when Christians assemble for church time together they should be operating in the gifts of the Spirit so they can minister to one another's needs. Not from themselves, but through the holy Spirit they should be ministering to one another's needs. So if someone needs healing then the gift of healing can be used. Or if someone needs a prophecy etc. You can read about the gifts for yourself in 1 Cor. 12. This thread is about how modern churches are sometimes missing out.

BTW I still believe all this is important. Preaching, singing, altar call, giving offering etc. But the gifts of the Spirit need to be used more often.

The question is how should church service be structured so that when the body comes together they can operate in the gifts of the Spirit. Not just one or two people with a microphone doing all the work. But the whole body operating the gifts as they should operate as God has given each person.

The Holy Spirit gifts died out with the apostles. We do not have them today. There is no need for that. There is no one today that speaks in tongues or heel the sick or raise the dead. None of it. Scripture tells us that at some point that will come back, but only at our Lord's return.

There are so many false churches out there that their people say that the can speak in tongues, but is is only babbling and gibberish talk. That is not speaking in tongues. Also, some people "claim" that they can heal people, but only in their church. Strange.... because the apostles had no problem going out into the street to heal too and everyone saw that. Even their shadow healed. We dont have anything like that today. But we will have it back when our Lord returns.

 

[74x12]

The Holy Spirit gifts died out with the apostles. We do not have them today. There is no need for that. There is no one today that speaks in tongues or heel the sick or raise the dead. None of it. Scripture tells us that at some point that will come back, but only at our Lord's return.

There are so many false churches out there that their people say that the can speak in tongues, but is is only babbling and gibberish talk. That is not speaking in tongues. Also, some people "claim" that they can heal people, but only in their church. Strange.... because the apostles had no problem going out into the street to heal too and everyone saw that. Even their shadow healed. We dont have anything like that today. But we will have it back when our Lord returns.

2 Tim 3:5 predicts some people will have a form of godliness but deny the power thereof. I don't want to be in that category.

The scripture says Jesus Christ is the same yesterday today and forever. And it claims that God never changes. So, why would God stop doing miracles now? He always did miracles in the Bible; but suddenly He doesn't do it for this generation? Nope. The real problem is that this generation lacks faith in God. (Matthew 17:17)

All true churches should be operating in the gifts of the Spirit. Unless they don't have the Spirit then I understand why they can't. And they'll see miracles also if they have faith. If you have enough faith you can have miracles like the apostles. What holds people back is unbelief. So they tell themselves that miracles are not for today. They don't want to challenge themselves to have more faith or to get rid of their unbelief or to do the works of God.

 

[moorea944]

2 Tim 3:5 predicts some people will have a form of godliness but deny the power thereof. I don't want to be in that category.

The scripture says Jesus Christ is the same yesterday today and forever. And it claims that God never changes. So, why would God stop doing miracles now? He always did miracles in the Bible; but suddenly He doesn't do it for this generation? Nope. The real problem is that this generation lacks faith in God. (Matthew 17:17)

All true churches should be operating in the gifts of the Spirit. Unless they don't have the Spirit then I understand why they can't. And they'll see miracles also if they have faith. If you have enough faith you can have miracles like the apostles. What holds people back is unbelief. So they tell themselves that miracles are not for today. They don't want to challenge themselves to have more faith or to get rid of their unbelief or to do the works of God.

[All true churches should be operating in the gifts of the Spirit.]
Can you explain what that means? We do have gifts, I believe that. We each have our own talents for our churches and for our personal life. But it's not talking about receiving the Holy Spirit gifts in our day. There is no reason to speak in tongues or to raise the dead. We now have the complete scripture.

[Unless they don't have the Spirit then I understand why they can't.]
What kind of spirit are you talking about? The Spirit of God? Scripture tells us that God's Spirit IS in us. But that has nothing to do with us receiving the Holy Spirit gifts.

[And they'll see miracles also if they have faith.]
If I have faith, which I do, what type of miracles will I see? Not really sure what your implying. Are you saying, if I have faith, I"ll see people talk in tongues and heal people? I hope not.....

[If you have enough faith you can have miracles like the apostles.]
Your kidding me, right?

[ What holds people back is unbelief.]
No, what holds people back from believing that we still have the HS gifts today is understanding what the HS gifts were really meant for.

Look at the people who think that they can speak in tongues. Do you understand them? Do you know what "speaking in tongues" actually means? I'll give you an example.... I dont speak French at all. If I go to France to preach, speaking English, alot of French people wont understand me. But If God gave me the power of speaking in tongues, and gave me the ability to now speak French, which I never did before, now people can understand me. I"m speaking in a language that I never knew... that... is what speaking in tongues means, not babbling in made up words in their church, jumping up and down!!

 

[74x12]

Can you explain what that means? We do have gifts, I believe that. We each have our own talents for our churches and for our personal life. But it's not talking about receiving the Holy Spirit gifts in our day. There is no reason to speak in tongues or to raise the dead. We now have the complete scripture.

I mean the gifts of the Spirit that Paul specified in 1 Corinthians 12.

1. Word of wisdom
2. Word of Knowledge
3. gift of faith
4. gifts of healing
5. working of miracles
6. prophecy
7. discerning of spirits
8. divers kinds of tongues
9. interpretation of tongues

What kind of spirit are you talking about? The Spirit of God? Scripture tells us that God's Spirit IS in us. But that has nothing to do with us receiving the Holy Spirit gifts.

Of course I mean the holy Spirit of God if I capitalize the S.

God's Spirit is not in us unless we receive the holy Spirit. That is how you have the Spirit in you. Many Christians don't have the Spirit. They just think they do.

If I have faith, which I do, what type of miracles will I see? Not really sure what your implying. Are you saying, if I have faith, I"ll see people talk in tongues and heal people? I hope not.....

So explain why you wouldn't want God to heal people please?

You will see whatever kind of miracle that is needed if you have enough faith.

Your kidding me, right?

No?

No, what holds people back from believing that we still have the HS gifts today is understanding what the HS gifts were really meant for.

Look at the people who think that they can speak in tongues. Do you understand them? Do you know what "speaking in tongues" actually means? I'll give you an example.... I dont speak French at all. If I go to France to preach, speaking English, alot of French people wont understand me. But If God gave me the power of speaking in tongues, and gave me the ability to now speak French, which I never did before, now people can understand me. I"m speaking in a language that I never knew... that... is what speaking in tongues means, not babbling in made up words in their church, jumping up and down!!

Look at what the scriptures themselves say about the gift of tongues. It is not so that you can preach to people in French.

First of all we must differentiate between the gift of tongues and the tongues that come when people first receive the holy Spirit.

The tongues they received on the day of Pentecost was for all of them. (Acts 2:1-4) Everyone got that.

But that is not the "gift of tongues". The gift of tongues is in addition to that.

The gift of tongues is what Paul speaks of in 1 Corinthians 12.

Which is why he asks -rhetorically- in verse 30 "Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?"

So you can see that not everyone has the gift of tongues. It's a special gift.

What is the purpose of the gift of tongues?
It is for the purpose of prophecy. It is like the gift of prophecy but it needs an interpreter which is one of the other gifts of the Spirit.

1 Corinthians 14:5 I would that ye all spake with tongues but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

In 1 Cor. 15:5 you can see that anyone who prophecies is greater than someone who speaks in tongues; unless they interpret the tongues for the church. IN which case it is like a prophecy.

So that is the most obvious purpose of the gift of tongues. It is to be interpreted and to edify the church like a prophecy.

The second purpose of the gift of tongues is also outlined in scripture.

First of all in 1 Cor. 14:18 Paul claims he speaks in tongues more than them all(speaking to the church in Corinth). So, Paul often in tongues. But he did it in his personal prayer time. Notice what he says in verse 19.

"Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue."

So, Paul did not like to just speak in tongues in church. He wanted to edify people and so he spoke clearly. But in private, he would pray often in tongues.

Therefore, we can conclude that the gift of tongues is also given to help us in our personal prayer time. If you have the gift of tongues you can pray more easily in the Spirit.

Paul said:
"He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church."

"For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful."

"For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified."

So in conclusion; for personal prayer time in your own prayer closet you can use the gift of tongues for edifying yourself, praying with your spirit an giving thanks and worshiping God.

 

[Nova2216]

That's not how it works and that's not how the gifts of the Spirit work. You cannot command the holy Spirit at will. The holy Spirit will bring what Jesus says to remembrance at key moments when you need to remember. For example, it was the holy Spirit that enabled them to remember and write the gospel accounts years later. (2 Tim. 3:16)

Well then, explain this verse.

(1Cor.14:32) -32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.

According to the verse above the prophets had control over the Holy Spirit.

Thanks

 

[metis]

Well then, explain this verse.

(1Cor.14:32) -32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.

According to the verse above the prophets had control over the Holy Spirit.

Thanks

I don't believe that's what the author meant as "spirit" can mean different things depending on context.

 

[Redemptionsong]

It's clear that in 1 Corinthians 12 when Christians assemble for church time together they should be operating in the gifts of the Spirit so they can minister to one another's needs. Not from themselves, but through the holy Spirit they should be ministering to one another's needs. So if someone needs healing then the gift of healing can be used. Or if someone needs a prophecy etc. You can read about the gifts for yourself in 1 Cor. 12. This thread is about how modern churches are sometimes missing out.

BTW I still believe all this is important. Preaching, singing, altar call, giving offering etc. But the gifts of the Spirit need to be used more often.

The question is how should church service be structured so that when the body comes together they can operate in the gifts of the Spirit. Not just one or two people with a microphone doing all the work. But the whole body operating the gifts as they should operate as God has given each person.

I agree with you, 74x12. But as the replies suggest, there are a lot of churches that don't believe the manifestations of the Spirit are for our age.

One also needs to be aware that when a church, or individual, preaches the gospel with power, there will inevitably be spiritual battles. Satan does not appreciate his strongholds being assaulted and destroyed. You can guarantee that where healing and deliverance occur, the adversary will do his best to disrupt and undermine!

Those engaged in the front line of spiritual warfare need steady prayer and support.

 

[74x12]

Well then, explain this verse.

(1Cor.14:32) -32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.

According to the verse above the prophets had control over the Holy Spirit.

Thanks

They cannot -at will- get a Word of prophecy from God. This verse means the holy Spirit does not take control of the prophet like some pagan religions were used to seeing in those days. In those days if you went to an oracle of some pagan deity then the oracle might go into some kind of frenzy to deliver a message. It was like a seizure or something.

But a true prophet of God is not forced to speak. God does not take possession of the body ... They can be silent if they choose. But, they may find it hard to refrain for long such as Jeremiah in 20:9. So Jeremiah could stay silent if he wanted. But yet he couldn't stay silent long because He felt the urgency and zeal to deliver the message. But was not forced to speak.

But proof you cannot instantly get a Word from the holy Spirit whenever you want is seen in these verses:

• In 2 Kings 3:15 we find that Elisha needed the Word of prophecy to come so he had a ministral play music which gave opportunity for the Spirit to move. Now, he wouldn't have needed a ministral if he could just command the holy Spirit at will.
• In Jeremiah 42:2-7 we find that when they asked Jeremiah for the Word of the LORD concerning their plans ... Jeremiah had to pray for a prophecy to come and then waited 10 days and finally it came. So, Jeremiah could not just prophecy whenever he wanted. Sometimes, he had to wait days to get an answer.

So sometimes a prophet might instantly get a Word from God; but definitely not always.

 

[74x12]

I agree with you, 7x12. But as the replies suggest, there are a lot of churches that don't believe the manifestations of the Spirit are for our age.

One also needs to be aware that when a church, or individual, preaches the gospel with power, there will inevitably be spiritual battles. Satan does not appreciate his strongholds being assaulted and destroyed. You can guarantee that where healing and deliverance occur, the adversary will do his best to disrupt and undermine!

Those engaged in the front line of spiritual warfare need steady prayer and support.

Thank you Redemption Song. You've made good points here.

 

[Nova2216]

The word of God says Jesus said "all things" that pertain to life and godliness in (2Peter 1:3).

3 According as his divine power hath given unto us "all things" that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

God has said all He is going to say.

If he spoke to you and not me then He would be a respecter of persons.

11 For there is no respect of persons with God. (Rom.2:11).


Thanks

 

[74x12]

The word of God says Jesus said "all things" that pertain to life and godliness in (2Peter 1:3).

3 According as his divine power hath given unto us "all things" that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

God has said all He is going to say.

If he spoke to you and not me then He would be a respecter of persons.

11 For there is no respect of persons with God. (Rom.2:11).


Thanks

In the old Testament God gave His Spirit to the prophets.

But In the new Testament the prophecy of Joel is fulfilled that God would pour out His Spirit on all flesh. So, God is no respecter of persons. As Peter said in Acts 10:34-35. So God will give His Spirit to all who seek for this gift. You don't have to be a prophet now to have the holy Spirit.

God Will Give His Spirit to All People
28 “After this,
I will pour out my Spirit on all kinds of people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
your old men will have dreams,
and your young men will see visions.
29 In those days I will pour out my Spirit
even on servants, both men and women.

Luke 11:13
If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

 

[Nova2216]

People have missed the reason for the gifts (1Cor.12).

Miracles were done to show God approved of the speaker and the message spoken (Heb.2:3,4) (Mark 16:20).

The miracles done in the first century "confirmed" the person speaking and the message spoke was sent by God. If this point is missed error runs rampant.

They had no bibles at that time. Today to test a speaker we open the Bible (1Peter 4:11) (1Jn 4:1) (Eph.3:3,4).

(1Jn 4:1) - 1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.



If people would study one phrase they would realize why miracles ceased around the first century.

(Acts 8:18,19)

18 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,
19 Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost.

that through "laying on of the apostles hands" the Holy Ghost was given

that through laying on of the apostles' hands

the apostles' hands

Today there are no apostles.

No apostles - No miracles

It's just that simple.

To be an apostle one must have seen Jesus in the first century (Ac.1:22) (1Jn 1:1-3).

21 Wherefore of these men which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us,
22 Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection. (Ac.1:21,21)


1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. (1Jn 4:1-3)

For these reasons there are no apostles today.


Most of those who claim miracles happen today have some of the best medical insurance available.

Why does one need medical insurance if you can do miracles?

Why does one need a doctor if you can do miracles?

Someone needs to ask these preachers why they have such insurance.

 

[Nova2216]

In the old Testament God gave His Spirit to the prophets.

But In the new Testament the prophecy of Joel is fulfilled that God would pour out His Spirit on all flesh. So, God is no respecter of persons. As Peter said in Acts 10:34-35. So God will give His Spirit to all who seek for this gift. You don't have to be a prophet now to have the holy Spirit.

God Will Give His Spirit to All People
28 “After this,
I will pour out my Spirit on all kinds of people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
your old men will have dreams,
and your young men will see visions.
29 In those days I will pour out my Spirit
even on servants, both men and women.

Luke 11:13
If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

We live under the NT Law today and not the OT Law. The death of Jesus separates the two covenants. (Luke 16:16) (Heb.8:6-13) (Heb.9:15-17) (Heb.10:9,10).


(Joel 2:28) spoke of "all flesh". That referred to Jew and Gentile. We see the Holy Spirit poured out on the Jews in (Ac.2) and we see the Holy Spirit poured out on the Gentiles in (Ac.10). - That's "all flesh".

In (Ac. 8:13-19) Peter and John had to come down from Jerusalem and "lay their hands upon" the Samaritans for them to receive the Holy Spirit.

Notice the Ephesians conversion in (Ac.19:1-6).

"lay their hands upon"

Thanks

 

[moorea944]

People have missed the reason for the gifts (1Cor.12).

Miracles were done to show God approved of the speaker and the message spoken (Heb.2:3,4) (Mark 16:20).

The miracles done in the first century "confirmed" the person speaking and the message spoke was sent by God. If this point is missed error runs rampant.

They had no bibles at that time. Today to test a speaker we open the Bible (1Peter 4:11) (1Jn 4:1) (Eph.3:3,4).

(1Jn 4:1) - 1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.



If people would study one phrase they would realize why miracles ceased around the first century.

(Acts 8:18,19)

18 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,
19 Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost.

that through "laying on of the apostles hands" the Holy Ghost was given

that through laying on of the apostles' hands

the apostles' hands

Today there are no apostles.

No apostles - No miracles

It's just that simple.

To be an apostle one must have seen Jesus in the first century (Ac.1:22) (1Jn 1:1-3).

21 Wherefore of these men which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us,
22 Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection. (Ac.1:21,21)


1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. (1Jn 4:1-3)

For these reasons there are no apostles today.


Most of those who claim miracles happen today have some of the best medical insurance available.

Why does one need medical insurance if you can do miracles?

Why does one need a doctor if you can do miracles?

Someone needs to ask these preachers why they have such insurance.

Great post, thanks.

Just also want to add... most of these churches that say that they can do miracles, why is it done only in there church? Why cant they go outside into the streets and heal people? The apostles did..... Even their shadows healed people. (Acts 5). How come we dont see that today? When was the last time we saw on the news, a pastor or church elder walk to church and heal someone on the way? We dont....

The HS gifts died out with the apostles. We dont need them anymore, we have the scriptures now.

 

[metis]

The HS gifts died out with the apostles. We dont need them anymore, we have the scriptures now.

I have to disagree with this as I very much do believe that the HS can very much play a role in our being attracted to the faith to begin with, and also to assist us in possible other ways. I strongly believe that it led me back to the faith I had left 20 years previous, for example.

Also, just a reminder that the Bible that most use today was chosen in the 4th century by the Church, thus long after the Apostles were gone.

 

[moorea944]

I have to disagree with this as I very much do believe that the HS can very much play a role in our being attracted to the faith to begin with, and also to assist us in possible other ways. I strongly believe that it led me back to the faith I had left 20 years previous, for example.

Also, just a reminder that the Bible that most use today was chosen in the 4th century by the Church, thus long after the Apostles were gone.

[I have to disagree with this as I very much do believe that the HS can very much play a role in our being attracted to the faith to begin with, and also to assist us in possible other ways.]

I agree with you on that very much, but that's not what we are talking about..... I do believe that the Holy Spirit or the spirit of God, God's power, does work with us in our lives. God manifestation right there, absolutely!!!

 

[Nova2216]

Metis said -"Also, just a reminder that the Bible that most use today was chosen in the 4th century by the Church, thus long after the Apostles were gone."


Nova2216 Posted -

The Muratorian Fragment
(about A.D. 170)

Muratorian FragmentThe Muratorian Fragment is the oldest known list of New Testament books. It was discovered by Ludovico Antonio Muratori in a manuscript in the Ambrosian Library in Milan, and published by him in 1740. * It is called a fragment because the beginning of it is missing. Although the manuscript in which it appears was copied during the seventh century, the list itself is dated to about 170 because its author refers to the episcopate of Pius I of Rome (died 157) as recent.


The Muratorian Fragment