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Featured Missing Gospels?

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by SalixIncendium, Aug 13, 2017.

  1. SalixIncendium

    SalixIncendium Resident Hermit
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    It has been alleged by Bible conspiracy theorists that there are gospels that were submitted to be included in the Bible, but were decided not to be included because they did not portray Jesus as divine, but as a man. These include Gospel of Peter, the Gospel of Mary, and the Gospel of Judas, of which fragments have allegedly been found. Others supposed to have gone completely missing include the Gospel of Matthias, the Gospel of Perfection, the Gospel of the Seventy, the Dialogue of the Savior, the Gospel of the Twelve, the Gospel of the Hebrews, the Gospel of the Nazarenes, the Gospel of Bartholomew, the Secret Gospel of Mark, and the Gospel of Eve.

    What are your thoughts on a group of men deciding rather than to include all gospels in the holy writ, to simply discard these gospels. Do you think this may have had a significant impact on Christianity as it is today?


    Edited to remove the "First Council of Nicaea" reference because @Augustus is correct.
     
    #1 SalixIncendium, Aug 13, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2017
  2. Augustus

    Augustus the Unreasonable

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    Nicaea :clapping: Didn't :clapping: Decide :clapping: Biblical :clapping: Canon :clapping:
     
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  3. SalixIncendium

    SalixIncendium Resident Hermit
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    You are correct. I removed the reference.
     
  4. Kelly of the Phoenix

    Kelly of the Phoenix Well-Known Member

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    There are many references to texts with actual titles that didn't make it into canon, yet must be considered important enough to quote. We don't have the entire "Word of God", conspiracy or no.
     
  5. KenS

    KenS Well-Known Member

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    Then again, one could ask the question "What are your thoughts on a group of men deciding that those letters 'ARE' gospels."

    What are your thoughts?
     
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  6. SalixIncendium

    SalixIncendium Resident Hermit
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    First you would have to clarify what the difference is between a 'gospel' and a 'letter' (aside from the obvious that one is in the Bible and one is not).
     
  7. DavidFirth

    DavidFirth Well-Known Member

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    I believe the Holy Spirit ultimately decided scripture by inspiring men to write it. It was not arbitrarily decided by a group of men, but men moved by the Spirit chose the Biblical canon.

    "Extra gospels" that were rejected were rejected because they were not inspired by the Spirit of God. Of course unbelievers don't believe that but unbelievers have no business deciding what is and is not scripture, anyway, so what they think about what they don't believe doesn't matter.
     
  8. Augustus

    Augustus the Unreasonable

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    Should also be noted that the process took centuries and was largely organic rather than being a centralised top-down decision by a small group of people.

    There are numerous Churches that were independent of each other and existed outwith the political control of any 1 empire. While there are some differences in their canons, they contain consensus on many canonical texts including which Gospels to include.

    Any text requires decisions about what to include and what to leave out, with the Bible these decisions cannot really be attributed to any single individual or group though. It was really a process operating without central control.
     
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  9. SalixIncendium

    SalixIncendium Resident Hermit
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    Given there is one Bible (granted numerous translations) there had to be a consensus somewhere along the line or it would still be evolving.
     
  10. DavidFirth

    DavidFirth Well-Known Member

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    Actually, the Catholic version includes several books not included in the Protestant version so there are two versions of the Bible at least. Also, the Catholic version is structured differently.
     
  11. SalixIncendium

    SalixIncendium Resident Hermit
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    According to this article, the Protestant version has exactly the same information as the Hebrew Bible, but has just organized the 24 books of the Old Testament into 39.

    Why are Protestant and Catholic Bibles different?

    Yes, there are additional books in the Catholic Bible, but it is in addition to the Hebrew Bible, so the original writ is included.
     
  12. syncretic

    syncretic Veteran Member

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    Authorship matters. The apostles of Jesus are included, and Paul is a apostle mystic, basically.

    They were working within the framework of the Nazarene 》 church, to other church, and the texts had to match the basic teachings and authority of this church.
    Jesus is the high priest of the order of Melchizedek, and not any book could be included in this belief system. If anything, the bible contains quite a bit of text, considering that everything has to comply to the beliefs.

    The later churches basically used or added within a generally accepted group of books, this explains the differences in apocrypha reading, so forth.

    The text parallels the beliefs, not informs them.
     
    #12 syncretic, Aug 13, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2017
  13. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon Well-Known Member
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    Unfortunately the authorship of the gospels remains unknown, with the evidence indicating that they were edited and added to over a period after the apostles died with a likely earlier simpler gospel primarily written by the early church fathers. Based on the progressive relationship between the synoptic gospels Matthew, Mark, and Luke I believe the earliest gospel was a simpler biography. The problem includes some of Paul's letters which are most likely not his. This a more important process than the actual final selection of the canon.

    Assignment of the authorship is a likely consequence of the church fathers knowledge of the apostles, and to give each authority,

    I believe the evolution of the gospels and the final determination of what is the canon was done by mostly non-Hebrew Greek and Roman Church Fathers. There is a strong Hellenist influence by Paul, Augustine and Irenaeus.

    There is historical value in the books and letters excluded from the canon, and I can understand from a practical perspective why many were excluded.

    I believe it is more important to understand the the evolution and editing of the canon by the early church fathers. This determined what the final selection.
     
    #13 shunyadragon, Aug 13, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2017
  14. Augustus

    Augustus the Unreasonable

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    There are more than that: Catholic, Protestant, Anglican, Eastern Orthodox, Ethiopian Orthodox, etc.

    A consensus, yes, but one that developed over a long period of time rather than being the result of any one specific decision by any one group of people.

    In pre-modern times with limited communication means, no printing press, etc, even if they had wanted to, it was very hard for a central authority to impose their will over vast territories. For example, Nicaea made pronouncements on the Arian controversy, yet this hardly put an end to the issue which continued on for centuries.
     
  15. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    ^ What he said,

    and, sadly, apparently needs to be said over and over and over and ...​
     
  16. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    Calling any non-canonical work 'gospel' biases and distorts the discussion.
     
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  17. SalixIncendium

    SalixIncendium Resident Hermit
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    Okay, I can see how one can argue that there is more than one Bible, but they are largely the same Bible, with some omissions and additions, none having to do with the gospels. But we are straying from the original topic which addresses the gospels, not the Bible as a whole. I am not aware of any Christian Bibles that do not contain all four gospels or any denominations that have added any.
     
  18. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    People believe all manner of things.

    Many of those who have studied the subject suggest, instead, what has been called the Q-source (although I tend to be a Goodacre fan).
     
  19. SalixIncendium

    SalixIncendium Resident Hermit
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    *points to the first three posts in the thread*
     
  20. SalixIncendium

    SalixIncendium Resident Hermit
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