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Missing history? - so much for the internet!

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Mock Turtle, Aug 17, 2019.

  1. Mock Turtle

    Mock Turtle Compassion, understanding, and tolerance.
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    Trying to recall events in the past one would imagine is made easier by using the internet. Not so it seems, since at least two incidents I can recall quite vividly were rather difficult to find, and impossible in one case - one with a bit of luck (the first).

    These were - an explosion aboard a vessel in Souda Bay, Crete in 1979, where a fire eventually caused an explosion as the vessel was unloading its cargo, and killing six crew members. I was on my way to Souda Bay when I felt a buzz going around the bus and another passenger informed me about what had happened. Which I saw when I arrived - shattered windows and other damage.

    skipshistorie

    The second incident, of which I can find nothing (and can't remember the year), is where some deaths occurred due to the collapse of the ladder/walkway down from Montenvers to the glacier below (Mer de Glace) in France, and which we had used a year or so earlier probably.

    Is the second an example of selective history for commercial reasons - burying bad news along with the dead - or just lack of interest?

    Anyone else can't find a piece of their past?
     
  2. beenherebeforeagain

    beenherebeforeagain Rogue Animist
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    Or, it could be that you are "remembering" things that did not happen, and therefore are looking for things that are not recorded by history.

    There's an awful lot of evidence that this sort of thing does happen to people fairly often, for a variety of reasons. The Mandela Effect is an example. See False Memory article at wikipedia as a start...

    False memory - Wikipedia
     
  3. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    Not every tragedy is going to be on the internet. Especially those that occurred before it existed. Someone will have had enough interest to write it up somewhere. And if you cannot remember the date of an relatively minor event even if it is on the net you may not be able to find it.
     
  4. Curious George

    Curious George Veteran Member

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    Not really into mountain climbing but it appears there was a fatal incident "due to erosion" in 2001 and the route was altered because of that. Prior to 1988 there were no ladders so that should narrow your search somewhat. I am guessing you would have more luck if you spoke french and Italian. Perhaps if you can give more information we can help you search.

    That said, I don't think you can jump to the conclusion that this is burying the dead for commercial reasons.
     
  5. Stevicus

    Stevicus Well-Known Member
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    This reminds of a joke from Steve Martin's old stand-up routine:


    “The public has a short memory. That's why all these big stars do these crazy, terrible things and two years later they're back in the biz, you know. 'Cause the public has a short memory. Let me give you a little test, okay? This is my thesis -- the public has a short memory and, like-- How many people remember, a couple of years ago, when the Earth blew up? How many people? See? So few people remember. And you would think that something like that, people would remember. But NOOO! You don't remember that? The Earth blew up and was completely destroyed? And we escaped to this planet on the giant Space Ark? Where have you people been? And the government decided not to tell the stupider people 'cause they thought that it might affect-- [dawning realization, looks around] Ohhhh! Okay! Uh, let's move on!”
     
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  6. Mock Turtle

    Mock Turtle Compassion, understanding, and tolerance.
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    I am well aware of false memories, but I tend to disagree with some of these assumptions that all memories might be suspect. I have many vivid memories that have not changed in their essential nature from when they happened - and from age three onwards.

    The problem with the second incident is that I recall seeing the incident mentioned in a French newspaper, whilst I was on a climbing holiday there. My French was not that good but I did know what mort meant (dead), and there was a photograph. I might have been mistaken as to where it occurred but I doubt it. But I can't remember what was entailed in getting down to the glacier - just ladders or something else. As I recall, I only visited that part twice - once with some friends as we explored the glacier (1980s), and secondly on my own when I had a leg in plaster after breaking my ankle on another mountain (1978, and entailing a helicopter rescue). On that occasion I didn't obviously descend to the glacier as I was using crutches.

    I'm sure memories can be invented, or changed substantially, and I have evidence of at least a few, but as I said, some memories just stick - either because they are so traumatic or they perhaps have much meaning or both.
     
    #6 Mock Turtle, Aug 18, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2019
  7. Mock Turtle

    Mock Turtle Compassion, understanding, and tolerance.
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    True. I suppose it is a bit much to expect all such incidents to have made it to the internet by now, although I would have thought both would have made the front pages at the time - both involving tragic deaths. The second incident was possibly in the mid to late 1980s.
     
  8. Mock Turtle

    Mock Turtle Compassion, understanding, and tolerance.
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    As mentioned above, it was possibly before 1988, so the probability or some kind of walkway is likely - and it collapsing. The glacier has retreated so much since the 1970s (my first visit was in 1978) so as to be almost unrecognisable - and getting more dangerous for climbers. Ta, Global Warming! Searching for the history of Montenvers and the Mer de Glace hasn't shown up anything although perhaps I need to use different search engines - and perhaps in French as you said.

    Alpine climbing routes crumble as climate crisis continues
     
  9. Mock Turtle

    Mock Turtle Compassion, understanding, and tolerance.
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    Perhaps I have either mistaken the date or what I read - I would have thought the second link would have mentioned something (or the first) :

    La Mer de glace, d'hier à aujourd'hui.

    Evolution of Access Routes to High Mountain Refuges of the Mer de G...

    Found it, and not as bad as I thought. Several injured, two dead, and it was the walkway to the ice cave below Montenvers that collapsed (19th August 1987, if my French is still there a wee bit):

    Remontées mécaniques - Vallée de Chamonix
    Chamonix 74 (grotte Mer de glace le 17 août 1987, le 19 août la passerelle cède, 2 morts .. Ouf)
     
    #9 Mock Turtle, Aug 18, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2019
  10. beenherebeforeagain

    beenherebeforeagain Rogue Animist
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    I don't disagree, but I suggested it as a alternative to consider rather than some conspiracy to hide what, from your description was a fairly minor incident involving a fairly risky activity. Over the years there have been many accidents involving mountain climbing and glaciers. Coverage may be lacking where you can easily find it because it was meaningful to you, whereas to the broader society, it was not as important. And as someone else pointed out, if it happened much before the internet and world wide web, it may not have gotten included yet. I find that to be the case in doing genealogical research and other historical research that I engage in.

    Just saw your later post...so you can be glad to see you weren't making it up!:)
     
  11. Mock Turtle

    Mock Turtle Compassion, understanding, and tolerance.
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    I missed it first time I looked at the article - my French having to be abandoned along with art to make way for science (which I and the two others duly failed :oops:) at school. I was mistaken about the location - being the ice cave rather than the descent to the glacier. Can't even remember if we went in the ice cave - probably did. And it shouldn't have been risky at all, being purely for tourists. A child died it seems along with the parent, and more than twenty were injured. I have rarely been wrong with something I have a distinct impression of but much is just lost to me and I don't even try to remember any of that. I do realise how common it can be to fill in the gaps.

    Anyway, thanks all for your comments.
     
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