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Mitzvah

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
I never said there's no such thing as "satan" in Judaism. That would be preposterous, at the very least for the verses you brought. I am talking about your claim that Satan in Judaism is some kind of fallen angel rebelling against God. As explained above, this is pretty much baseless.

That may be so... but it does mean "adversary". If it is an adversary... that would be against God.

Yes, "the fallen angel" is a Christian concept... I don't think I have ever said it is a Judaeo concept.

But, apparently we do have in common that he is an angel. Correct?

I would just like to note about this image that whoever made this misspelled Satan. Rather than spelling it שטן, they spelled it שתן which actually means urine.
Thanks for the correction. Who know, a typo?
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
That may be so... but it does mean "adversary". If it is an adversary... that would be against God.

Yes, "the fallen angel" is a Christian concept... I don't think I have ever said it is a Judaeo concept.

But, apparently we do have in common that he is an angel. Correct?


Thanks for the correction. Who know, a typo?
The adversary is an adversary to man, not God.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
I used not to believe in Satan until one blind date I had several decades ago. :emojconfused:
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
The adversary is an adversary to man, not God.
I think that is a matter of opinion:

Zechariah 3:1
And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the Lord, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him.

If he is resisting the man that is before the angel of the Lord... he is resisting what God wants.

2 The LORD said to Satan, “The LORD rebuke you, Satan! The LORD, who has chosen Jerusalem, rebuke you! Is not this man a burning stick snatched from the fire?”

Obviously if Stan was rebuked... he wasn't for The LORD - he was an adverary.

But viewpoints differ.

Even Michael, one of the chief princes, was resisted in the delivery of an answer of the prayer of Daniel 10:12 Then said he unto me, Fear not, Daniel: for from the first day that thou didst set thine heart to understand, and to chasten thyself before thy God, thy words were heard, and I am come for thy words.13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.

not that it was Satan... but an adversary is still an adversary.
 
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Harel13

Am Yisrael Chai
Staff member
Premium Member
that would be against God
Not following the logic.
But, apparently we do have in common that he is an angel. Correct?
Yes, we have that in common.
Yes, "the fallen angel" is a Christian concept... I don't think I have ever said it is a Judaeo concept.
Above you brought Enoch and other sources to attempt to show just that.
Who know, a typo?
I was thinking weak knowledge of Hebrew, but sure, typo works as well. :p
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member

rosends

Well-Known Member
I think that is a matter of opinion:

Zechariah 3:1
And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the Lord, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him.

If he is resisting the man that is before the angel of the Lord... he is resisting what God wants.

2 The LORD said to Satan, “The LORD rebuke you, Satan! The LORD, who has chosen Jerusalem, rebuke you! Is not this man a burning stick snatched from the fire?”

Obviously if Stan was rebuked... he wasn't for The LORD - he was an adverary.

But viewpoints differ.

Even Michael, one of the chief princes, was resisted in the delivery of an answer of the prayer of Daniel 10:12 Then said he unto me, Fear not, Daniel: for from the first day that thou didst set thine heart to understand, and to chasten thyself before thy God, thy words were heard, and I am come for thy words.13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.

not that it was Satan... but an adversary is still an adversary.
In Zech 3:1
He further showed me Joshua, the high priest, standing before the angel of the LORD, and the Accuser standing at his right to accuse him.

the accuser is there to accuse Joshua but the angel steps in to tell the accuser not to accuse Joshua because god has removed Joshua's sin. The entire function of the "satan" figure in Judaism is to oppose man and get him into trouble and then accuse him of doing something to get into trouble. He works for God. That's not subject to opinion within Judaism.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
In Zech 3:1
He further showed me Joshua, the high priest, standing before the angel of the LORD, and the Accuser standing at his right to accuse him.

the accuser is there to accuse Joshua but the angel steps in to tell the accuser not to accuse Joshua because god has removed Joshua's sin. The entire function of the "satan" figure in Judaism is to oppose man and get him into trouble and then accuse him of doing something to get into trouble. He works for God. That's not subject to opinion within Judaism.
Yes... we can agree that Satan is the accuser... another agreement in our faiths. Certainly your position is that Satan is there to oppose man... I also agree so "another agreement in our faiths".

However... we definitely disagree in our viewpoints on whether he is just opposing man or is he also the opposer of God.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Yes... we can agree that Satan is the accuser... another agreement in our faiths. Certainly your position is that Satan is there to oppose man... I also agree so "another agreement in our faiths".

However... we definitely disagree in our viewpoints on whether he is just opposing man or is he also the opposer of God.
The point is that The Accuser is a very different sort of entity in Judaism than in Christianity. In Judaism, Satan is God's employee. He can only do what God allows. He has an ugly job, but hey someone has to do it :) We do not have angels that have free will -- there is no rebellion by Satan. All of that is Chrsitian based theology, not Jewish.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
The point is that The Accuser is a very different sort of entity in Judaism than in Christianity. In Judaism, Satan is God's employee. He can only do what God allows. He has an ugly job, but hey someone has to do it :) We do not have angels that have free will -- there is no rebellion by Satan. All of that is Chrsitian based theology, not Jewish.

I don't think it is necessarily "a different entity" but rather we simply view or interpret that entity differently. (Certainly Jewish Jesus viewed him differently). Of course I would hold that the words of Jesus were Jewish and thus, in that time, there was a different viewpoint. However, as you noted, today's Jewish viewpoint would be different.

We can agree that Satan can only do within the limits of permission by God as depicted in Job. (Again, another point of agreement)

That he is God's employee, IMV, that becomes more of an interpretation since there is no scripture that I know of that specifically says that he is an employee but rather he is permitted to employ his capacity within the limits set by God and, IMV, according as man has erred giving Satan permission to steal, kill and destroy (as depicted in Job)

I view the "free will" differently. My view is simply they don't have permission to exercise free will but not that they don't have it. Like a cashier who does not have permission to exercise free will in the company safe but still has free will. Thus, there is no redemption for Satan (a Christ follower viewpoint) since he violated the constraints of God.

Thank you for your input.
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
Yes... we can agree that Satan is the accuser... another agreement in our faiths. Certainly your position is that Satan is there to oppose man... I also agree so "another agreement in our faiths".

However... we definitely disagree in our viewpoints on whether he is just opposing man or is he also the opposer of God.
The entire underlying idea that anyone can "oppose" God in any meaningful sense is a vestige of idolatry. The whole "angels who rebelled against God" thing is also heretical.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
The entire underlying idea that anyone can "oppose" God in any meaningful sense is a vestige of idolatry. The whole "angels who rebelled against God" thing is also heretical.
Yet, man can oppose God. (not that they would win)

I'm not sure what is classified as heretical although I know some things can be.
 
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