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MLK

Should we create sculptures, and remember people, for the good and bad, for all that they were?

The problem is that people want saints rather than heroes.

A hero is someone who achieves greatness by accomplishing something important and praiseworthy.

A saint achieves something while living a pure and flawless life.

It's no wonder that people had to create semi-fictional biographies for the actual saints, purely noble people seldom exist, and certainly not when they are re-evaluated by every subsequent generation according to the new standards of a society.

In addition, people like to tear down the icons of the previous generation, or the icons of the 'other side', as destruction is fun, especially when it comes with an air of self-righteous superiority. So you see people trying to cancel Churchill, Lincoln, Ghandi, etc.

Recognising the flaws of great people is healthy though. It reminds us that we are all flawed, and to be less judgemental as our mistakes don't define us. It also is a good way to understand the changing values of past societies.

I think we should celebrate people's great achievements, and if they did things wrong we can learn about those too.

I think it is important for societies to have inspirational figures, and also those who help tell the story (or perhaps mythos) of a society.

What is celebrated is how they changed society for the better (and they are often really a personification of a much broader series of actors). We don't need them to be saints, and there needn't be a choice between promoting only whitewashed hagiography or them being cancelled.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
At present this seems little more than innuendo.

It's not too surprising for this kind of story to be given another spin at the moment, when the US right is casting around for a post-Trump future. A spot of of (deniable) racism, and goading of the left by attacking one of its icons, could be just the ticket. In this case, A Murdoch tabloid uses the unveiling of a sculpture to resurrect a murky accusation, for no obvious reason. But lots of (white) readers will love it, of course.

However, that's not to say there can't be any truth in it. Almost all heroes turn out to have feet of clay.
Let's say that they are true. Does that change the message? I would say 'No'. Whether the accusations are true or false his message was still right on the money.
 

idea

Question Everything
The author if the art: Hank Willis Thomas's personal website

I actually do support teaching honest history about everyone to everyone.

Worship of any leader is unhealthy. We're all just people. Taking all leaders off their throne encourages free thinking, encourages self-reliance, creates a safer society.
 
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exchemist

Veteran Member
Let's say that they are true. Does that change the message? I would say 'No'. Whether the accusations are true or false his message was still right on the money.
That's true of all the heroes with feet of clay I could list. Churchill was a racist and imperialist. H G Wells went in for eugenics. D H Lawrence was an an all-round s***. Mozart went in for scatological humour. Newton had a vicious streak. Bach was always fighting with somebody or other, even drawing his sword to fight off an attack from a trumpeter he had humiliated in a rehearsal. Personal failings don't alter the magnitude of their achievement.
 

exchemist

Veteran Member
The author if the art: Hank Willis Thomas's personal website

I actually do support teaching honest history about everyone to everyone.

Worship of any leader is unhealthy. We're all just people. Taking all leaders off their thrown encourages free thinking, encourages self-reliance, creates a safer society.
Non-sequitur or what? The sculpture has nothing to do with this ugly rumour.

(Your spellchecker has just ****** up, by the way.:D)
 
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Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Hopefully they are not based on the politics of J Edgar Hoover.

J. Edgar Hoover's politics were the same as Nixon's and McCarthy's politics. Hoover thought MLK was a communist. That was what people would say if they were against MLK or the cause of Civil Rights in general. They would never admit to having anything against people for the color of their skin, but they would say that MLK and the Civil Rights movement were communist-backed. And it's true that the communists were extremely critical of U.S. racist and segregationist policies, but they weren't the only ones.
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
There is a practice I quite loathe which is attacking people who did wonderful things because they were not perfect. Some of these attacks are lying politically motivated attacks and some are because they were not the perfect ideals by contemporary standards.

I prefer focusing on the wonderfully positive contributions they all made.
 

idea

Question Everything
That's true of all the heroes with feet of clay I could list. Churchill was a racist and imperialist. H G Wells went in for eugenics. D H Lawrence was an an all-round s***. Mozart went in for scatological humour. Newton had a vicious streak. Bach was always fighting with somebody or other, even drawing his sword to fight off an attack from a trumpeter he had humiliated in a rehearsal. Personal failings don't alter the magnitude of their achievement.

And Einstein too.

It's not *their* individual achievement, it's always a collaborative effort. Principles, not people, should be the focus.

Loyalty to imperfect people create unhealthy heirarchies.

Loyalty to principles, ideas, concepts creates healthy, logical policies.

Not his side or her side - not attached to any imperfect person, we should follow logical ideas not people.
 

idea

Question Everything
There is a practice I quite loathe which is attacking people who did wonderful things because they were not perfect. Some of these attacks are lying politically motivated attacks and some are because they were not the perfect ideals by contemporary standards.

I prefer focusing on the wonderfully positive contributions they all made.

Perhaps if the person "who did wonderful things" was also the person who abused your child - you would think differently.

"focusing on the wonderfully positive" = turning your back on abuse victims.
 

exchemist

Veteran Member
And Einstein too.

It's not *their* individual achievement, it's always a collaborative effort. Principles, not people, should be the focus.

Loyalty to imperfect people create unhealthy heirarchies.

Loyalty to principles, ideas, concepts creates healthy, logical policies.

Not his side or her side - not attached to any imperfect person, we should follow logical ideas not people.
Yes I think I subscribe to that. But we do need our heroes too. Any newspaperman will tell you that you need a human story to enthuse people. One example: I was always annoyed that British rowing got almost no coverage - until the papers discovered Steve Redgrave. Suddenly, they could make it all about him, and rowing successes got on the front pages! Before then, as it was a team sport, by self-effacing individuals, nobody in the press bothered. (There was an effort to do the same with Katherine Grainger at the 2012 Olympics.)
 

Left Coast

This Is Water
Staff member
Premium Member
Article from a few years ago by the historian cited in the OP's first link:
 

Attachments

  • DJGStandpoint2019.pdf
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Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member

idea

Question Everything
The 1st article wants me to sign up.
I won't.
Quote it?

It talks about MLK being an adulterer, with other examples of the evils many different leaders have done. Discuss if statues /history books should be transparent about who everyone is.

Looks like previously classified documents about MLK will become available to public in a few years.
 
It's not *their* individual achievement, it's always a collaborative effort. Principles, not people, should be the focus.

Loyalty to imperfect people create unhealthy heirarchies.

Loyalty to principles, ideas, concepts creates healthy, logical policies.

Principles and ideas are best communicated via narratives though, and these are often easiest to construct around people who are emblematic of that ideal.

So MLK is emblematic of the civil rights movement and Churchill for Britain's struggle and resilience in WW2.

Their stories are entry points for those about principles and collaborative efforts, and I'm not how practical it is to believe things could be other than this.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
It talks about MLK being an adulterer, with other examples of the evils many different leaders have done. Discuss if statues /history books should be transparent about who everyone is.

Looks like previously classified documents about MLK will become available to public in a few years.
Meh...he's never been one of my saints.
 

idea

Question Everything
Principles and ideas are best communicated via narratives though, and these are often easiest to construct around people who are emblematic of that ideal.

So MLK is emblematic of the civil rights movement and Churchill for Britain's struggle and resilience in WW2.

Their stories are entry points for those about principles and collaborative efforts, and I'm not how practical it is to believe things could be other than this.

Humans are social animals. Hierarchical - follow the leader- oppressive power structure mindsets are created through worshipping people rather than principles.

Showing people for who they really are, that it was everyone - not a single person - who creates change. Shifting the focus to principles and ideas, self-reliance and critical thinking- rather than loyalty to any individual - would create a healthier society.

No loyalty to any individual should ever be taught. Freedom is maintained by not following leaders.
 
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